gin blends

[devotus]

A guy that owns a micro distillery and his only products are gin and absinthe.

He is in it because he started out raising herbs for oils and so the natural progression.

He makes a lot of his herbs but for absinthe he grows his own worm-wood. He helped found the "Worm Wood Society".

He also has a high review of his absinthe.

Hope I learn a few things and can pass them on!

Joe from Ridge is a nice guy, I haven't tried his gin or Absinthe but I heard it's an acquired taste product (the Ridge verte) some like it and some bag the hell out of it. I wouldn't pay too much heed to the reviews of it on WW society. I'd like to give it a try one day though.

If you do learn something from him I'd be very interested on any inside info.

[sparky marky]

It was at 40%, a small amount of 96% brought it up to 43% and BAM! Clear as a bell!
43% is a better abv anyway

[Odin]

If you use lemon skins, orange skins, any fruit, 43% is the best ABV. Brings out the fruity tones in a gin best.

Odin.

[sparky marky]

I'm ready to make some more gin this week!
Here is my current recipe which is super popular with family!

Gin vapour infused

5 liters 40% neutral
75g juniper berries 
10g coriander seed
1.2g piece of cinnamon stick
10 black  peppercorns
2g lime zest
3g clementine zest
4 basil leaves
3.5g orris root
1 crushed green cardamom pod
1/2tsp Angelica root
5 crushed almonds
1 tsp chopped dill

I'm thinking of including a few grams of elderflower from the garden and some cucumber (like Hendricks) but how do I go about getting the cucumber in there???? In with the botanicals in the vapour path? Maybe in the pot? How much cucumber to go for? I was thinking of using about 20g... Any thoughts?

[Odin]

Sorry, no Idea!

[sparky marky]

Thanks anyway odin!!
Iv decided to just go for it tonight! Iv just turned on the heat to my stovetop flavour still. Iv tossed 22g of fresh cucumber into the vapour path with my other botanicals... Il post results later...

[jadohe]

Thanks to everyone for some very usefull information.
I post this from Spain where I am working on my first gin recipe. I will use all the given advice so far.

Here are some questions from a novice gin maker to you expert guys

1 - I have alread built a reflux column and produced refined 95% neutral spirit from wine (we have a lot over here) - What is the real difference between starting a recipe with pure neutral spirit vs dilluted? I would think that pure alcohol would extract better the essencial oils from the botanics... (could be wrong)

2 - I am initially thinking of macerate the botanics. In your experience, would you crush the junipper berries in the maceration process? Wouldn´t that introduce a too strong flavour or even smell?

Thanks very much in advance! -

[Odin]

Genebra! Or is it Ginebra in Spanish?

I wouldn't macerate in 95% alcohol. Some guidelines I can give:
- macerate in 60% abv and don't crush the berries (that is, if you plan to distill with herbs/berries in the boiler). Dilute to 30% before running.
- macerate in 43% and crush the berries. Distill.

Odin.

[jadohe]

Genebra! Or is it Ginebra in Spanish?

I wouldn't macerate in 95% alcohol. Some guidelines I can give:
- macerate in 60% abv and don't crush the berries (that is, if you plan to distill with herbs/berries in the boiler). Dilute to 30% before running.
- macerate in 43% and crush the berries. Distill.

Odin.

It is GINEBRA.
I was planning to macerate berries with other botanics as learnt from some of the recipes published in this forum.
I will follow you advice and macerate at 60% abv together with the reset of the botanics.

Thanks!

Javier

[Odin]

Will you only macerate, or also distill afterwards?

Odin.

[jadohe]

I am thinking of producing london dry style. I still dont know if i will get better results macerating vs vapor infusing.
The initial idea is to macerate the botanics and berries for not longer than 24 hours and then redistile. That is how I come tomthis question of macerating on 95 vs 40-60 abv .

Once i get a bit of expertise on that i will give it a try to the vapour infusion...

Thanks!

[Odin]

The trick in a dry style gin is to distill with herbs (vapour or maceration) at a very high abv. Soak for a week with crushed berries at 60%, filter out herbs, distill. But distill without diluting. That's the trick in making a "dry" gin. To redistill at high abv. Actually 70% is a pretty normal percentage for redistilling a dry styler. I personally find the dry taste it gives ... not pleasant at all. Not to say ... well, let's not say that. Taste is about personal preferences, right? But anyhow, that's the way to approach it.

Please be aware that redistilling at those high abv's does give a safety hazard!!! Giving it a second thought ... please don't go there.

Odin.

[jadohe]

Thanks Odin,

This is becoming very interesting. For each of your answers I come across more questions
In order to avoid boring everyone else, shall I send you an email with what I am trying to reach so that you can give me your thoughts or I rather post it here?

Thanks

Javier

[Odin]

Javier,

I can't imagine the topic of ginebra to be boring to anyone. But that may be my flaw. Anyhow, if you feel like pm-ing, go ahead. I like to stay "on the grid" with Q's and A's, just so others can join in as well. So far the questions you asked are far from stupid.

On the contrary.

Odin.

[Braz]

Lets keep the discussion public. It is not boring to me.

[jadohe]

Ok. Perfect! Lets make this topic a lively one!

Basicly I come from a large family of gin-tonic maniacs! ... Mainly bombay shapire and befeater funs! lately the also,lie bulldog which is quite expensive around here!! Need to cut down gin costs by a lot, if possible without cutting down the number of friends

The challenge therefore consists of making a decent bombay alike home made gin! An important issue being that I need to replicate results whenever required obtaining similar end product.

I already have all the required instruments and gadgets. Built a cactus like copper reflux colum that works pretty well and provides me with enough neutral spirit to start. So now I am ready with the more artistic part and all the questions flow after your comments (Odin)

- I understand the satefy issue regarding redistilling at 95avg - did not think of that. 25 l of pure ethanol are a bit of a bomb. So, if I macerate on 50 avg ( much safer), should I macerate for a shorter or longer period? How does water affects this process? If maceration time is longer, does crushing the berries help?

- regarding the berries. In order to replicate the formula in the future I was thinking of using dry berries from the same local store and use then without crushing them for a more uniform use. It seems to meet that if you crush them it is difficult to control flavour out of them. How would youndo it?

- about the rest of the botanics. I am planning to start trying one of the recipes published here. In order to give it a dry but light aroma and taste, I am planning to reduce berries in favour of other ingredients more citrus like. Another idea that comes around is to macerate only berries and redistile using a vapor infusion bag with the rest of the botanics. Does it make any sense?

- and a last basic question, would you remove the berries and botanics before redestile? would that give you a more uniform output through out the process?

Thanks!!!

[Odin]

Not straightforward answers I can give you. It all depends on ... what you want.

If a Bombay Saphire is your thing, here is a link in which contains info on that recipe. Read Old Dog's posts. His wife likes this and she is Dutch, so it should be fine!

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=10203

Trick to a Bombay style is you vapour infuse all of the ingredients.

If you decide to go the other way and distill with herbs/berries in the boiler, you will get a fuller taste. But if it is Gin/Tonic you are after, that may not be needed.

More citrus is okay, especially in a Gin/Tonic. Saves you on having to buy lemons!

But ... not so much citrus as in Violent Blue's original post. Much less!

If you want to partially distill with berries in the boiler and then vapour infuse the rest that's okay. Pretty much everything can be put in the boiler. Only citrus ... is better vapour infused. You could distill with the berries in the boiler. You could vapour infuse. First is heavier, second is lighter. In whisky terms, just to make a comparison, think "single malt" vs. "blended".

If you macerate and take out herbs/berries before distilling, go for a maceration time of 1 to 2 weeks. If you distill with herbs/berries in the boiler, just macerate for in between 12 and 24 hours prior to distilling.

Always buy fresh juniper if you can! It gives off twice the amount of taste. If not quadrupel. Dried variety gives of much more tanines.

Macerate at 43% with crushed berries. Or macerate with uncrushed berries at 60% abv, then dilute to 30% and distill. But the only time you don't crush berries is when you boil them in the boiler. If you don't boil the berries in your boiler, always crush.

Okay, here is what you should really do: type in something like "genever" or "geneva". I have some post with the abundance of info you might be looking for.

Or take a shortcut. Add 20 grams of lightly crushed berries and 10 grams of ground coriander and 3 grams of citrus peel to 1 liter of 60%. Let it sit for one week. Filter. Dilute to 30%. Distill.

It will probably give you just what you want in your Tonic!

Good luck, Odin.

[jadohe]

Thanks Odin! Very usefull.
I will follow your advice and get back to you if i come across more question or to give you feedback.

Javier

[Odin]

Feedback is always welcome! You have started on a very interesting voyage, doing ginebra's. Please let me know how it turns out for you.

Odin.

[elektrosport]

Glad this thread was revived, never saw it before..

So much useful info here!


Cheers,
Elektrosport

[junkyard dawg]

The other day I drug out all my gear to strip the big fermenter full of sugarhead. At the end of the day, I had 8 gallons or so of low wines.

I added another bunch of low wines from a oat/rye/2 row malt and some heads/tails from the mezcal journey. It was basically all the bits that are sitting around in the closet plus a lot of nice sugarhead. Anyhow, I ran some of it like that. Has a very nice flavor. I kept back 5 gallons of the low wines mix that I tossed a bunch of botanicals into. I didn't measure anything, just added what looked like the right amount... I used black pepper, juniper, coriander, dried lemon peel and dried orange peel. It will be good...

Thats not useful to anyone, but hopefully this is...

Citrus is often sprayed with wax. When using citrus in these kinds of recipes, it is very good to find unwaxed fruit. It may mean you have to go into one of those hippie organic groceries depending on where you are... better if you can find it right off the tree, but either way, that wax on most commercial citrus is, I believe, responsible for much of the cloudiness that can be encountered with a finished gin. I only have a few trials under the belt, but its been my experience that unwaxed citrus gives much better results than waxed.

Curious to hear your thoughts on that...

[Odin]

Yes, fruit/fruitskins are best bought at a bio shop!

Curious how the black pepper works out for ya, JD!

Odin.

[junkyard dawg]

Its only a few peppercorns. I honestly can't taste it, but it seems to fit the flavor profile I like. I have not tried without it, but I really like what I get when I use a little.

Like others, I really like gin. I like the drink and I love to make it. Its the perfect home distiller project.... The results have almost always been incredible.

[jadohe]

It happens that I have an orange and a lemon tree in my garden and therefore they have no wax at all. Oranges and lemons are polished in the farm so that people see them more attractive Anny how, itis a very good point!

As for my first recipe, I had a go this weekend to my gin recipe. Basicly I took "Slow & Steady"'s recipe and try to follow it. Unfortunately I thought his recipe had too much juniper berries and reduced the amount. The result is that the gin does only smell and taste like coriander! Not nice at all! Need to try again!

Thanks Odin for your advice anyway. It was very usefull. I start to feel more comfortable litle by little.
I am also planning of building a gin head so that I can start to try vapour infusion.

J.

[jadohe]

It happens that I have an orange and a lemon tree in my garden and therefore they have no wax at all. Oranges and lemons are polished in the farm so that people see them more attractive Anny how, itis a very good point!

As for my first recipe, I had a go this weekend to my gin recipe. Basicly I took "Slow & Steady"'s recipe and try to follow it. Unfortunately I thought his recipe had too much juniper berries and reduced the amount. The result is that the gin does only smell and taste like coriander! Not nice at all! Need to try again!

Thanks Odin for your advice anyway. It was very usefull. I start to feel more comfortable litle by little.
I am also planning of building a gin head so that I can start to try vapour infusion.

J.

I have had a busy week in my shed, trying to achieve a decent result out of this gin recipe. In the second run, as soon as the coriander was reduced the juniper flavour came across. Very strong indeed! ... AND the final product got misty... Cloudy.
I asumed that it was caused by too much juniper in the recipe. In the third run, juniper was reduced again. The destilled product was very clear but got cloudy once was diluted with water. In the fourth and final go, with a severe reduction of berries, the distilled product was again very clear. Once diluted was still clear BUT once I left it overnight it got cloudy AGAIN!!

I think that two much oil from the berries is getting into the final product causing it. Can you help? Do you think this is the reason?

Here is the recipe used in the fourth and last run : 1litre of 60 neutral spirit, with 25 gr of juniper, 15 gr of coriander and the rest of the botanics in very small quantities (lemon and orange zest, cassia, almond, etc). Botanics are very crushed and macerated for 8 hours. Once filtered the spirit is redistilled obtaining 750 cc of final product. I dont take more than 750cc to ensure that no water with colour and rest of botanics are taken into the final product. Once destilled the final product is diluted to 40 %.


Can you confirm this? Thanks in advance.

[Odin]

If you filter the herbs out before distilling, macerate for 7 to 10 days. Then dilute to 30%. Distill slowly. Catch the first 20 mls and see for juniper oils. Throw them out. Collect 700 mls at around 70%. Dilute to 45%, give it 3 days rest. Taste. Give it another 5 weeks rest. Optimal.

If you distill with herbs in the boiler a 12 hour maceration is okay. But then: no filtering is needed. The herbs & berries stay in the likker/low wines.

Odin.

[HolyBear]

Here's a stupid question but its on my mind... Does "Gin" require juniper berries to be called "Gin"?

I love playing with neutral infusions. To my taste, a slight juniper is refreshing, but so are some mints. Without juniper, would it be called an infused vodka???

[Odin]

Yes, juniper is required for gin! And actually it is also required for geneva.

Odin.

[jadohe]

If you filter the herbs out before distilling, macerate for 7 to 10 days. Then dilute to 30%. Distill slowly. Catch the first 20 mls and see for juniper oils. Throw them out. Collect 700 mls at around 70%. Dilute to 45%, give it 3 days rest. Taste. Give it another 5 weeks rest. Optimal.

If you distill with herbs in the boiler a 12 hour maceration is okay. But then: no filtering is needed. The herbs & berries stay in the likker/low wines.

Odin.

Odin,

If I macerate for such a long time, shouldnt I reduce the amount of juniper berries drastically? I have been macerating for upto 48 hours with crushed berries and the result was a very green powerfull beverage. That is the reason why I decided to filter it out because I thought it had too much juniper already. If I understand correctly boiling increases the release of natural oils into the spirit.

On the other hand, shouldn I avoid crushing the berries so that less oil is released into the mix?
I would rather keep testing with short macerations time so that I can keep moving

Thanks

J.

[Odin]

There is multiple ways to handle this. Yes, macerating for a longer time is good. But for a short time and then distilling with herbs & berries in the boiler gives of more complex tastes. But if you can't do that (e.d. electrical element in boiler), macerate for a longer time. Yes, if you do that, you might want to decide to lower the amount of berries. Depends on the kind. Sorry, no straight forward answer. The fresh ones are fine. The ones you can crush between your fingers and even some oil gets out. Often the ones you buy are harder, dry. Those have more tanines to come over. In that case: don't crush, if you macerate for a longer time.

But if you can find ways to have berries & herbs in the boiler that would be perfect. Crush, macerate 12 to 24 hours, distill.

You thought taste was to strong and filtered herbs & berries out. Not necesairy. Yes, you may get over too many oils. And a cloudy drink when diluted to 45%. That means you were - in my opinion - not failing. You just got over too many tasty oils. Solution (litteraly): add 45% neutral (or 45% whiskey) until the haze disapears (at room temperature).

Often that means adding as much neutral/whiskey as you already had that base gin/genever. What you get like that? Maximum taste concentration in your gin or genever.

Odin