Pipe sizing?

[DistillIT]

I'm getting ready to start building my Keg pot still. I was wondering if there is a difference between using 2" tower or could I use 1 1/4" off the keg as my tower?

What's to gain by using all 2" compared to 1 1/4"?

[S-Cackalacky]

Nothing

[googe]

2" will be quicker, you won't need a reducer for the keg fitting. You can compare how it runs to others as most do 2". But if that's what you have and can't afford the 2" then go for it, we all started somewhere .

[DistillIT]

Hi Googe,

When you say quicker? How much quicker do you think? Are we talking about saving 15 min or saving ours?

The reason for my question is I found a website that sells the 2" x 1 1/4" flanged adapter welded to copper for cheap. Some of other sites are asking to much for the SS to copper adapter IMHO.

[friendly1uk]

The 2" is twice as fast. 1-2 lph

[DistillIT]

Ok thank you. I might go ahead and do the 2" then, I don't want to build something twice. I just want to get off of my pressure cooker and move up.

Thanks again.

[sambedded]

The 2" is twice as fast. 1-2 lph

BS. For pot still it's no any difference at speed. You can use any size starting from 1/2"

Speed defined by heating power and you need to have long enough condenser to utilize all that power.

[S-Cackalacky]

The 2" is twice as fast. 1-2 lph

BS. For pot still it's no any difference at speed. You can use any size starting from 1/2"

Speed defined by heating power and you need to have long enough condenser to utilize all that power.

+1

The only small advantage with the 2" might be to help (a wee bit) to cut down on problems with foam and even that would be of minimal benefit. Foaming problems are better addressed by leaving a good amount of head space in the boiler and keeping the heat under control.

S-C

[corene1]

I would have to agree. I don't believe you would see very much difference between 1 1/4 and 2 inch tube. My first still had a 4 inch column on it so it should have been a rocket if size dictates out put, but it only put out about 2 quarts per hour . I only had a small burner to run it. When I finally got a bigger burner that same still head can strip at 1 quart every 10 minuets. That tells me that the btu's in and the ability to condense the vapors efficiently dictate production time not size of the column within reason.

[F6Hawk]

I would have to agree. ... not size of the column...

Finally, a woman who says size does not matter. Corene, if'n I were single, I'd propose to you right here on HD!

The size of the column on a reflux still does make a difference. I think that is where friendly1uk is getting cornfused. As does the size of the condenser and the output tube. But think about it... on a pot still, the ONLY escape for liquid or vapor is the output tube. If your condenser can't keep up, you will get vapors out as well as liquid. So you either have to increase cooling, or reduce heat until only liquid is escaping. Not as likely on a pot still, though I guess it IS possible, with enough heat.

[googe]

Yes heat input and column size has to match the condenser, 2" will be quicker than 11/4 inch or we would all be running 1/2" columns, why spend all that money if 1/2" will do.what 4" will . 2" won't be quicker with a condenser to suit 11/4".

[sambedded]

some times ago many people believed that earth is flat. Now many people believe that 4" potstill much faster than 1".
In both cases it's justa lack of knowledge.

[corene1]

Yes heat input and column size has to match the condenser, 2" will be quicker than 11/4 inch or we would all be running 1/2" columns, why spend all that money if 1/2" will do.what 4" will . 2" won't be quicker with a condenser to suit 11/4".

That is pretty much why I said , " within reason" . Certainly a 1/2 inch column feeding a 1/2 inch diameter condenser would have it's problems as far as output. But I don't see how a 2inch would be faster than a 1 1/4 inch with the same 1/2 inch diameter condenser. If a condenser has a maximum amount of heat it can knock down , why would it matter if it was being fed by a 1 1/4 inch tube or a 2 inch tube? I think length of column versus diameter of column has a factor here also. With the pot being a constant and heat being a constant , the vapor velocities would also come into play as far as production wouldn't you think? An equal amount of vapor would have to travel faster in a 1 1/4 inch tube than a 2 inch tube so wouldn't a 1 1/4 inch tube need to be longer than a 2 inch tube to get the same separation?. Wouldn't this lead to more smearing and make cuts harder to make if they were the same length
? It seems that a slower vapor path would allow more separation to happen so cuts would be cleaner. That would put the check mark towards the 2 inch tube.
I love posts like this , just when you think you understand what is going on there is a question that makes you dig and start thinking and researching some more.

[corene1]

I would have to agree. ... not size of the column...

Finally, a woman who says size does not matter. Corene, if'n I were single, I'd propose to you right here on HD!

The size of the column on a reflux still does make a difference. I think that is where friendly1uk is getting cornfused. As does the size of the condenser and the output tube. But think about it... on a pot still, the ONLY escape for liquid or vapor is the output tube. If your condenser can't keep up, you will get vapors out as well as liquid. So you either have to increase cooling, or reduce heat until only liquid is escaping. Not as likely on a pot still, though I guess it IS possible, with enough heat.

HA! Not going to touch that one as this is an open forum!

[corene1]

Yes heat input and column size has to match the condenser, 2" will be quicker than 11/4 inch or we would all be running 1/2" columns, why spend all that money if 1/2" will do.what 4" will . 2" won't be quicker with a condenser to suit 11/4".

That is pretty much why I said , " within reason" . Certainly a 1/2 inch column feeding a 1/2 inch diameter condenser would have it's problems as far as output. But I don't see how a 2inch would be faster than a 1 1/4 inch with the same 1/2 inch diameter condenser. If a condenser has a maximum amount of heat it can knock down , why would it matter if it was being fed by a 1 1/4 inch tube or a 2 inch tube? I think length of column versus diameter of column has a factor here also. With the pot being a constant and heat being a constant , the vapor velocities would also come into play as far as production wouldn't you think? An equal amount of vapor would have to travel faster in a 1 1/4 inch tube than a 2 inch tube so wouldn't a 1 1/4 inch tube need to be longer than a 2 inch tube to get the same separation?. Wouldn't this lead to more smearing and make cuts harder to make if they were the same length
? It seems that a slower vapor path would allow more separation to happen so cuts would be cleaner. That would put the check mark towards the 2 inch tube.
I love posts like this , just when you think you understand what is going on there is a question that makes you dig and start thinking and researching some more.

This is on the parent site. http://homedistiller.org/equip/designs/make_pot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[friendly1uk]

The 2" is twice as fast. 1-2 lph

BS. For pot still it's no any difference at speed. You can use any size starting from 1/2"

Speed defined by heating power and you need to have long enough condenser to utilize all that power.

It's not b.s it is simply confusion. The op talks of a pot and a tower. He never says it is a pot still as such. If it is then size makes little odds here. I never really heard that though. I heard something about a 2" tower which tells a different story. Perhaps with the answers shifting so much mid thread the op should clarify what they are doing.

Your manners are appalling.

[S-Cackalacky]

The 2" is twice as fast. 1-2 lph

BS. For pot still it's no any difference at speed. You can use any size starting from 1/2"

Speed defined by heating power and you need to have long enough condenser to utilize all that power.

It's not b.s it is simply confusion. The op talks of a pot and a tower. He never says it is a pot still as such. If it is then size makes little odds here. I never really heard that though. I heard something about a 2" tower which tells a different story. Perhaps with the answers shifting so much mid thread the op should clarify what they are doing.

Your manners are appalling.

Not to jump into someone else argument, but actually the OP very clearly said it was a pot still. He said, "I'm getting ready to start building my Keg pot still." I don't see anything terribly confusing about that. New members here often use the terms column, tower, riser, head, etc. interchangeably.

Corene, I don't see the logic behind your assertion that the size/length of the riser could cause smearing. The speed that the vapor moves through the riser is mostly determined by the heat applied to the boiler and the narrowest point along the path (usually the out take). As long as the amount of heat being applied is appropriate, the volume of vapor in the vapor path is meaningless as related to smearing. Compared to a reflux still, every pot still experiences some level of smearing. That's why heat control is so important. If the out take is slow, smearing is minimized - crank up the heat (as in a stripping run) and the out take is very much smeared. I don't think there is evidence that shows that the size of the piping from the boiler to the out take has any significant effect on this phenomenon.

Just sayin',
S-C

[corene1]

The 2" is twice as fast. 1-2 lph

BS. For pot still it's no any difference at speed. You can use any size starting from 1/2"

Speed defined by heating power and you need to have long enough condenser to utilize all that power.

It's not b.s it is simply confusion. The op talks of a pot and a tower. He never says it is a pot still as such. If it is then size makes little odds here. I never really heard that though. I heard something about a 2" tower which tells a different story. Perhaps with the answers shifting so much mid thread the op should clarify what they are doing.

Your manners are appalling.

Not to jump into someone else argument, but actually the OP very clearly said it was a pot still. He said, "I'm getting ready to start building my Keg pot still." I don't see anything terribly confusing about that. New members here often use the terms column, tower, riser, head, etc. interchangeably.

Corene, I don't see the logic behind your assertion that the size/length of the riser could cause smearing. The speed that the vapor moves through the riser is mostly determined by the heat applied to the boiler and the narrowest point along the path (usually the out take). As long as the amount of heat being applied is appropriate, the volume of vapor in the vapor path is meaningless as related to smearing. Compared to a reflux still, every pot still experiences some level of smearing. That's why heat control is so important. If the out take is slow, smearing is minimized - crank up the heat (as in a stripping run) and the out take is very much smeared. I don't think there is evidence that shows that the size of the piping from the boiler to the out take has any significant effect on this phenomenon.

Just sayin',
S-C

Thanks, that is why I posted it as a question , because I don't quite understand the exact process and still have questions, what better way for everyone to learn, and discuss things. I read the parent site and it was saying that shape and height do in fact have a effect on flavor. If I read it right it was saying size and shape and length of the column does have a slight effect on refluxing inside the column and separating heavier fusil oils from the light esters, thus changing output flavor. I will probably read it a few more times to understand it more.. I would love it if the was some sort of equation that says X amount of volume At Y amount of heat Needs a column of this size and shape. but there isn't. I think that is why there are so many variables to making a simple pot still. Just wanting to learn and let the OP have as much information as is available to make his decision. They will all certainly work a some degree and as has been stated many times before . learning how to run the still is the most important part of any design.

[acfixer69]

The 2" is twice as fast. 1-2 lph

BS. For pot still it's no any difference at speed. You can use any size starting from 1/2"

Speed defined by heating power and you need to have long enough condenser to utilize all that power.

It's not b.s it is simply confusion. The op talks of a pot and a tower. He never says it is a pot still as such. If it is then size makes little odds here. I never really heard that though. I heard something about a 2" tower which tells a different story. Perhaps with the answers shifting so much mid thread the op should clarify what they are doing.

Your manners are appalling.

Not to jump into someone else argument, but actually the OP very clearly said it was a pot still. He said, "I'm getting ready to start building my Keg pot still." I don't see anything terribly confusing about that. New members here often use the terms column, tower, riser, head, etc. interchangeably.

Corene, I don't see the logic behind your assertion that the size/length of the riser could cause smearing. The speed that the vapor moves through the riser is mostly determined by the heat applied to the boiler and the narrowest point along the path (usually the out take). As long as the amount of heat being applied is appropriate, the volume of vapor in the vapor path is meaningless as related to smearing. Compared to a reflux still, every pot still experiences some level of smearing. That's why heat control is so important. If the out take is slow, smearing is minimized - crank up the heat (as in a stripping run) and the out take is very much smeared. I don't think there is evidence that shows that the size of the piping from the boiler to the out take has any significant effect on this phenomenon.

Just sayin',
S-C

You nailed it S-C vapor speed will adjust to pipe diameter. Heat input will determine vapor speed.

AC

[corene1]

So after a little thought, If vapor velocity and smearing are controlled by heat , wouldn't a 2 inch column put out more alcohol of the same quality than a 1 1/4 inch column in the same amount of time? Given that you would have to lower the heat to slow the vapor down in the 1 1/4 inch column to match the vapor speed in the 2 inch column? Less volume at equal speeds equals less product.

[friendly1uk]

So after a little thought, If vapor velocity and smearing are controlled by heat , wouldn't a 2 inch column put out more alcohol of the same quality than a 1 1/4 inch column in the same amount of time? Given that you would have to lower the heat to slow the vapor down in the 1 1/4 inch column to match the vapor speed in the 2 inch column? Less volume at equal speeds equals less product.

Sounds very much like the same ratio. Double. But I don't imagine they would be run to produce the same distillate.

[S-Cackalacky]

So after a little thought, If vapor velocity and smearing are controlled by heat , wouldn't a 2 inch column put out more alcohol of the same quality than a 1 1/4 inch column in the same amount of time? Given that you would have to lower the heat to slow the vapor down in the 1 1/4 inch column to match the vapor speed in the 2 inch column? Less volume at equal speeds equals less product.

Sounds very much like the same ratio. Double. But I don't imagine they would be run to produce the same distillate.

I'm not sure the amount of heat to push the same amount of vapor through a 1-1/2" tube and a 2" tube would be measurably different. Remember, the goal with a pot still spirit run is to produce a broken stream. So, given that constant, the same amount of liquid is leaving the still regardless of the size of the piping. The variable is the amount of heat you need to apply to achieve that broken stream. I could be wrong, but I don't think the difference in the amount of heat required to push the same volume of vapor through the two different sized pipes is enough to cause any significant difference in the separation of the cuts - that is, enough smearing to be concerned about.

About the parent site - I'm sure that most of the information holds up, but I also believe that some of the information is outdated. Many of the more experienced members on the forum have pointed this out. If a segment of the parent site is based on conjecture or someone's personal opinion, I tend to take it with a grain of salt.

S-C

[bearriver]

As a new guy my impression of a pot still is this: Make it from what is available, make it from safe materials, make it big enough for your needs. Takeoff size isnt a large concern. As long as you condense all the vapour, you should be safe.

Go with a boring, tried and true pot still design that you can afford. There are too many amazing examples here to count. People like us arent likely to improve on the designs floating around here thanks to the veteran members.

As with sc stated, the parent site is outdated. A grain of salt is needed. Ive seen rad and others make fine examples of this. They also say the good outweighs the bad. I trust their opinions on that.

[aussie_redneck]

Just to throw my still in the ring i have a 30lt urn with an 1800 watt element all my piping from the urn thru the thumper then the condensor is 3/4 id tube... on a 21 lt wash i have a 1 hour take off time then i can make roughly 3.5lts of likker in about 3 hours although i shut my still of when the abv hits 45% so i don't go deep into tails. I'm sure with a larger element and piping to suit i could increase these numbers but it suits me just fine for what i do..

[myles]

OK I will jump in here because IMO many folks do a few things that could be improved. Sure they may work - but could be improved.

POT STILL. Build or design your condenser first. Your condenser is designed to match your boiler power input. The vapour path going into the condenser should be the smallest part of the vapour path, and it should be as BIG as is practical.

A bigger vapour path means slower vapour, and this makes life easier for the condenser. If you restrict your vapour path and increase the speed, it just means that you need a bigger condenser to compensate. A 2" riser is fine on a keg and I would NOT go smaller than 3/4" even on a 1 gallon boiler.

REFLUX COLUMN. Vapour speed is what you need to look at. All packings or plates for that matter, operate over a particular range of vapour speeds.
You can take any column you like, increase the vapour speed and at some point it will run into trouble. It can't be avoided. You can run your column at the fastest possible speed, but it will be an unpleasant experience. So many things can go wrong when you push the limit that you need to pay constant attention. Mistakes escalate into problems very fast indeed.

When you increase the diameter you significantly increase the throughput. There is a big argument in favour of increasing the column size and running slower - to get the same product output as a smaller column running flat out.

If you really must go for the maximum possible product rate, then it is worth paying attention to the packings used as some (SPP for example) can work at higher vapour speeds than others.

As a rule of thumb for a conventional scrubber packed column.

2" - 0.75 litres/hour with 1.5 kW
3" - 2.5 to 3.8 litres/hour with 2.5 to 3 kW
4" - 4.5 to 5 litres per hour with 4.5 to 5 kW

[friendly1uk]

So after a little thought, If vapor velocity and smearing are controlled by heat , wouldn't a 2 inch column put out more alcohol of the same quality than a 1 1/4 inch column in the same amount of time? Given that you would have to lower the heat to slow the vapor down in the 1 1/4 inch column to match the vapor speed in the 2 inch column? Less volume at equal speeds equals less product.

Sounds very much like the same ratio. Double. But I don't imagine they would be run to produce the same distillate.

I'm not sure the amount of heat to push the same amount of vapor through a 1-1/2" tube and a 2" tube would be measurably different. Remember, the goal with a pot still spirit run is to produce a broken stream. So, given that constant, the same amount of liquid is leaving the still regardless of the size of the piping. The variable is the amount of heat you need to apply to achieve that broken stream. I could be wrong, but I don't think the difference in the amount of heat required to push the same volume of vapor through the two different sized pipes is enough to cause any significant difference in the separation of the cuts - that is, enough smearing to be concerned about.

About the parent site - I'm sure that most of the information holds up, but I also believe that some of the information is outdated. Many of the more experienced members on the forum have pointed this out. If a segment of the parent site is based on conjecture or someone's personal opinion, I tend to take it with a grain of salt.

S-C

My previous posts on this thread are regrettable. I had a few last night (when I was posting) and was lost in terminology. Still am infact, although I know what we are talking about in terms of physics.
The amount of vapour produced is down to the heat input, and the width of this tube is unlikely to be a bottleneck.


Interestingly, my riser is a 15mm flexi pipe.
http://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-copp ... 00mm/61598" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I can only call it a riser, not a column. Although my terminology don't fit in with this hobby yet.

[corene1]

So after a little thought, If vapor velocity and smearing are controlled by heat , wouldn't a 2 inch column put out more alcohol of the same quality than a 1 1/4 inch column in the same amount of time? Given that you would have to lower the heat to slow the vapor down in the 1 1/4 inch column to match the vapor speed in the 2 inch column? Less volume at equal speeds equals less product.

Sounds very much like the same ratio. Double. But I don't imagine they would be run to produce the same distillate.

I'm not sure the amount of heat to push the same amount of vapor through a 1-1/2" tube and a 2" tube would be measurably different. Remember, the goal with a pot still spirit run is to produce a broken stream. So, given that constant, the same amount of liquid is leaving the still regardless of the size of the piping. The variable is the amount of heat you need to apply to achieve that broken stream. I could be wrong, but I don't think the difference in the amount of heat required to push the same volume of vapor through the two different sized pipes is enough to cause any significant difference in the separation of the cuts - that is, enough smearing to be concerned about.

About the parent site - I'm sure that most of the information holds up, but I also believe that some of the information is outdated. Many of the more experienced members on the forum have pointed this out. If a segment of the parent site is based on conjecture or someone's personal opinion, I tend to take it with a grain of salt.

S-C

Sure does give a person something to think about though. I know the Irish whiskey stills have a very long tapered tower. Same for the Scotch whisky stills. All are very old stills, and most have a expansion area in them.

[corene1]

So after a little thought, If vapor velocity and smearing are controlled by heat , wouldn't a 2 inch column put out more alcohol of the same quality than a 1 1/4 inch column in the same amount of time? Given that you would have to lower the heat to slow the vapor down in the 1 1/4 inch column to match the vapor speed in the 2 inch column? Less volume at equal speeds equals less product.

Sounds very much like the same ratio. Double. But I don't imagine they would be run to produce the same distillate.

I'm not sure the amount of heat to push the same amount of vapor through a 1-1/2" tube and a 2" tube would be measurably different. Remember, the goal with a pot still spirit run is to produce a broken stream. So, given that constant, the same amount of liquid is leaving the still regardless of the size of the piping. The variable is the amount of heat you need to apply to achieve that broken stream. I could be wrong, but I don't think the difference in the amount of heat required to push the same volume of vapor through the two different sized pipes is enough to cause any significant difference in the separation of the cuts - that is, enough smearing to be concerned about.

About the parent site - I'm sure that most of the information holds up, but I also believe that some of the information is outdated. Many of the more experienced members on the forum have pointed this out. If a segment of the parent site is based on conjecture or someone's personal opinion, I tend to take it with a grain of salt.

S-C

Sure does give a person something to think about though. I know the Irish whiskey stills have a very long tapered tower. Same for the Scotch whisky stills. All are very old stills, and most have a expansion area in them. So with that thought in mind if the output is the same coming out of the condenser , being a broken stream. the same amount of vapor would have to be condensed so wouldn't the 1 1/4 inch tube have to move the vapor faster than the 2 inch tube to get an equal broken stream? Too much physics going on for my brain, but as I said before , sure does give a person something to think about. How many discussions like this do you think the Irish had while discussing there stills? I read at one time there were over 350 distilleries in Ireland. Probably more than one went to fisticuffs. Gotta love the Irish though!

[Hound Dog]

OP, bottom line, you are a hobby guy making a still out of a keg. Dont sweat all this theoretical super tecnical crap. If you have 1 1/4" pipe available, it will work just fine for you. Use what you have available. Make the best you can with it. If you really like it you will be making another still in the future I can promise you . Perhaps a simple boka , maybe a fancy flute , maybe some off the wall crazy idea we haven't thought of yet but you will build another so go with what you got! Get stillin'!

[corene1]

Hound Dog is right, use what you have . Build it using alcohol approved materials , and it will make alcohol. Sorry to jack the post with technical stuff but questions like this always create a good learning situation for everyone.