email from Brewhaus

[blind drunk]

They probably will take down guys with larger rigs. Look at how many idiots here that have been talking about their 55 gallon fermenters?

Maybe time for a new HD Policy - no photos of jumbo home rigs no talk about really big fermentors ...

Nothing wrong with a 55 gallon fermenter as it would merely supply several boiler charges with a "hobby scale" boiler...

We all know there's nothing wrong with it, but it's the optics; optics sometimes are 9/10ths of the law.

[drinkingdog]

First thing that I'm confused about is what kind of purchase is reportable. Complete stills, still parts whether column or boilers, or just any and everything that the still manufacturers are selling. I personally am not taking this lightly. The Mile High rep said going back 3 years would generate 80 to 90 thousand customers. If that is the case that is one big chunk of tax revenue that is being avoided. You can get a lighter sentence selling pot verses liquor. The Fed's are big about enforcement of federal laws even when states and the people within them think otherwise. Look at California and medical marijuana laws Fed's went after them even though states changed their laws

[mash rookie]

There is a misconception that stills are legal to own but not operate. People are reading but hearing what they want to hear. Stills of less than one gallon are only legal to own if used for purposes other than alcohol. All others are illegal to own. Period.

Manufacturers are required to provide customer information if requested. Manufactures are NOT required to collect customer information for the TTB or maintain records on their behalf. I asked them a year ago when considering a business building stills.
They did state that I needed to assign a serial number to stills so that purchasers could apply for a license if they intended on using the still. No other requirements were requested or implied.

Retailers kepping your personal information is putting you at risk. Honest bookkeeping and paying taxes is right. Spying on folks or colecting information for the goverment is not.

[goose eye]

throwin blame around is pointless.

so im tole

[drinkingdog]

This info is at this web address.
http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/faq.shtml#s3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
If you look at the info at s4. It looks to me that it doesn't matter what you buy from a still manufacturer the federal government has the right to your info from the manufacturer

S3: I've seen ads for home distilling equipment in catalogs ("turn wine into brandy," "make your own essential oils"). Is it legal to buy and use a still like that?Under Federal rules administered by TTB, it depends on how you use the still. You may not produce alcohol with these stills unless you qualify as a distilled spirits plant (see earlier question). However, owning a small still and using it for other purposessissue allowed. You should also check with your State and local authorities - their rules may differ.A still is defined as apparatus capable of being used to separate ethyl alcohol from a mixture that contains alcohol. Small stills (with a cubic distilling capacity of a gallon or less) that are used for laboratory purposes or for distilling water or other non-alcoholic materials are exempt from our rules. If you buy a small still and use it to distill water or extract essential oils by steam or water extraction methods, you are not subject to TTB requirements. If you produce essential oils by a solvent method and you get alcohol as a by-product of your process, we consider that distilling. Even though you are using and recovering purchased alcohol, you are separating the alcohol from a mixture -distilling.Back to top

S4: What requirements are there for people who sell stills?Under regulations in part 29 of title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, TTB has the right to require manufacturers of stills to give us the name and address of each customer. If we choose to impose this requirement, we inform the manufacturer of the stills by letter.

[seabass]

Note to self: don't buy anything from a still manufacturer.

[baron4406]

Yes to the feds a law is a law. No grey area. And yes they came down hard on the pot producers even when its legal in that state. Just step back and look at the big picture. Money is very important to any federal agency, know what's even more important? Public perception. Its one thing for them to come down hard on pot producers, simply because (for now) a large percentage of America hates drugs and wants them illegal. So now they wanna start coming down hard on small time distillers? Its gonna cost a huge amount of money and resources, so what is the public gonna think if they open that door? Consider all the money problems governments have, think committing a huge amount of resources for something that will mean ZERO return on investment AND possible a huge backlash from the community at large? When that happens the public points fingers at who is responsible and let them know with their votes. THAT'S the way a politician thinks. So the extra scrutiny is just a toe in the water, and I think its all due to that awful TV show. The old rules still apply. Don't tell and DON'T SELL.

[goose eye]

Yall usein logic an government in same
sentence. Ha ha
yall don't think yall is partly to blame.
without all the new folks there wouldn't be
no show. Once again the cards is dealt it
up to you to play your hand how you see fit.

so im tole

[Bushman]

Spent the last 5 days out boating and its taken me some time to catch up on all the reading. Goose eye makes a good point, if you bought a still and are now worried about being investigated then what steps can you take to minimize the risk or as he states play your hand.

1. Don't keep large quantities on hand or find a safe place to store what you have.
2. Store your boiler and still in separate locations.
3. If they come to investigate they will probably first talk to your neighbors, we have always talked about keeping a low profile.

Sorry got off the boat late yesterday and brain is still not in full function mode but you can add to the list.

[baron4406]

Just wanted to add some observations, didn't really want to post this when it happened but here it is. When that awful TV show was on one time we had friends over who had no idea what my "other hobby" was. To my disdain they enjoyed the show, they compared to reality shows like Swamp People that had good 'ole boys in it you'd wanna sit down and have a beer with. The moonshiners are depicted as real people, and the law agents after them as soulless "bad guys" who they began to hate as the show went on. So you think the government likes this show that depicts the law agents as bad guys? Its only TV for sure but think about a crackdown on good citizens by the government, public opinion would be huge in "our" favor. All it would take is some well funded high profile cases and having the public at large begin to call for the heads of these agencies.....again politics is about money and power. This isn't pot we are talking about here, think the town you live in would be more opposed to you having a still in your garage....or having a growing operation for weed in your basement? Most busts you see fall into 3 categories. Large scale operations for profit, small scale operations that were discovered when the cops were looking for something else, or an operation that was reported by someone with an axe to grind against you. Great time to remind you not to be the bad guy in your neighborhood huh? Don't give a reason for cops to come to your house is a good start.

[Jimbo]

..think about a crackdown on good citizens by the government, public opinion would be huge in "our" favor.

Im not sure public opinion would be huge in our favor. Alcohol abuse, especially hard alcohol has disrupted a lot of lives, killed lots of people and caused much grief and abuse in the world.

And people like watching train wrecks, from Teen Mom shows to toothless hicks acting idiotic. I think any of our pictures in the paper would be simultaneously a trophy on barney fifes wall and entertainment and amusement to folks reading the paper.

[Moose_755]

I may be packing mine up boys. I'm still a novice, but I'm not stupid.
May just pack up, sit back , learn some more & watch this story unfold.
Could do some wines...

[seabass]

I may be packing mine up boys. I'm still a novice, but I'm not stupid.
May just pack up, sit back , learn some more & watch this story unfold.
Could do some wines...

Not a bad idea. I might do the same.

[blind drunk]

I just keep thinking that johnny law has bigger things to worry about these frickin days. Seems absurd to shake down a largely private hobbyist who's hurting no one. The world's falling apart in front of our eyes and they're going after a couple liters of homemade hooch

[Black Eye]

I'd be more worried when you have to start showing your ID to the chick at the register, to buy copper in Home Depot. Although Tractor supply is making me uneasy by carding me everytime I want Propane.


To me it doesn't seem all to surprising that the G's want to know more info from a company selling stills that are mainly used for an illegal operation. But it seems pretty unrealistic to go shake down 80k-90k people on a list, who are, for the most part, making small time amounts of likker.

That being said, I'd think long and hard, if you're running a bigger operation and selling booze.

[Jimbo]

I just keep thinking that johnny law has bigger things to worry about these frickin days. Seems absurd to shake down a largely private hobbyist who's hurting no one. The world's falling apart in front of our eyes and they're going after a couple liters of homemade hooch

You'd think so, but there's a pack of em sittin in their car eating donuts writing ticket after ticket in my town for going 5 over the speed limit, NOT an exageration, while meth labs abound, 20 something assholes are having sex with 14 year old girls, houses are robbed, stores are vandalized and cars are broken into. And I live in a 'good' neighborhood.

This is about barney fifes trophy and the local rags ratings, not common sense. I have ZERO faith in our government doing anything remotely sensible.

[Black Eye]

Jimbo,

Sounds like you're better off staying home and making some Whiskey, I mean "rose oil" for the panty drawer . Between the speed traps and your neighbors it sounds like danger is lurking around every corner

[Jimbo]

haha. I sold my copper to the scrap yard before metals tanks any further. Wife will have to buy her rose petal spray again.

[Rocketboy]

Does it make sense for the Feds to go after the entire group of 80-90k people on a customer list? Of course not, they don't have to. The people who work for the TTB are extremely intelligent and precise stategists. A couple well-placed arrests and news stories is all it will take to get the affect they're after. Bust a guy in California, one in New York, maybe one in Texas, Chicago and Florida and you've effectively covered the country with not much money or resources wasted.
This is not about money or re-claiming tax revenue they feel they're missing out on. It's more about re-introducing the population to the fact that law is the law. The laws against distilling privately were put into place for a whole host of very good reasons. The most important reason, of course is the fact that it can be a dangerous activity. We, as citizens of this country demand that our government put laws in place to protect the population. You may want to think this particular law is all about the money and it's just another example of government intrusion but the reality is, it's there for a reason- people demanded it. Can you imagine living in a country where anybody was allowed to distill and sell a product such as alcohol with no regulations, standards, oversight, etc..? Would you take a drink from a bottle of booze you bought over the counter not knowing if somewhere, somebody took the time to make sure proper procedures were followed? I, for one, would not. Okay, that's a lie, I've done it but it kinda gave me the creeps. Does it go on all over the country? You bet it does. Thanks to certain 'shows' (for the lack of better terms) it's going on more and more. It's quite obvious to the Feds that illegal distillation goes on with or without laws in place. The government makes it their profession to accurately pick their fights. They don't have to take on the whole army to win this war.
Oh, and if you think you'll live long enough to see the laws changed in the hobbyist favor- you're kidding yourself. Good luck convincing the people who make a living lobbying the government for the big liquor companies that your little 10 gallon still isn't worth going after.
They don't look at the hobbyist in any different light than the big moonshiners selling hundreds of gallons. You're a threat to their livelihood- period.
A quick example: Direct TV was having a problem years ago with people stealing their service by creating and selling activated account cards used in their digital receiver boxes. An activated account card could be cloned and sold with every program option available to the buyer of the card. This meant as long as the account was kept current, every card cloned from that account card was active and current. Direct TV asked for and was granted the right to obtain a customer list from the manufacturer of the card cloning machines. With help from the Feds, Direct TV successfully rounded up over 1,000 private individuals cloning their account cards and systematically brought them into court for prosecution. It all started with a letter to the manufacturer. Then it progressed with a letter to the customer giving them a chance to 'volunteer' information. When that failed, it became a summons to appear in court. I know this because a very close personal friend is still on probation and paying off the $15,000 fine he was assesed. He laughed at the letter when he read it. He wasn't laughing very long.
Of course this is a rough analogy and as it's been pointed out, manufacturers of these stills already know their customer lists have to be provided if asked for so this is a little different. It does, however, point out that if someone gets a big enough burr up their ass it will be dealt with.
All this is just my opinion, not put here to make people paranoid but give them food for thought. I certainly don't expect a knock on my door by guys in dark glasses but I'm not going to sit here and kid myself into thinking there's no way it could happen. None of us should be that smug especially since, let's face it, what we do is against the law in every state in the Union.
Maybe we don't push the panic button but instead use this to simply look at ourselves and our own operation and decide if what we do on the level we do it is worth the consequences.

[Jimbo]

Rocketboy, read up on your history. Whiskey was taxed to fund the government war debt in 1791, and resulted in the whiskey rebellion when thousands of farmers rose up. 'People demanded it ' ??? HA! Youre a funny guy with a good imagination. George Washington himself owned a pile of stills before there were laws in place to tax his ass on them. The Government as we know it today, was only 2 years old, following the ratification of the US Constitution in 1789, before they found a way to load the coffers with alcohol tax.

[Rocketboy]

Thanks for the history lesson, Jimbo. I guess I was absent that day in school.
Who do you think voted this government in, the Pope? Don't we count on the people we vote in to office to do what the people demand? Isn't that how this republic was founded? Funny how just because you didn't vote for somebody that made a law all of a sudden means nobody demanded the law.
I'm well aware of the history just like I'm well aware the government voted to abolish the prohibition just as the people demanded. But it came with a few stipulations, a compromise if you will. One of which is the stipulation that the production of alcohold for consumption is to be regulated, taxed and restricted.
I didn't make the post to start a political/history discussion. I am glad that you think I'm a funny guy, though. I think you're kinda funny, too. wink wink

[Jimbo]

we're all a little funny here, we distill hooch at home for crying outloud. Or used to, before selling our copper to the scrapyard.

[Rocketboy]

What's funny is how my copper may be making a full circle right back to the scrap yard! Oh well, I got my $10 out of it.

[mash rookie]

The people who work for the TTB are extremely intelligent and precise stategists.

To think anything else is foolish and short sighted. They know exactly what they are doing. Only time will tell what that is. Hobbyists have no clue and will have to wait nervously for the fallout.

[Black Eye]

Just because I vote republican doesn't mean I vote for the pro choice laws they tend to support... Just for the record in case anyone is confused.


Jimbo,

George Washington would want you to continue to make bourbon and share recipes, I assure you.

[Rocketboy]

Hopefully, it's nothing more than a couple guys following procedure to simply ask for the list of customers as agreed upon by the manufacturers. Maybe it's just a formality for record keeping? I guess we'll all find out together.

[Rocketboy]

Just because I vote republican doesn't mean I vote for the pro choice laws they tend to support... Just for the record in case anyone is confused.


Jimbo,

George Washington would want you to continue to make bourbon and share recipes, I assure you.

Indeed he would. And I think it was Ben Franklin that said, "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy"

[WERAT]

RocketBoy,
Not to change the subject but I think DirecTV was prosecuting because of the bootloaders not the card reader/programmer/copier. The programmers were completely leagal and are used to program other types of cards, like access control cards. (I use this type of programmer very often (LEGALLY))
The bootloaders were made for one purpose and one purpose only, to steal directTV after black Monday. (they killed our programmed cards)

The stills that are being sold also have multiple uses. 1 of course is making likker, but also distilling water, extracting oils, etc.. I think if they are going to go after someone it would be a big producer, maybe the guys making the stills (if it is found that the customers are using them illegally) and a good possibility of shutting down this site. HD (hope that doesn't happen) These things would make the biggest impact on the distilling community (at least for newbys and those to paranoid to continue)
The rest of us would just keep on producing our own likker in our home, shed, barn or whatever you use, and be a little more discreet.

Had to throw in my 2 cents worth, for what its worth. ($.02)

WERAT

[Rocketboy]

WERAT- I only know what was explained to me by my friend who faced the charges. He told me they got his name/address from the guy he bought the card machine from. Sounds more like your account of things is more accurate. It makes sense, the card machine is used all the time for legitimate reasons. I'm calling it a card machine because I don't know the real name for it.

[Braz]

In the late 1980's the government launched a nationwide operation designed to prosecute under the "conspiracy to commit" laws companies who sold marijuana growing supplies. This even though growing supplies could also be used to grow damned near anything. I know something about this because I was called to sit on the Federal Grand Jury in Indiana that handed down one of the indictments. (I was, BTW, one of the few who voted against issuing the indictment.)

It went like this:
Identify garden centers who advertised in High Times magazine. Get a warrant and seize the company's computer/customer records. Find a few customers growing pot and arrest them. Plea bargain in return for testimony that the garden shop gave advice on how to grow pot (whether true or not). Presto! They now have a conspiracy case. There is not much info on the web about this but here is one article relating to the case I was on. http://www.skeptictank.org/files/conspire/drugs3do.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I don't think they ever got a conviction in my case and the government might have actually dropped it without trial. The company still exists and is much bigger now than it was then. But still, it had to have been a hugely expensive nightmare for the owner.

It is not much of a stretch to see a similar operation now starting with regard to distilling equipment suppliers.