Making pure whiskey

[Odin]

If there is one thing he explains in his first book is that he gets over TOO much taste with his first method. And I can agree on that.

I find the explanation in the first paragraph making more sence: he got to know about about COMMERCIAL whiskey making. And that's done at < 85%.

Anhyhow, for me, this is all very interesting (no pun intended!), but not really to the point.

Whatever Ian thinks about it right now, I followed in his "first edition" foot steps and got great results. From our "96% is neutral" paradigm, one might even say "increadible results". But the results are there, I reproduced them, others have reproduced them.

And I know for a fact a detuned LM makes a worse product.

So let's continue our research, and invite anyone else with an LM to give the Pure Whiskey Making approach a go.

It is a hit. Or if it aint yet, it should be one.

Odin.

[lampshade]

So let's continue our research, and invite anyone else with an LM to give the Pure Whiskey Making approach a go.

Does the still have to be an LM, or will a VM or CM work as well?

[Odin]

Depends. You need a rig that compresses heads very well. VM's do, some CM's do that as well. And you need a still that compresses tails. VM is excelent, CM normally okay. Real trick: can the rick collect tails for feints at lower abv? VM usually stops when tails get over, so how do you collect them? Combo of LM (for heads compression and tails collection) and VM (for pure hearts) might be fine.

Odin.

[lampshade]

Odin,

You seem to be very happy with the flavor of your Pure Whiskey. What is the make-up of the 1 liter of feints that you recycle in the subsequent distillation? In other words, what is thrown into the feints jar from which you draw 1 liter?

For example, does your feints jar contain:

• (1) all heads and (2) all of the tails collected down to 20% ABV?
• (1) all heads collected after 165 degrees and (2) all tails collected down to 50% ABV?
• or some other mix?

[Odin]

All the heads and an equal amount in volume of the tails.

Odin.

[lampshade]

All the heads and an equal amount in volume of the tails.

Thanks, Odin, that seems like a very good/easy rule for recyclable feints, i.e., equal volumes of heads and tails.

One question: Did you draw off from a tails container an amount that is equal in volume to the collected heads, or did you stop collecting tails when the volume collected equaled the volume of the previously collected heads? I think these two different methods will effect two different flavor profiles.

Have you tried heads-only or tails-only? What flavors does each contribute? I read somewhere that heads contributes fruitiness, and that heads-only is desireable for rum. Also, it seems that those that went before us recycled only tails for whiskey.

[lampshade]

Is there a better term than "recycle". I have been using that term, but it seems better suited for environmentalism than the art of fine whiskey making.

[Odin]

Recycling is fine.

I only do heads & tails and never switched to only heads or only tails.

1:1 is the ratio I aim for. But I have an automated still that batch collects. That's different for a manually managed LM. In a manually managed LM I would simply collect tails till 82 degrees. Mix head and tails and take a part.

Odin.

[ELT]

Has anyone tried this with a rum mash? Agave mash?

[Odin]

Not that I know of, but my expectations are you will get the same results.

Who's first?

Odin.

[Jimbo]

All the heads and an equal amount in volume of the tails.

Odin.

Odin, is that because of the type of still or a general rule you follow? Ive found my tails are about 2X the volume of heads. If I cut any deeper into the heads I lose all fruity esters and interesting grain flavors from the grains and beer yeasts I use. And with apple brandy especially, in that case Ill make a bigger than average fores cut, maybe 2x, then the heads are where all the apple is.

[Odin]

I guess this part is feel around and progress from there. I share my approach, but I am not sure different amounts of heads and or tails would be worse. Maybe they are better.

What I do is I take as heads what I don't want in my hearts. I then try to take an equal amount of tails. Just so both are present in more or less equal amounts in the feints bottle.

Funny that you talk about apple. It is in the heads that taste of apple brandy is concentrated for the biggest part.

How to distinguish when heards go towards hearts? By the temperature reading in the top of the column. If it stops going up, you are into hearts.

Odin.

[lampshade]

Hey Odin,

Any updates on your new methodology?

[Odin]

I will be doing another run this weekend!

Odin.

[F6Hawk]

As to the quantity of heads vs. tails..... I pull about 100 ml of FS, then 3-4 jars at 100 ml each for heads, then 800-1000 ml for hearts, then when I smell tails, I turn it off. No alcohol to speak of when it smells of tails. MAYBE 50 ml of tails. This for a 20-22 L wash.

[scrap]

just wondering if there are any further developments here.

Usge- did you run it/like it?

I have only done neutrals and only have a 2" bok (so far) so this is appealing to me on many levels. Just finishing my first gen cornflakes ferment and a first gen UJSSM. Just looking fo updates on this method.


Thanks,

scrap

[Usge]

Sorry, I"m not around much anymore. As far as I got with it was to do a LONG run dripping off the bok at 95%. It was very soft, but had very little flavor. I recycled the feints as suggested for the 2nd run but the mash got infected and yield was way off. Alas, I don't think my results could add to the discussion one way or another as the results from the more important 2nd run were a bust. Those 12-18 hour runs on the bok are hard on me. So, for now I've put it aside and moved on to more productive ground for a while. If I revisit it sometime and get some kind of results from it that I can actually discern...I'll be sure to drop back by and post my results.

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

[midwest shinner]

Those long runs are definitely taxing Usge. Anyway Odin i am starting up a 15 gal(or about 58 liters) batch of some rye bread whisky using your recipe for the most part. Well I've got 8lbs of some nice pumpernickel so maybe it will only be like 13 gal total, at any rate I'm excited to give it a try and will very soon have my new vm/lm up and running (it would be done today but i had to at least relax and enjoy 1 of my days off from work) and can't wait to try out the pure whisky recipe as well. Thanks for the detailed info on both processes.

[Odin]

I will have another go at it in a few weeks time. Luckily my runs are a bit faster. I screwed up my last batch by introducing toasted white oak that already was toasted once before. Very astringent tastes getting over from the wood, so turned it into a vodka with an extra run and some carbon filtering.

Odin.

[scrap]

Tried it. Love it.

How I ran:

I didi not do the full collumn on my bok.I took the head only and a short extention. Had about a 1foot packed collumn with copper mesh. I did a long slow boil the wash straight outa the fermenter and feints from a previous UJSSM run. Product was 92% alc. Diluted the hearts section and it had good flavor white. I Blended a little and put about 450mLs of 90 proof on toasted oak. Distressed aged in and out of the freezer for a week or so and it just keeps improving. VERY smooth sippin, I will do this for another week and then Im taking it camping with my girl. My friend who drinks whiskey often compared it to Gentleman Jack but better.

Thanks to all who added this thread. Got a Cornflakes sour second gen to run this weekend. Should be good!

Odin...you are da man

[mystakilla]

Im going to give this a shot next week on some sweetfeed..

Thanks Odin!

[Odin]

Just save up some of them feints and go for it!

Odin.

[wv_cooker]

As someone once said, The Great Odini.

[Odin]

Hi there!

Just did another Pure Whiskey run today. On a second generation Oats & Rye UJ. An acquired taste. Not the Pure Whiskey, but the rye. And even more so: the oats. My second generation of O & R was about 35 liters at around 10%. I added the feints from generation one. Around one liter of 96%.

This is how I usually start up my Pure Whiskey. Just take a UJ. Preferably from something else than corn. Maybe rye, maybe wheat, maybe a combination. In this case oats and rye and a slice of dark rye bread. The first generation is, off course, a sweet mash. And my goals are only these:
1. Get me some backset to start up generation 2 as a sour mash. The backset brings over so much more taste!
2. Get me the heads & tails from that first sweet mash run, so I can start making Pure Whiskey at 96%.

So what happened to generation 1? The sweet mash? Easy. I always fractionate my first gen into a vodka. I use my automated LM and select pure distillation (96.5% all the way) and incorporate the elaborate fores & heads removal program as well as the carbon filtration option. I heat up, fores are drawn off (around 1% of total abv/likker collectable). Stabilization kicks in and I usually stabilize for 30 minutes for a 25 liter wash. This time I chose 40 minutes. I then drew off about 0.4 liters of heads and collected them in a seperate glass container. After that it was hearts as usual. I collected until the temperature at the bottom of the column was 96 degrees and then switched to the potstill program and collected until 96 degrees C at the top of the column as tails. Another 600 mls.

So run one in the process of making Pure Whiskey gives me a vodka with some residual mouth feel, backset and fores & tails (together: feints).

Today I ran the 35 lliters of oats & rye and chose pure distillation mode again. Only this time without carbon filtration. Whiskey needs taste, so no filtering please. Prior to firing the still up, I added the one liter of feints.

You remember that this is the trick into making a Pure Whiskey: added feints will allow you to concentrate both heads and tails better, thus minimizing the amounts of heads and tails. Why? Because with more of the lower and higher boiling point alcohols there, stacking them and thus compressing them becomes easier. Heads and tails factions become so compacted that tastes associated with heads and tails bleed over into hearts. This process adds plenty of taste to your Pure Whiskey, while at the same time, since you are taking cuts at azeotropic temperatures, you get (close to) perfect separation of the various factions. In plain English? You get a whiskey without the hangover.

Okay. Did it again today. Collected about a liter of feints on this first Pure Whiskey run. And got me like 3.5 liters of pure azeo Pure Whiskey. Smelled like crap, though. Oats does that. I then diluted one part to 60% and ran it thru my ultrasonic cleaner. It is now resting on some JD wood barrel staves. Already nice & yellow. Another part I diluted to 50%. I then ran it thru my ultrasonic cleaner for 3 times 10 minutes at 40 Khz and 50 watts power input. And that is what I am currently drinking. Fresh from the still, but very tasty. Well,if you like oats.

The nose is still ... awkward. That's the oats. After that there is spice (the rye) and a lot of sweetness (oats again). After that a nice "afterburn": the rye bread's maillard reaction heating up the palate very nicely. So interesting that just one slice of rye bread can have that strong aftertaste!

Okay, more info on the Pure Whiskey approach? Yes! Next week I will be giving a master class to around 30 (home) distillers. And one week later I will shoot an instructional video so others can repeat the process and share their experiences on the forum.

Regards, Odin.

[midwest shinner]

I really really need to finish my vm/lm so I can give this method a try.I've downloaded Ian Smiley's book and read the section on pure whiskey multiple times. By the way Odin, rye and oats is probably my favorite whiskey i've ever made. I did a 60% oats /40% rye AG batch that has blow my socks off after aging a few months on some french oak. Too bad it was only a 5 gal batch to begin with so after 2 runs and a few months of aging(and periodic tasting...) I've only got a pint left... Long story short I'm soon making a 100% oats AG and would like to do the same with some rye. I can then ombine the 2 at whatever % I want, or not. But either way I think both of those grains make some amazing whiskey, especially when combined.
Edit to say: The Pure Whiskey approach is very interesting and I will soon be using this method myself, so please pass along any info you feel is important. I mean if you can say you've had too much flavor from it before, it obviously works. Since normally likker at 96.5% is considered neutral, with no discernible flavor. I know any likker I've tried before that came off at azeo was definitely very neutral

[woodshed]

Just came across this and it has been great reading. I have long run very similar to this. However, the wise Odin has tightened up my program. From one "Brother of the grain" to another, THANKS

[Odin]

You are welcome Woodshed! The more I use this method, the more it makes me realize ... I will not be making pot distilled whiskey any more.

Just tried another oats & rye Pure Whiskey today and it is amazing what just one day of rest can do. It was good yesterday, it got better today.

Regards, Odin.

[Odin]

Okay, I gave a masterclass Pure Whiskey Making on the iStill Distillers Event 2013. Here are some sheets I used to clarify the process. Here is a first one, where I compare what gives a traditional whiskey (apart from the oak) its character. I distinguish between fores, heads, hearts, and tails. Heads are not a real phase, but more of a transitional shift from a situation of overly concentrated fores (lower abv alcs) and some ethanol to a situation where those lower bp alcs get less and less. I attribute taste to heads, hearts and tails as follows (and as a generalization): fruity taste notes in Heads, grainy taste notes in Hearts, nutty/rootlike taste notes in Tails.

The picture underneath shows us that a pot still is the (traditional) way to go when making whiskey. The low level of separation causes smearing of factions. But it is exactly that smearing of factions that causes a more complex taste to develop. Under the first picture, you see a run on a Boka or Nixon-Stone LM off-head. Of course it does not perfectly stack various factions, so the transition points are a bit bigger than the thin black lines between the factions in the picture, but it brings the message across.

[Odin]

Looking at the picture from the post above, the last of the two pictures, we can easily make the following assumption: "if you would run a grain wash in that Boka, what you get as a hearts cut would be grainy in taste, but it would be without any of the more complex fruit, or nut or rootlike tastes. And that's off course exactly the case. Running a wash thru a Boka will give you a grainy vodka, not a fruity, nutty, rooty whiskey.

So you cannot make a whiskey with a Boka. You are right. You cannot. At least not on the first run. But making whiskey is not the goal of a first run when making Pure Whiskey. Your goal, in the first run is: to get the feints. And that's what you do, you throw out fores, you collect heads in the feints container, you then collect hearts in the hearts container. When tails arrive, you switch back to the feints container. So ... you do not end up with a whiskey, but you do get feints and a nice vodka. The vodka you can drink as is. Or you can store it to "water" down your pure whiskey when you think it is too strong in taste. For now: let's focus on the feints. And on run 2.

Run 2 is pretty much the same as run one. A grain wash enters your Boka ... and here comes the difference ... you now add the feints from run one! You end up with a wash that has twice the amount of heads & tails as compared to run number one. And the magic is about to happen. Just look at the picture beneath:

[Odin]

In the above example, cuts are as big on run 1 as they are on run 2. That's arbitrary. I know that Ian Smiley, with his NS off-head LM got like 50% bigger heads factions and 50% bigger tails factions each time. But why not 100% bigger? I mean, you add twice as many heads and tails ... for sure that should mean that on the second run these factions should be twice as big?

No, they shouldn't. Why? Because the lower bp alcs (just to take heads as an example, but the same holds true to tails) where always mixed with ethanol in the first place. Fores are not pure lower bp alcs. No way. Anyone ever made their column stabilize at 26 degrees? No. Yet that is the boiling point of acetone. 64 degrees C? No again. Even though that's the boiling point of methanol. 77.7 maybe? Well, now we are getting close. My point: fores (and so heads) are always a mixture of lower bp alcs and ethanol.

The point being? That the more feints you add, the better they can stack! Makes sense right? Yes it does. That's where Ian Smiley's 50% of heads and tails went. There were twice as many lower and higher bp alcs, but, because they were with more, they could stack better and be taken out in a much smaller total quantity of ethanol and lower/higher bp alcs.

That's why the assumption that heads and tails fractions on run 2 being the same size as on run 1 is not that bad at all. An old style LM could decrease the size of the heads by maybe 50%, but my guess is a Boka with SPP can maintain the same size of head cuts at every run. How I come to think that? Well, I run an automated LM with SPP and even with continuously adding heads and tails, these factions actually get SMALLER every time I run again.

Another point I will elaborate on later. For now: it is back to the second run with the assumption that heads and tails stack better and faction size stays the same. Just look at what happens to the hearts. Contrary to the potstill run, we do not see actual lower and/or higher bp alcs migrate into hearts (that's why the slightly different color), but we do see fruity tastes from heads and nutty tastes from tails migrate over. The compressing of heads and tails means there is not space for associated congeners to "hang on" to the alcohol molecules they are commonly associated with. The tastey components from heads and tails start to bleed over into the hearts faction, thus creating a tasty Pure Whiskey, without the bad, hangover causing alcohols present.

Underneath the same pictures, on how to make Pure Whiskey, but this time for a Pure Whiskey made with an iStill, where the automation, packing and system integration take the experience one step further still. To translate that "step further" into numbers, just think of a Boka with normal packing giving you about 15 re-distillations on a run. The more modern versions I now work with give you around 40 re-distillations. That makes cuts more precise, while heads and tails factions get smaller. And as they get smaller, there is (potentially) more power to concentrate unwanted alcohols, thus further increasing taste transfer of associated congeners from heads and tails to hearts. Here we go: