can you weld on kegs with oxy/acyt gas? or just solder?

[greybeard_biker]

I been reading here & havent built anything yet, but I have seen comments & want to ask opinions. can a torch be used to weld on the kegs? or should I only solder the connectors on since I dont have a TIG?

I do not own a tig, I have never needed one, & I do alot of welding however 99% is steel, with a little aluminum on a very rare occasion.

can a keg being used with "food" be welded with torch? or will it be too prone to cracking, & changing the metal structure?

I know heat control, but havent welded stainless steel for close to 30 years, & that was in college, I know I did a few things, but cant remember much, I have several different torch outfits, many sizes of tips, including air tips which I use when repairing an automotive radiator, I even have a Henrob, which I use like a plasma cutter. I can weld on rusty thin metal, as well as braze, I normally grab my torch first to weld, & the stick welder second.

I do own a MIG, & hate it, not used in quite a few years, I can do good with it, but I just dont like welding with it, to me you have less control & the weld is too hard, all other welding methods I can work & grind easier, & I have less cleanup, however I love stick welding, I put in a radiator support a couple weeks ago in a mid 90's Honda & used a stick welder, I own 5 from a small Lincoln tombstone, to a pull behind pipeline welder thats gasoline powered, anyway I used 1/16" rod & dialed welder to 20 amps. if the stick welder had been a problem I would have grabbed torch, & only as a last resort used the mig.

until now I have never needed a TIG, a torch is close to a tig, I just call it an electric torch, but puts out much more heat, and a foot control used to control heat instead of up & down movement of hand with torch to control heat into puddle. I have used them, but after 30+ years of torch work, I keep raising tig torch away from puddle, instead of releasing foot control, I had a friend that had one, but he sold it a few years ago, & I didnt need it, an expensive tool to sit around if you dont really need, & can do almost everything it can do.

[Truckinbutch]

Given your expertise with a torch ; that is what I would use . I'd use silver solder and /or brass . You will have enough tensile strength in the joints with less molecular change and heat distortion . Soldering stainless can be done but it is a pain in the ass compared to brazing .
Keep us updated .

[friendly1uk]

Yeah, get it done quick with a torch. As your both aware (but I will say it for others) longer heating times means more extensive heating of the surrounding area, and long term heating pushes the chromium out, meaning your joint will rust. Speed is key to preserving the stainless qualities.

[S-Cackalacky]

I would suggest PMing Corene1. She's a professional welder who does a lot of stainless fabrication type welding. She might be able to give you the best advice.

S-C

[wv_cooker]

You can use an oxygen & acetylene torch setup to solder or silver braze Stainless Steel. A mig is also very efficient at welding stainless and and stick welding is possible however a keg is pretty thin for stick. If you are comfortable with a torch and repair radiators silver brazing would be the way in my opinion.

[corene1]

I would suggest PMing Corene1. She's a professional welder who does a lot of stainless fabrication type welding. She might be able to give you the best advice.

S-C

Thanks S-C . A professional welder , that made me laugh . I have done it for close to 45 years though. As far as oxy acetylene welding of stainless I have never even attempted that as I have always had a TIG torch handy. I would think the exposure to atmosphere would completely contaminate the weld puddle causing oxidation , brittleness and rusting. That is why MIG or TIG uses an inert gas shield. Argon or helium for TIG and Tri-Mix for wire. I would surely stick with silver brazing. If He is really good with stick welding he could go to the supply store and get some 1/16- 316 stainless stick rod and do it. Practice on some scrap first as a keg is quite thin and concentrate on keeping the heat on the collar as it is thicker and will absorb the excess heat a little better. I have done it but it was VERY touchy, a tight fit is a must, no gaps anywhere. Set the machine at about 50 amps but as I said do some testing as every machine is slightly different. I would seriously suggest the silver braze though. Quick , simple , and clean, very strong also. 1 ounce of good silver braze will run about $30 dollars.
Maybe VW_Cooker will chime in here , He too has done a lot of different types of welding procedures.

[corene1]

You can use an oxygen & acetylene torch setup to solder or silver braze Stainless Steel. A mig is also very efficient at welding stainless and and stick welding is possible however a keg is pretty thin for stick. If you are comfortable with a torch and repair radiators silver brazing would be the way in my opinion.

We were posting at the same time. Yes , I would agree Silver brazing is the way to go!

[outlawokee]

If you are going to use a stick welder there is a AC rod for a ac welder and DC rod for a dc welder for stainless and look for a high end rod and practice good luck

[pounsfos]

used a mig to weld my keg

look at my signaturew for a close up on how I did it

works fine, a little rust as he didn't use a stick just straight welding, will remove it one day and move to TIG

[corene1]

If you are going to use a stick welder there is a AC rod for a ac welder and DC rod for a dc welder for stainless and look for a high end rod and practice good luck

Use DC as AC will splatter like crazy!

[wv_cooker]

Thanks S-C . A professional welder , that made me laugh . I have done it for close to 45 years though. As far as oxy acetylene welding of stainless I have never even attempted that as I have always had a TIG torch handy. I would think the exposure to atmosphere would completely contaminate the weld puddle causing oxidation , brittleness and rusting. That is why MIG or TIG uses an inert gas shield. Argon or helium for TIG and Tri-Mix for wire. I would surely stick with silver brazing. If He is really good with stick welding he could go to the supply store and get some 1/16- 316 stainless stick rod and do it. Practice on some scrap first as a keg is quite thin and concentrate on keeping the heat on the collar as it is thicker and will absorb the excess heat a little better. I have done it but it was VERY touchy, a tight fit is a must, no gaps anywhere. Set the machine at about 50 amps but as I said do some testing as every machine is slightly different. I would seriously suggest the silver braze though. Quick , simple , and clean, very strong also. 1 ounce of good silver braze will run about $30 dollars.
Maybe VW_Cooker will chime in here , He too has done a lot of different types of welding procedures.

Nothing to chime in on a perfect explanation of why welding stainless with a torch doesn't work. Even if you are able to overcome oxidation and the rapid contamination that happens when applying torch heat to stainless and get a decent looking bead on stainless it will remain brittle a crack open in short time. My number one choice is tig, for a little thicker materials mig makes a gorgeous weld however the use of an inert shielding gas and purging is highly recommended to prevent sugaring and contamination. So if the OP uses silver solder and a torch to repair radiators as most radiator repair shops do It would be highly recommended to use what you know and silver braze the stainless. Stick can be done but why chance it again would need purging metal thin enough to worry about burn through and melting, to many if's, If the OP is familiar with silver brazing or soldering the simple answer is use what you know best and don't take a chance on wasting a precious keg and money. Corene is spot on and very knowledgeable.

[S-Cackalacky]

Cooker, I didn't realize you were a welder too. Good to know I have two experts to turn to with my questions. Oh, and the OP makes three.

S-C

[FreeMountainHermit]

I do own a MIG, & hate it, not used in quite a few years, I can do good with it, but I just dont like welding with it, to me you have less control & the weld is too hard,

Agree heartily. It's all about your comfort zone and time on or away for the job. For doing stainless work on a keg with a torch I'm going with silver brazing just for the sheer strength of it as compared to silver solder.

Mig welded thousands of 18-20 gauge gas tanks when I worked for Harley-Davidson. If there's a #47 or #51 stamped on the front mount please don't tell me it leaks. Haven't had one come back yet.

FMH.

[greybeard_biker]

I have only silver brazed a few broken cables that were on automatic transmissions where the button you pushed with thumb pulled a cable that allowed you to engage the tranny into gear.

my soldering experience is only on a little bit of household plumbing & that was years ago at parents house. however I have done alot of radiator soldering, as well as heater cores. soldered old tanks to new cores, as well as wiring.

my heat control is excelent with torches, thats my thing. lol. I rebuilt a friends thin metal vintage mailbox post since Haloween, it had rusted through & I cut a few sections out & welded in new, plus made some brackets for a friends motorcycle, as well as welding a cracked dash on a vintage tractor that was cracked & rusted bad. back I was taking body shop classes, & professor was old school, from a bygone era, we studied torch welding books from the 1940's students had to rebuild bodies without bondo, just metal work, & torch & copper coated wire. along with files & lead, when we were finally allowed to use MIG if we wanted, I still preferred the torch, & learned the old methods. 25 + years later I still prefer torch work, the ease of the metal to work and filing or sanding the beads down plus being able to heat & hammer weld & shrink the beads which cant happen with MIG.

as for statement about the argon, if I attached an extra nozzle to my torch & fed my Co2/argon through it directly to weld? or just flushed the weld area or partially capped keg & introduced it to insides of keg? I have a 25/75 tank & would only need a hose from regulator to a custom nozzle, I have no doubs on my welding ability with a torch, just have to practice a little on scrap. as for the 1/16" stick welding rods, I know I can do it, but I also know I may also have a blow out easily too, even if I use one of my gas powered welders, with a fine adjustment on the amperage. I have both AC & DC welders, and I know I can lay a nicer bead on super thin stuff with a torch everytime, I prefer to use stick when I am welding big stuff like building a car trailer, or rebuilding a wrecked trailer, or heavy farm equipment, but can adapt to do whatever, & know I can fill in any blowouts, but I also know a blowout will leave residue inside where you cant get to, to grind unless I had a long reach straight shaft grinder.

as for my hate of MIG welders, the cheap china welders have helped breed it, every hobbiest thinks they can lay a bead down because they own a welder & what they welded holds, at least for now, I read alot in automotive forums, I have seen soo much bad, & soo many cold welds, & scray things, & I know how hard it is to weld with a mig, I can lay a nice bead, but I can lay a nicer bead with the stick welder, & I dont have to second guess about penetration. think about it, would you rather have a car trailer built with a guy MIG welding it? or it being stick welded with 7018 rod? & all beads look nice, with the stick you know you always have the penetration if you did your part, while the MIG can lay a weld on top of metal & be ready to break, but look nice & pretty, all you got to do is turn wire speed a little high & move a little too fast & poof no penetration, but a nice looking bead.

[corene1]

I do own a MIG, & hate it, not used in quite a few years, I can do good with it, but I just dont like welding with it, to me you have less control & the weld is too hard,

Agree heartily. It's all about your comfort zone and time on or away for the job. For doing stainless work on a keg with a torch I'm going with silver brazing just for the sheer strength of it as compared to silver solder.

Mig welded thousands of 18-20 gauge gas tanks when I worked for Harley-Davidson. If there's a #47 or #51 stamped on the front mount please don't tell me it leaks. Haven't had one come back yet.

FMH.

Sorry I had to fix one last week. mounting lug cracked the tank. sorry couldn't resist!!!!

[FreeMountainHermit]

Betcha it was a half tank and it was up front and the root cause was that it wasn't shimmed properly.

What year bike ?


FMH.

[corene1]

Betcha it was a half tank and the root cause was that it wasn't shimmed properly.


FMH.

Just messin with ya. It was one of those cheap aftermarket tanks. I think it was as close to paper as you could get .

[FreeMountainHermit]

Don't toy with me !!!!!!

FMH

[greybeard_biker]

that I hear you on shimming tanks, guys just think they can bolt tanks on & tighten until tight, & not even think of how much stress they are putting on the tabs, the same can be said for inner primaries, as well as engine boss where guys have to bolt things together. Harleys have to have shims to fit properly, & I am not going to go into the Chinese / tiawenese bolt on chrome & stuff that needs lots of massaging to fit.

[corene1]

I have only silver brazed a few broken cables that were on automatic transmissions where the button you pushed with thumb pulled a cable that allowed you to engage the tranny into gear.

my soldering experience is only on a little bit of household plumbing & that was years ago at parents house. however I have done alot of radiator soldering, as well as heater cores. soldered old tanks to new cores, as well as wiring.

my heat control is excelent with torches, thats my thing. lol. I rebuilt a friends thin metal vintage mailbox post since Haloween, it had rusted through & I cut a few sections out & welded in new, plus made some brackets for a friends motorcycle, as well as welding a cracked dash on a vintage tractor that was cracked & rusted bad. back I was taking body shop classes, & professor was old school, from a bygone era, we studied torch welding books from the 1940's students had to rebuild bodies without bondo, just metal work, & torch & copper coated wire. along with files & lead, when we were finally allowed to use MIG if we wanted, I still preferred the torch, & learned the old methods. 25 + years later I still prefer torch work, the ease of the metal to work and filing or sanding the beads down plus being able to heat & hammer weld & shrink the beads which cant happen with MIG.

as for statement about the argon, if I attached an extra nozzle to my torch & fed my Co2/argon through it directly to weld? or just flushed the weld area or partially capped keg & introduced it to insides of keg? I have a 25/75 tank & would only need a hose from regulator to a custom nozzle, I have no doubs on my welding ability with a torch, just have to practice a little on scrap. as for the 1/16" stick welding rods, I know I can do it, but I also know I may also have a blow out easily too, even if I use one of my gas powered welders, with a fine adjustment on the amperage. I have both AC & DC welders, and I know I can lay a nicer bead on super thin stuff with a torch everytime, I prefer to use stick when I am welding big stuff like building a car trailer, or rebuilding a wrecked trailer, or heavy farm equipment, but can adapt to do whatever, & know I can fill in any blowouts, but I also know a blowout will leave residue inside where you cant get to, to grind unless I had a long reach straight shaft grinder.

as for my hate of MIG welders, the cheap china welders have helped breed it, every hobbiest thinks they can lay a bead down because they own a welder & what they welded holds, at least for now, I read alot in automotive forums, I have seen soo much bad, & soo many cold welds, & scray things, & I know how hard it is to weld with a mig, I can lay a nice bead, but I can lay a nicer bead with the stick welder, & I dont have to second guess about penetration. think about it, would you rather have a car trailer built with a guy MIG welding it? or it being stick welded with 7018 rod? & all beads look nice, with the stick you know you always have the penetration if you did your part, while the MIG can lay a weld on top of metal & be ready to break, but look nice & pretty, all you got to do is turn wire speed a little high & move a little too fast & poof no penetration, but a nice looking bead.

I still believe that silver brazing is the way to go, But you can try some of your methods and get back to us to show us how they work. We can always learn something new. Just a tidbit on MIG. Any newer production trailer you see rolling down the road today is MIG welded, be it steel or aluminum. Even the big tractors and heavy equipment we work on is MIG welded . It is all dual shield. Very fast and Very strong almost no cleanup either. We make a pumping unit tie down system where I work and it is all MIG welded using ER70-6 wire and 75-25 argon co2 mix also and has a minimum pull test of 52,000 pounds. So the welds if done properly are very strong.

[FreeMountainHermit]

GB, let's not even get into engine alignment and shimming the top motor mount.

Can you say broken freakin' cases. $$$$$$$$$$ I got a guy that can fix anything in that dept.

FMH.

[corene1]

GB, let's not even get into engine alignment and shimming the top motor mount.

Can you say broken freakin' cases. $$$$$$$$$$ I got a guy that can fix anything in that dept.

FMH.

HAHHAHA been there done that. welded many a broken case. Good thing is they are thick , makes them easy to fix.

[FreeMountainHermit]

About the trailers. Some of the cheaper MIG units can do a pretty good job if you grind off the mill scale down to the parent metal.

Production welding sucks. same ol' shit every day. I miss the x-ray machine on pipe jobs. If somebody flunked on film we used to tease the heck out of them. Me included (blushing here)

FMH.

[greybeard_biker]

I dont mean to say all shops do bad work, I have seen some very good work, but very little good work around where I live, but many small shops that do welding do not do good work, I know of several heavily advertised places that build their trailers in-house, & they are MIG welded, & I also had to re-attach a leaf spring hanger earleir this year on one that broke off, and it was under 1 year old, plus have seen what comes out of the shops, poor workmanship around here.

I know MIG can be great, but when a place hires anyone off street, sticks a welder in inexperienced hands & pay slightly over minimum wage, you couldnt pay me to own or haul one of the trailers built with MIG around the parts where I live. I do know of one place about 30 miles away that builds using stick still, besides us. & we only build on request, and dont advertise, as mostly we do mechanic work, & occasionally some body work, but we do repair trailers when asked.

anyway I will give it a try after the new year, will try silverbrazing first. & go from there. this is just a new avenue to work on my skills.

[corene1]

About the trailers. Some of the cheaper MIG units can do a pretty good job if you grind off the mill scale down to the parent metal.

Production welding sucks. same ol' shit every day. I miss the x-ray machine on pipe jobs. If somebody flunked on film we used to tease the heck out of them. Me included (blushing here)

FMH.

That is why I love my shop, we do a little bit of everything there. Haven't done much pipe but we were 6G certified for a few years as we were doing pressure vessels but California regs made it too hard to make any money. $10,000 dollars for the R stamp and had to pay a state inspector to be on site for the duration every weld. I have worked on everything from tiny little pieces in stainless steel gas monitoring devices . all the way up to the big klinker mills for Cal Portland cement. Worked on a tractor pull tractor a few weeks ago. Always something different coming in.

[Truckinbutch]

My hat is off to all the expertise shown on this thread . Many pros have responded . I think that what is missing is 'What does it take to catch the coon ?' . High level skills and techniques are to be revered where applicable . Do ya really need all that involvement in what is , basicily , a low stress/low pressure join to maintain a leak free vapor path in the most economic manner ? New readers are gonna get scared off because they can't do this high level work and get the idea that this is the only way to go .

[FreeMountainHermit]

Ever do any heat treat jobs ? Ultrasound tests ? Looked like I worked in a coal mine doing them I was so black. Got my 6G cert. & stamp registered at the National Bureau of Standards. Really miss the work and all the fitment but when H-D called it was time to move on. $$$$$$$$$$$$$

Eventually the Co. I used to work for folded because they made the best damn petroleum/Pharmaceutical/chemical/industrial refigeration units in the world and the economy couldn't handle the price.High pressure stuff 6000 psi. We had testers so sensitive they could find a mouse fart in the Astrodome

Honestly don't know if I could pass a 6G test again. Miss running 7018. On jobs where we could weld on a positioner we would cap the 7018 with a pass of 7024. Made a joint so purty you'd wanna slap yo' momma

FMH.

[corene1]

My hat is off to all the expertise shown on this thread . Many pros have responded . I think that what is missing is 'What does it take to catch the coon ?' . High level skills and techniques are to be revered where applicable . Do ya really need all that involvement in what is , basicily , a low stress/low pressure join to maintain a leak free vapor path in the most economic manner ? New readers are gonna get scared off because they can't do this high level work and get the idea that this is the only way to go .

That is why I think silver brazing is the best and strongest attachment that can be made using basic knowledge and simple tools. The Harris stay brite 8 solder is very good for the keg connection. A little stronger than pure lead free and not so expensive as high end silver brazing material.

By the way my son has a new Walker hound puppy, gonna be fun!

[FreeMountainHermit]

Do ya really need all that involvement in what is , basicily , a low stress/low pressure joint to maintain a leak free vapor path in the most economic manner ? New readers are gonna get scared off because they can't do this high level work and get the idea that this is the only way to go .

Nope, Silver brazing on kegs and lead free solder on copper will get you to home plate in our hobby. TIG & MIG are nice but brazing and soldering can be done by anyone in their garage or shop. Just take the time to practice on scrap metal


FMH.

[corene1]

My hat is off to all the expertise shown on this thread . Many pros have responded . I think that what is missing is 'What does it take to catch the coon ?' . High level skills and techniques are to be revered where applicable . Do ya really need all that involvement in what is , basicily , a low stress/low pressure join to maintain a leak free vapor path in the most economic manner ? New readers are gonna get scared off because they can't do this high level work and get the idea that this is the only way to go .

That is why I think silver brazing is the best and strongest attachment that can be made using basic knowledge and simple tools. The Harris stay brite 8 solder is very good for the keg connection. A little stronger than pure lead free and not so expensive as high end silver brazing material, lower temperature also. I think we got a little off track just talking shop. There is certainly no need for any certifications or years of welding knowledge to make a pot still that is for sure. A little copper and solder with a little thought processing and some tinkering is about it all takes. My still is certainly no technical marvel as I really like simplicity but it works and makes some fine whiskey, that is all that matters to me. I promise I will try to keep it simple from now on.

By the way my son has a new Walker hound puppy, gonna be fun!