email from Brewhaus

[blind drunk]

Cops aren't anything special and they sure as hell aren't above the law. They need reminders every now and then that they work for us. No judge is going to issue a warrant on the basis of an order. They might watch you and if they get actual proof then they might issue a warrant. Cops are generally lazy, if they have to do more than walk up and arrest you they usually wont.

Just make sure and have a box of Tim Horton's donuts ready, just in case they do decide and take that long walk to your front door and maybe some granola bars just in case they're a little younger.

[Jimbo]

S-C,

Please post the letter you sent your congressman for us to copy and paste.

Just sayin'

Jimbo

[blind drunk]

I checked S-C, I still got them My wife concurs. Thanks for the tip

[King Of Hearts]

I don't get it. Why now? Are there a rash of people getting poisoned, sick, selling? This is a hobby to people here. We do it for the same reason people make wine or beer, to make it the way we like it. It should not be illegal. The only reason it is , is because the money deems it so. That's not good enough. Someone said we need to get it changed, and Im all for . If there are 90,000 people on the list, that is a dam good starting point. Let's get the word out and try to get this legal.

[drinkingdog]

Since this thread began, there has been a not so subtle undertone of paranoia (including my own) associated with it. I didn't purchase a still, but the paranoia seems to run deep enough to include any association with this forum. Before everyone gets their drawers in too big a bunch, I would suggest getting a better perspective on just what it is we're all so worried about here. If you haven't already done so, I would suggest everyone read Mani's introduction of himself to the forum - http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 27&t=40139 .

Now, reach down and grab your crotch and make sure your balls are still there. By doing what you're doing in direct defiance of the law and coming here and talking about it with your like-minded peers, you are essentially participating in an organized act of civil disobedience. That is, you're consciously breaking the law because you believe it to be unjust. Maybe it's time that we put our boots to the pavement and sign a petition, or write a letter to a congressman or assemblyman, or any other action rather than inaction. I don't live in the Soviet States of America and as long as I breathe free air, I will never concede that I do. Patrick Henry stood before the Virginia House of Burgesses and pronounced, "Give me liberty or give me death.". Our founding fathers signed the declaration of independence knowing that if their great experiment failed, they would likely be hanged. My own father went to war to defend the world against the evils of NAZIism and was twice wounded in the process. WTF people - find your balls!

Just sayin',
S-C

th
I do agree in that compared to mani's punishment for getting caught distilling DEATH, we just slapped on the wrists. I don't agree that any of us are breaking any laws by being on this forum talking about distilling.. Remember free speech? I don't think that everyone on this forum has lost their balls provided that they were born with a set. I am a firm believer in fighting worth while battles. It is no use to win a battle to turn around and lose the war. That is why as I have stated before on this thread the fight needs to START with the still manufactures. I feel if they want to stay in business let them start the moment. They are the ones making a living off of us. If it would be legallized i am sure they would double it not triple their sales. They have nothing to lose everything to gain. We on the other hand aren't making a dime from doing this. Sure we get to drink something far better than what we could buy once we hone our skills, but that is it. From there I would contemplate sticking my head out to possibly get it cut off in the hopes of this hobby legalized.

[HookLine]

I don't get it. Why now?

The hobby is reaching a certain size, starting to become visible and mainstream.

A crackdown of some kind was always inevitable if the hobby kept growing, and it has been growing in leaps and bounds, and only looks like going right on growing.

Can't expect Johnny Lawman to just ignore it forever.

[Welf Huck]

I too have purchased from Rick and have gotten the email. I feel that as long as you have followed some very basic precautions you ought to be ok. We all know what those "rules of the road" are and if you've ignored them, then you will have more to worry about than most.

Now, should the next logical step occur, which is most likely an email or letter, a simple, plausible and timely response would be in everyone's best interest. This isn't the time to grandstand or preach. It's the time to retreat, regroup, and proceed with tact, diplomacy and intelligence.

I've read many a post from eager, but short-sighted, hobbyist with their hackles raised saying "reach in yur drawers and make sure ya still got a pair". That type of response is exactly what they want. Show them you don't intend to follow any law you see unjust, and that your not about to hide it. What's the TTB going to do? Back off? Not likely.

This is a mufti-faceted situation and we don't know what the true motivations and goals are. We are all just speculating and worrying. Is it lost tax revenue, commercial distillery lobbyist pressure, bible thumper's, Muslim fundamentalist, political grandstanding, precursor for a political diversion, etc.?

Simply use your best judgement when and if you have any communications with someone in authority. Keep in mind that anything you say or do that is visible outside your home is data that can be used against you. Don't distribute, sell, barter or brag about your hobby. Keep a low profile and let's see what the next move is.

[rgarry]

I think welf huck gives some of the best advice so far. I have not received an email or letter and their is a chance that I have no trace given time frame. With that said, I'm on vacation from our hobby. Things got separated, moved, thrown out. Things I use for AG beer was kept. One of the biggest concerns is that like many here, I have a concealed carry permit. You put the two together and the gun charge is worse than anything related to spirit production. Even if your gun is locked in a safe, if its at the same property as your alcohol production, now you have a gun involved with a felony. I'm on the side line for now. I will continue to read and learn but not the same as doing. Some may argue my statements about guns but it is based on solid advise from a lawyer. Like all of this, you need to do what's right for you. There is no right or wrong and I know time (I hope) will show I over reacted.

[MuddyDuck]

I think welf huck gives some of the best advice so far. I have not received an email or letter and their is a chance that I have no trace given time frame. With that said, I'm on vacation from our hobby. Things got separated, moved, thrown out. Things I use for AG beer was kept. One of the biggest concerns is that like many here, I have a concealed carry permit. You put the two together and the gun charge is worse than anything related to spirit production. Even if your gun is locked in a safe, if its at the same property as your alcohol production, now you have a gun involved with a felony. I'm on the side line for now. I will continue to read and learn but not the same as doing. Some may argue my statements about guns but it is based on solid advise from a lawyer. Like all of this, you need to do what's right for you. There is no right or wrong and I know time (I hope) will show I over reacted.

I too think that discretion is the better part of valor. I did not consider the gun charge, but that would definitely be a concern for me as well. I don't think that this is the time to stand in front of the tanks (Tienamen Square), but time to continue quietly teaching and recruiting new shiners to the fold. Being new myself, I can say that a lot of misconceptions that I held have been dispelled just by being a member of this forum. Unfortunately, the stereotype the public has of our art will need to change before there will ever be a chance to sucessfully challenge the powers that be.

[S-Cackalacky]

S-C,

Please post the letter you sent your congressman for us to copy and paste.

Just sayin'

Jimbo

Haven't done that YET, but have signed that latest petition recently posted (linked to) here on the forum. Woooo, hope I don't get in some big trouble for THAT.

I asked your same question of a poster here on the forum some time ago, but got no response. Just like you, I was looking for a template to use to compose my own version. Maybe your sarcassm will push me to go ahead and compose something - and, yes, I will post it here for critique and use by others if they want.

S-C

[King Of Hearts]

I agree Welf Huck, well said. What do they really have on anyone, just an equipment buy, that is legal. How in the world can they get a warrant based on that? Unless they are spying on everything we do, which they are. Just read the news. time to relax and wait. Maybe sign a petition.

[S-Cackalacky]

Since this thread began, there has been a not so subtle undertone of paranoia (including my own) associated with it. I didn't purchase a still, but the paranoia seems to run deep enough to include any association with this forum. Before everyone gets their drawers in too big a bunch, I would suggest getting a better perspective on just what it is we're all so worried about here. If you haven't already done so, I would suggest everyone read Mani's introduction of himself to the forum - http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 27&t=40139 .

Now, reach down and grab your crotch and make sure your balls are still there. By doing what you're doing in direct defiance of the law and coming here and talking about it with your like-minded peers, you are essentially participating in an organized act of civil disobedience. That is, you're consciously breaking the law because you believe it to be unjust. Maybe it's time that we put our boots to the pavement and sign a petition, or write a letter to a congressman or assemblyman, or any other action rather than inaction. I don't live in the Soviet States of America and as long as I breathe free air, I will never concede that I do. Patrick Henry stood before the Virginia House of Burgesses and pronounced, "Give me liberty or give me death.". Our founding fathers signed the declaration of independence knowing that if their great experiment failed, they would likely be hanged. My own father went to war to defend the world against the evils of NAZIism and was twice wounded in the process. WTF people - find your balls!

Just sayin',
S-C

th
I do agree in that compared to mani's punishment for getting caught distilling DEATH, we just slapped on the wrists. I don't agree that any of us are breaking any laws by being on this forum talking about distilling.. Remember free speech? I don't think that everyone on this forum has lost their balls provided that they were born with a set. I am a firm believer in fighting worth while battles. It is no use to win a battle to turn around and lose the war. That is why as I have stated before on this thread the fight needs to START with the still manufactures. I feel if they want to stay in business let them start the moment. They are the ones making a living off of us. If it would be legallized i am sure they would double it not triple their sales. They have nothing to lose everything to gain. We on the other hand aren't making a dime from doing this. Sure we get to drink something far better than what we could buy once we hone our skills, but that is it. From there I would contemplate sticking my head out to possibly get it cut off in the hopes of this hobby legalized.

I wasn't sayin' that being here on the forum was unlawfull. I was simply saying that the discourse here was an expression of civil disobedience. Making the likker is the unlawfull part.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the manufacturers are the ones to push legalization forward. They will take watever path of least resistance they need to take to make their money. The TTB is probably accomplishing exactly what they set out to do - scaring the hell out of enough people to get them to stop what they're doing - some have said as much right here in this thread. Do you think the government doesn't have the power to intemidate the manufacturers just as much as they're intimidating you? Have you NOT seen the evening news lately? TTB agents are probably sitting there right now, reading this thread, and laughing their fucking bureaucratic asses off.

Hey, I can be a hothead as I've demonstrated on more than one occassion. A few things that push me over the edge are paranoia, apathy, and illogical bullshit.

Just sayin',
S-C

[lampshade]

Now, should the next logical step occur, which is most likely an email or letter, a simple, plausible and timely response would be in everyone's best interest. This isn't the time to grandstand or preach. It's the time to retreat, regroup, and proceed with tact, diplomacy and intelligence.

I've read many a post from eager, but short-sighted, hobbyist with their hackles raised saying "reach in yur drawers and make sure ya still got a pair". That type of response is exactly what they want. Show them you don't intend to follow any law you see unjust, and that your not about to hide it. What's the TTB going to do? Back off? Not likely.

+1

My experience with the authorities is that, for the most part, they want to leave you alone. However, once they think you are rebellious and defiant, then is the time that they go out of their way to make life miserable for you.

[drinkingdog]

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the manufacturers are the ones to push legalization forward. They will take watever path of least resistance they need to take to make their money S-C

I don't understand why you and at least a few other people feel that it's not the manufacturers fight. I'm not saying that it is just their fight because it is ours as well as theirs. What business do you know of that doesn't have to spend money to make money whether it be advertising or something else. If they would just start the movement toward legalization, the key word is start then others would likely join in. They don't have to worry about drawing attention to themselves because they aren't doing anything illegal. If things would change and become legalized the sky is the limit to what they could earn. If they aren't willing to fight just a little for everyone them included then screw them. I don't need to do business with them. No matter what we all need to stick together all working towards the same goal

[S-Cackalacky]

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the manufacturers are the ones to push legalization forward. They will take watever path of least resistance they need to take to make their money S-C

I don't understand why you and at least a few other people feel that it's not the manufacturers fight. I'm not saying that it is just their fight because it is ours as well as theirs. What business do you know of that doesn't have to spend money to make money whether it be advertising or something else. If they would just start the movement toward legalization, the key word is start then others would likely join in. They don't have to worry about drawing attention to themselves because they aren't doing anything illegal. If things would change and become legalized the sky is the limit to what they could earn. If they aren't willing to fight just a little for everyone them included then screw them. I don't need to do business with them. No matter what we all need to stick together all working towards the same goal

So, why are so many here, as demonstrated in this thread, crawling into a hole and expecting profit motive to save them. The fact that so many are running scared and saying that they are leaving the hobby isn't enough to convince me that the manufacturers/retailers will rally in desperation to save their own asses and therefore ours. No, I don't buy into the idea that someone else needs to fight the fight for me. What are we talking about anyway when we say, "fight"? The "fight" is writing a letter, or signing a petition - your constitutional right. Do so many people here really fear taking those small steps to improve the situation. The TTB doesn't make the law, they enforce it and so far I haven't seen any evidence of them coming down on anyone with a heavy hammer. What's your plan - wait til it happens? If anything, we should accept their actions as motivation to rally into some action of our own. Do you seriously think that crawling off somewhere and expecting someone else to stand and fight for you is the answer to this?

Sorry if I come off as being overly "eager", or "short-sighted", and with my "hackles raised". I suppose I shouldn't expect to enter into a fight without being able to tolerate a few bruises and a cowardly sucker punch.

Just sayin',
S-C

[Scurrillous]

So, why are so many here, as demonstrated in this thread, crawling into a hole ... so many are running scared ... fight the fight .. "fight"? The "fight" .. crawling off somewhere .. stand and fight for you .. I suppose I shouldn't expect to enter into a fight without being able to tolerate a few bruises and a cowardly sucker punch.

Just sayin',
S-C

No one here is crawling into a hole.
We would like to be left in peace to pursue a hobby and to make good booze. We recognize that now is not the time to draw attention to ourselves. Your posts here are not doing any of us any good.

[Doogie]

It is easy to "fight the fight" and "check yer balls" when you are not the one getting a letter ...

Anyone suggesting people with stills on these lists, while they are not on any list, should "fight the fight" and walk into the cop shop with a carboy of likker, slam it down, and demand that they be given the right to distill. Come on - show if you have "balls" ...

Until then, that argument from those that are not facing any action should be ignored since it is not their "balls" on the line.

[Bayou-Ruler]

Well at the end of the day it is what it is, if you are in the USA and are producing distilled spirits in any amount it is illegal unless you have a permit.

http://www.ttb.gov/industrial/distillat ... anol.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c= ... no=27#_top" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/ ... r-J/part-I" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Desertrat]

I think it will be what political organization you are affiliated with as to who they are coming for.

[ThrownOlive]

I thought we were supposed to stay away from politics here?

[Stainless]

Hi, What was mentioned earlier about weapons, Dont work yer still in the same building or even on the same property where you have weapons, I dont know much about US laws, and they vary from state to state. Just be so f++++n careful you dont get done on a weapons charge for what may turn out to be a 'minor crime;
Stainless

[Jimbo]

Its not unlawful to own weapons here ThrownOlive. Most folks have a few.

[Dnderhead]

"Its not unlawful to own weapons here"
no but its a added charge .(having a weapon while committing a felony)
they also can confiscate anything used in/near the crime,cars,house,still etc..

[Stainless]

Hi,
@Jimbo, sorry but i think you got me cornfused with thrownolive. Just sayin that any old bit of wood or bit of rock/stone could be conceived as a weapon especially if you have it in your hands at the time the law visit you. in the eyes of the courts you would not be innocent if they find shine and weapons together.
take care and be safe
Stainless
edited to add
sorry
was was posting at the same time as 'The Master'
Dunderhead of course
Stainless

[Jimbo]

Thanks guys. Good point. Note taken.

[Oxbo Rene]

Beware of IFM's = (Internet Fed Moles) ...........................................

[pt49]

Why don't you guys just move... to Australia or New Zealand?

If you do, you can bring your still, but not your guns.

[goose eye]

This is my rifle
This is my gun
this is for fightin
this is for fun

On you feet commenced to runnin
You quit when I get tired


So im tole

[pt49]

This is my rifle
This is my gun
this is for fightin
this is for fun

On you feet commenced to runnin
You quit when I get tired

OK... tell that to the next coppa knocks on y'door!

[goose eye]

What the ole boys say when they is stoped is there's a weapon in this truck.
An they keep both hands on the wheel

So im tole