Lets Talk Column Packing

[BoomTown]

I'm so new at this that you old timers ought to hang a 'wet paint' sign on me. But, Just for giggles, I have used 1/4" stones picked up in stream beds below Rocky Mountain Glaciers for packing a 1.5"x14" copper 'reflux' column. The stones are mostly white, which I assume to be quartz, some with little slivers of gold lacing through them. BTW, The trout caught in the stream tasted just fine!

The drink is still in the cask, the stones have been moved to a baggie and replaced with 3/8"x1/4" pinches of copper tubing. I'm still tinkering with trying to create a simple packing material that I can drop out and boil to clean it now and then.

Any thoughts?

Boom

[thecroweater]

Croweater Its likely your meter is off just a little if you are reading above azeoptrope. An easy was to see if you are making above 96.5 it to test it again after 24 hrs at a corrected temp. It will absorb moisture from the air falling back to 96% There is no reason we can not achieve higher ABV. We just cant keep it.

ah ha of cause mystery solved . Yes checked it and re checked it with a number of instruments then let it air and re checked it,hmm back to azeo, thought I was going nuts

[myles]

Other than for experimental reasons I can't see why you would ever want to remove the packing. If you wish to clean it you can just backflush with water from top to bottom whilst it is still in the column.
Now with stainless packing, a removeable section of sacrafficial copper is a reasonable idea.

[emptyglass]

Other than for experimental reasons I can't see why you would ever want to remove the packing.

[emptyglass]

Not sure of the viability of this, but I was planning to make a 3 plate column, but used it for a packed section, as per the above post.

I have another 900mm (1 yard) of 4" to make into a plated column.

Given how well a 600mm packed section worked, I'm wonering if crows suggestion of using a 3 plate still with a packed section would work for a good neutral.
The rub is, this time I am thinking of trying a 3 plate (seive) and a 3'/900mm section of packed scoria/volcanic rock.

The 3' section will have 3" gap between the top of the packing and the bottom of the deflag, as per my imagination.

Any thoughts?

[King Of Hearts]

What and how much would you pack a 4 in dia x 2 ft column with for a whiskey?

[emptyglass]

No mate, this is a plan to try and make a small-ish keg based whiskey still, that with a quick flick of the triclamps can make a really good neutral. Based on doing a run in a few hours or less, to a high quality for both flavored stuff and neutral.

I was very pleased with the results some common stone gave as packing. But don't tell anyone, ok?

[myles]

Not sure of the viability of this, but I was planning to make a 3 plate column, but used it for a packed section, as per the above post.

I have another 900mm (1 yard) of 4" to make into a plated column.

Given how well a 600mm packed section worked, I'm wonering if crows suggestion of using a 3 plate still with a packed section would work for a good neutral.
The rub is, this time I am thinking of trying a 3 plate (seive) and a 3'/900mm section of packed scoria/volcanic rock.

The 3' section will have 3" gap between the top of the packing and the bottom of the deflag, as per my imagination.

Any thoughts?

Seems reasonable to me. I am thinking about something simmilar myself, but my packed section will be off to the side. Slightly off topic, are you bothering to put a drain on the dephlegmator so you drain the coolant completely, or do you just leave a little bit in there between runs?

[emptyglass]

Yeah, off topic but I make sure I install the bottom input on the reflux condenser to meet up with the bottom header plate.
When I turn my pump off, it all drains back to my tank, unless I leave a valve closed.

Means you have to fit the plates with enough room to make a flange and enough room for the clamp (if you use an easyflange) and enough room for any plumbing fittings that are going to be used and not interfere with the triclamp operation.

Gee, that sounded worse than it is.

The biggie I guess, is the cooling system is seperate to the distilation system. You can use locktite, teflon, platic, rubber, or anything you like on a cooling system. You can leave the coolant system full, just like your car, for as long as you need.

[King Of Hearts]

My thinking is when the vapor turns back into liquid it needs somewhere to rest so it doesn't get smeared with less purified liquid below it. That's what I think is happening with the rocks, having little nooks and crevices to hold it until it turns back into vapor, each time moving higher up the lighter and more pure it gets.

[thecroweater]

Good point KOH and very likely I think

[emptyglass]

Good point KOH and very likely I think

[mash rookie]

My thinking is when the vapor turns back into liquid it needs somewhere to rest so it doesn't get smeared with less purified liquid below it. That's what I think is happening with the rocks, having little nooks and crevices to hold it until it turns back into vapor, each time moving higher up the lighter and more pure it gets.

Thats a pretty good discription KOH. The reason that lava works well is the greater surface area and dull surface that allows liquid to weep instead of drip. Cling? Kind of like the opposite of waxing your car and watching water bead up. With less dripping there is less channeling and greater evaporation cycles in a given space.

When you distill to a high ABV in a packed column you are doing a better job of separating fractions.
There is less smearing in the hearts. Flavor congeners are not stripped, just held back until the tails are taken. Whiskey flavored alcohol does not stay in the still or magically disappear.

I can make neutral with my UJ batch if I distill to 96 and only blend hearts. I can make whiskey in a neutral still by blending the tails before oaking.

Commercial whiskey distilleries run continuous stills and have to take off at 150p to ensure tails are there for flavor. Vodka is made from grain but distilled to 96% NGS. Neutral Grain Spirits.

[King Of Hearts]

My thinking is when the vapor turns back into liquid it needs somewhere to rest so it doesn't get smeared with less purified liquid below it. That's what I think is happening with the rocks, having little nooks and crevices to hold it until it turns back into vapor, each time moving higher up the lighter and more pure it gets.

Thats a pretty good discription KOH. The reason that lava works well is the greater surface area and dull surface that allows liquid to weep instead of drip. Cling? Kind of like the opposite of waxing your car and watching water bead up. With less dripping there is less channeling and greater evaporation cycles in a given space.

When you distill to a high ABV in a packed column you are doing a better job of separating fractions.
There is less smearing in the hearts. Flavor congeners are not stripped, just held back until the tails are taken. Whiskey flavored alcohol does not stay in the still or magically disappear.

I can make neutral with my UJ batch if I distill to 96 and only blend hearts. I can make whiskey in a neutral still by blending the tails before oaking.

Commercial whiskey distilleries run continuous stills and have to take off at 150p to ensure tails are there for flavor. Vodka is made from grain but distilled to 96% NGS. Neutral Grain Spirits.

Yes, and after making my first batch of hook rum I saw what Arroyo was talking about, the different fractions having good and not so good flavors and how to blend them into a good product, it's not all linear, and this is just one part of the art of making a great product.

[emptyglass]

I can make neutral with my UJ batch if I distill to 96 and only blend hearts. I can make whiskey in a neutral still by blending the tails before oaking.

From what I've observed, UJ can be relativly easily turned into neutral spirit.
But rum washes seem to have some flavor that is hard to strip. That is, if its a thick, molasses rum.

A lighter rum base might strip to naked a bit easier.

I agree koh, its not all linear.

[King Of Hearts]

I can make neutral with my UJ batch if I distill to 96 and only blend hearts. I can make whiskey in a neutral still by blending the tails before oaking.

From what I've observed, UJ can be relativly easily turned into neutral spirit.
But rum washes seem to have some flavor that is hard to strip. That is, if its a thick, molasses rum.

A lighter rum base might strip to naked a bit easier.

I agree koh, its not all linear.

I think because the different compounds hang around certain weights, however slight they may be. There must be a lot of them.

[BokaBakla]

I use chore boy copper scrubbers.. They fit perfectly down a 2" pipe and sell in bulk (36 to a box).. I got lucky and found a box of returns- got the whole thing for 23 dollars

The height of my column is the key to getting 190 I noticed.. Guys around here who claim 190 but they can't actually make it

I went with a column after reading your posts on the sexy girl.. I was worried about tails smearing into the body- happy with what I ended up with.. My column with packing is around 6 feet total and insulated

Oh yeah also put a centering ring about half way down

[mash rookie]

I will note BB that you can make whiskey with your neutral column. Pot stillers are going to beat me up. But.... You can. Fractions do not magically disappear. You just take them off in cleaner cuts with less smearing. Careful blending of tails will bring all the flavor right back into your drink.

[heartcut]

What MR said. I do one run full flavor whiskey and rum with a (detuned) reflux still. Put in more packing and more reflux and more waiting and it'll pull in the 90s.

[mash rookie]

OOPS, forgot to paste this on the previous post. One reason behind my research is to shorten the height necessary to achieve 96.5%. I have done it in 36". The reflux ratio was roughly double my normal. Take off rate dropped to 1500 ml an hour as compared to 3000-4000ml an hour when collecting to 93%-94%. My goal is to make 96.5% at 3000 ml an hour which is typical speed for a four inch column.


Heartcut I make UJ with the same unit I make neutral with, I run it faster and include more tails in my blending. Its as good as anything I have made with my plated fute. Maybe better.

[BokaBakla]

Like all the experiments- you make a lot of sense.. When people were saying they had no tails with the flute- I was thinking the exact same thing.. Well where did it go

I know a 6' column with scrubbers is good- but not everyone can run with a column like that.. 3 feet doesn't sound too bad.. Got a wash coming up on Wednesday- I might try half column and see if 95 is possible on birdwatchers..

Good to know you can run the tails in for flavor.. I just do neutral right now- probably play around with it more next year.. Find your posts really informative though

[Druss]

Very interesting topic, as an alternative to lava rock what about expanded clay pellets? They come in different sizes, that can be purchased on size so for example small columns could use 1/4in and the larger ones 1/2 inch size.
this is what they look like

Expanded clay aggregate, is a lightweight ceramic shell with honeycomb core produced by firing natural clay to temperatures of 1100 - 1200 °C in a rotating kiln. The pellets are rounded in shape and fall from the kiln in a grade of approximately 0 - 32 mm with an average dry bulk density of approximately 350 kg/m³. The material is sieved into a number of different grades to suit the application.
With the advantage of light weight, high permeability, high durability and excellent sound and thermal insulating properties, expanded clay is a good 'all round' aggregate for use in an a variety of applications. It is also an environmentally friendly product composed mostly of naturally occurring clay, is not susceptible to chemical attack, rot or frost and has a long life span. The lightweight nature of the expanded clay pellet make it an ideal solution when constructing over weak soil deposits or reducing the load behind old and susceptible structure. The air pockets within the pellet provide excellent thermal resistance when used as underfloor insulation within solid floor construction. The expanded clay pellets are also used extensively for the manufacture of Lightweight blocks and frequently used in water filtration systems due to their high surface area.

Dunno but sounds ideal

[myles]

well my packing arrived. I am not ready to use it yet, but it is waiting for me.
An 8kg sack of Pumice (lava rock but lighter than scoria) - it was advertised as 10mm to 15mm, but it looks like there is some smaller stuff in there also. A garden sieve will sort it out by size.

I was going to use drilled pumice pellets (aquarium filter media) but the cost and minimum order was prohibitive. I am sure this will work just as well.

[mash rookie]

Those look great Myles. Have you decided on your column size? I am wondering if we could get azeo at full speed if we used 48”, the same vapor speed and a reduced reflux ratio.

I am going to work on the glass columns today. One is getting a plate tree and one I will keep for more testing of different packing materials. Damn I wish I was retired and had more time.

The fired clay pellets look good too. I am going to head off and google them.

[myles]

I did consider the expanded clay but ruled it out. The manufacturing process creates a ceramic shell filled with a honeycomb of SEALED bubbles. I think that no moisture or vapour can penetrate the shell, so the only surface available for our purposes will be the outer surface of each ball. I could be wrong though and the shell might be permeable.

From 1 of the suppliers:

"Expanded clay is manufactured from naturally occurring clay. This is quarried and then sent to a rotary kiln where it is expanded at a temperature of 1150oC. The moisture trapped in the clay is forced to turn to steam creating countless tiny air bubbles surrounded by a hardened shell. It is these sealed pockets which account for the light weight of expanded clay."

MR I have about a cubic foot of pumice (it was delivered for £30 for 8kg so the price is good too) so am going to use it in a 3" or 4" VM. However, I have something else in mind also.

[mash rookie]

I was not able to find a US pumice supplier. You got a great deal. After looking at several google pages about the expanded clay I felt like they would have to be crushed to be useful. noting that they are used in hydroponic gardening, I will watch for them in garden centers to see if they come in large enough sizes for crushing. I have other things to test first. They are interesting. I still would like to try your sugestion of trying mineral wool. I have some rigid two inch sheets of it. I would cut it into one inch squares before filling my column.

[Druss]

the clay pellets are permeable, just soak in water overnight and you will see, another alternative could be perlite as its expanded volcanic glass, i would say it has very similar properties to pumace, but with less impurities.

[frozenthunderbolt]

another alternative could be perlite as its expanded volcanic glass, i would say it has very similar properties to pumace, but with less impurities.

can also buy sintered glass for quarium filters - very similar

[mash rookie]

I am pleased that this thread is generating fresh ideas and thinking. Innovative deigns come from being willing to throw things out there to see what will stick. There are no silly ideas guys.(okay maybe a few) We may find something that would have never been considered to be the next great evolution.
Keep the ideas coming.

edit to add; Hookline had sugested the clay balls and perilite on EG's thread and I did not remember. We need experienced members being open minded as well as new guys with fresh ideas.
Feel free to jump in with any tests you guys feel will help further the cause. We are all in this together!

[thecroweater]

Has anyone tried coke yet, this is a medium that really makes sense to me for a whole range of reasons but I haven't had the opportunity to try this yet myself most certainly will in the near future though