Guys, I'm ready to try making the jump to an all grain mash but remain a little cornfused in some areas. http://homedistiller.org/grain/wash-grain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
From the parent site:
Heat 4 kg cracked or crushed malt
as well as:
To get the same effect, you can also do a malt-extract brew (like making beer kits), then boil 1-2 kg of grains or cracked corn and add them for flavour.
The starches in the mash are about 90% soluble at 130 °F and reach maximum solublity at 149°F. Unmalted grains have their starch reserves locked in a protein matrix which prevents the enzymes from being able to physically contact the starches for conversion. Only by crushing or rolling the grains is the matrix broken up. The starches can be gelatinized (made soluble) by heat alone or by a combination of heat and enzyme action. Either way, a mash is needed to convert the soluble starches to fermentable sugars.
I have cracked corn on hand as well as a pound of Amylase enzyme. Would corn meal be a viable option as a cracked corn substitute ??
As always your input is appreciated. Maybe Big R will offer his wisdom.
FreeMountainHermit wrote:Guys, I'm ready to try making the jump to an all grain mash to take my UJSSM to the next level but remain a little cornfused in some areas. http://homedistiller.org/grain/wash-grain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
From the parent site:
Heat 4 kg cracked or crushed malt
as well as:
To get the same effect, you can also do a malt-extract brew (like making beer kits), then boil 1-2 kg of grains or cracked corn and add them for flavour.
The starches in the mash are about 90% soluble at 130 °F and reach maximum solublity at 149°F. Unmalted grains have their starch reserves locked in a protein matrix which prevents the enzymes from being able to physically contact the starches for conversion. Only by crushing or rolling the grains is the matrix broken up. The starches can be gelatinized (made soluble) by heat alone or by a combination of heat and enzyme action. Either way, a mash is needed to convert the soluble starches to fermentable sugars.
I have cracked corn on hand as well as a pound of Amylase enzyme. Would corn meal be a viable option as a cracked corn substitute ??
As always your input is appreciated. Maybe Big R will offer his wisdom.
Your not going to get any where following the summary from the parent site. That summary does not contain a complete recipe. If you read the chapter that precedes the summary you might find a complete recipe or enough info to create one.
The para graph from realbeer is confusing, taken into context with the article on their site I think they were blathering that 149 is the temp at which starches reach maximum solubility which we don't care about since our normal mashing temp will be in that range anyway. Also that unmalted grains and malted grains need to be mashed.
What you need is a good recipe that works, we have several in the tried and true section. If you are interested in learning the ins and outs of all grain, you should read through a few threads here:
Yup, been reading recipes for almost two years. Information overload is starting to set in. i'm a reader and not much of a poster.
NCHOOCH is the closest to my goal. UJSSM is my focus as stated above and I would like to do it as an all grain run and yes I could decide to not use malt and go with amylaze enzyme to convert startches to sugar.
12 gal. wash = 16.8 lbs. of corn + ? lbs. 6 row for example.
What's your experience in AG mashing ? Just wondering if there is a rule of thumb in this area.
To calculate the correct ratio of un-malted grain to malted grain is fairly simple. For each lb grain (malted and un-malted) you need 30 points of diastatic power minimum to convert all the starches to fermentable and unfermentable sugars.
So
Total number of lbs of grain * 30 = minimum DP required.
So in your case you state that you want to use 6 row. American 6 row has a diastatic power of 190. How do I kow this... I just searched my favorite local brew shop.
There is better mathematical formula but my phone limits the characters available so. I will just estimate it.
MitchyBourbon wrote:
Total number of lbs of grain * 30 = minimum DP required.
So in your case you state that you want to use 6 row. American 6 row has a diastatic power of 190. How do I kow this... I just searched my favorite local brew shop.
There is better mathematical formula but my phone limits the characters available so. I will just estimate it.
19 lbs cracked corn
4 lbs malted 6 row
That will get you there.
I will be back with a formal formula later.
MB, getting somewhere now and your time and courtesy are appreciated. the 19 lbs cracked corn and
4 lbs malted 6 row can be be used as a baseline for my inquiry. Will try in the near future when the weather breaks and check with iodine.
Any further information will be greatly appreciated. Thank you my friend.
I've not done all grain, but from everything I've read and heard the calculation is total lbs grain* 30/ DP of your malt= lbs needed to convert. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
My apologies for not getting back to you sooner, FMH.
wv_hillbilly you are correct, that is the root of what FMH is asking.
The precise equation FMH is looking for involves a known quantity of un-malted corn, an unknown quantity malted 6 row barley with a known diastatic power.
Forgive my mis-read of the amount of corn you had. You actually said 16.8 which I will round to 17. To calculate how much malted 6 row to use, use the following equation:
Assume X is the number of lbs of 6 row you need
30 is the number of diastatic points you want per lb and
190 is the number of diastatic points malted 6 row provides per lb
Then
(17 + X) * 30 = 190 * X
510 + 30X = 190X
510 = 190X - 30x
510 = 160X
510 / 160 = X
X = 3.1875 lbs malted 6 row
I don't normally go to this much effort. Normally, I would just estimate and make sure that I have a minimum of 30 DP per lb of the total grain. More than 30 is OK.
MitchyBourbon wrote:My apologies for not getting back to you sooner, FMH.
wv_hillbilly you are correct, that is the root of what FMH is asking.
Assume X is the number of lbs of 6 row you need
30 is the number of diastatic points you want per lb and
190 is the number of diastatic points malted 6 row provides per lb
Then
(17 + X) * 30 = 190 * X
510 + 30X = 190X
510 = 190X - 30x
510 = 160X
510 / 160 = X
X = 3.1875 lbs malted 6 row
I don't normally go to this much effort. Normally, I would just estimate and make sure that I have a minimum of 30 DP per lb of the total grain. More than 30 is OK.
17lbs corn X 30DPs = 510
510DPs required / 190DPs per lb. of 6 row translates into 510/190 = 2.68 lbs of 6 row barley.
Recipe breaks do to a ratio (rounded to the nearest number) of 5.5 : 1 with the DP being slightly
on the high end which is a good thing if I've read correctly.
An easier math is to just check the average DP and make sure its over 30.
(DP of malt x lbs malt)/(Total lbs grains). So if you think you want to run 20 lbs corn with 5 lbs 2 row at 130DP. (130*5)/25 = 26. Too low, need more malt.
I think most 6 row is 160. The ones Ive bought were. 190 might be distillers malt. Regardless, as long as Denny knows what he's got he can do the math,
Looks like he wants to do 12 gallon, thats how I make NCHooches too. I do it with 17 lbs corn, and 5 lbs of whatever I have, 2 row or 6 row. Works great. My process and recipe is listed in NCHooches thread somewhere. Its prolly not a bad idea to go a little high on the DP since that damn cracked corn is a mother to convert.
even at 130 for 2 row its (5*130)/22 = 30 (rounded). So i dont think, I just grab 5 lbs of malt and I know Im good. And if its 6 row I know Ive extra goodies working on the damn cracked corn chunks.
Cheers
Last edited by Jimbo on Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You are absolutely right with your approach. That is what I normally do myself. I think I may have indicated this earlier in this thread. I do believe it is good to know how to do the calculation, as it provides confidence.
He asked the question jimdo64, I just answered it. I also told him that I don't bother with the formula, I estimate and adjust.
Given that FMH assumed that the 17 lbs of cracked corn was all that need converting I would say that it is good that I did not just give him the short cut.
The formula is good to know for sure. In fact its important to use it until you have a handle on everything. The only reason I chimed in is because I saw you used 190. And I didnt want him to automatically use 190 going forward for 6 row. If its not listed, 130 for 2 row and 160 for 6 row is probably safe, but its best to get the real DP from the shop owner and do the simple calculation
I got the number 190 from the stats at my local brew shop. It's American 6 row (rahr). It's one of the most popular brands. I think I stated the source earlier in the thread. I agree, I didn't want him to think all 6 row is the same.
MitchyBourbon wrote:Actually, you have to include the weight of the 6 row too.
So (total grain bill)
Yup, I talked with BigR earlier today and he also noted that the entire grain bill must be taken into consideration.
Don't go anywhere my friend I might need ya when the weather warms up a bit. Got a new VM column to play with and I made a 7 foot liebig for my pot that needs a cleaning run in the meantime.
You time and effort in this thread has been greatly appreciated.
I would love to see more people here interested in all grain. And I apologize for dragging you through that math, its good to know but estimate and adjust is what most do.
Searching 6 row on google I see it all over the map 150-190, and 2 row 120-150.
Prolly good to err low, and if your DP is 40 avg, great, right? We're not trying to slice every penny for economics here I hope. Plus this is assuming ideal mash temp, mash ph, etc etc. Not too many new folk nail the stackup on the money.
When I first moved to West Virginia I used to sit on my neighbor's porch and sip 'shine. Some good, some not so good which sparked an interest in making corn likker.
Since then I've met an old moonshiner that makes stuff that has to be tasted to be believed it's so good but he's primarily a sugar wash guy. Just dropped off some peach this morning and it's heaven but I think the real enjoyment will lie in learning to do AGs.
Prolly good to err low, and if your DP is 40 avg, great, right? We're not trying to slice every penny for economics here I hope. Plus this is assuming ideal mash temp, mash ph, etc etc. Not too many new folk nail the stackup on the money.
Correct again, I normally do have extra, I like a lot of rye and red wheat in my bourbon.
I brew a lot of beer too. I got an amber bock that just come of age.
I use the same source as Mitchy. I calculate using 35 instead of 30 just to make sure I have enough DP. Last starting gravity was 1.061. It's working pretty well so far.
I have been reading everything I can about diastatic power and the answer is usually the same. You need 30/lb. How is it that most posted grain bills for commercial bourbons fall short of this calculation? Do they just leave some starch unconverted? My understanding is that they do not use malted rye or malted wheat.
That is an excellent question Braneman!
Part may be that they are using malts with a high DP.
Part may be that they REALLY know what they’re doing with their mash.
Perhaps liquid enzymes?
I think the 30/# is a guideline for a fair amount forgiveness in our mashing process.
And then there is the question of can you do more with less simply by letting the malts work for more time.
I recently converted corn with a 16% malt ratio. And it was corn malt. I think. I mean I’m sure it was corn malt, just not sure about the percentage. When I’m sure I’ll say so.
Good luck, I hope you find your answers!
Shouting and shooting, I can't let them catch me...
I know at Heaven Hill and at Jim Beam where I have worked that we only use the enzymes created by the malted barley for the amalase for conversions. I know Eddie and Jimmy Russell and all the other major bourbon distilleries do not. Parker and Craig Beam and others use at least 10% malted barley to achieve this. If a distillery is using less than 10% then you are exactly right my friend, they are using additional commercial enzymes. I’m always asking master distillers and distillery managers about this…I think it’s a big point of differenciation.
10% malt with no added enzymes puts their grain(s) at 300 DP!
No reason peated malted barley wont convert corn, right?
I think the smokiness might be nice
Look at about 2lbs cracked corn/5gallon I "heard" cracked corn is harder to convert than flaked so a bit more cracked should be ok
Ive never used malted grain to convert, always enzymes.
