Small Batch Proofing

[WestCoast]

1) Is there as minimum batch size for an alcoholmeter to be effective, or am i making a false assumption?

As ling as you can get enough to fill your test cylinder. So your hydrometer will float.
If you can't float a hydrometer. You need to make a bigger batch. Because you wouldn't be able to make good cuts. If your not getting enough to test with a hydrometer.

A parrot on a 3 gallon boka would be worthless. Assuming its giving you 90%+ ABV.
2 gal at 10% would be around 1.6 pints of 100% ABV. So around 1.8 pints of product.just enough for a part to smear the crap out of. No mater what size it was.

Truthfully I would be working more about increasing the boiler and batch sizes. The trying to figure out how to test the small amount you get now.

While i would like to go bigger, space and $$ have me restricted to my current size. I am hoping that running a "parakeet" in line will help give me some idea of whats going on with minimal smearing.

-WC-

[WestCoast]

A parrot on a 3 gallon boka would be worthless. Assuming its giving you 90%+ ABV.
2 gal at 10% would be around 1.6 pints of 100% ABV. So around 1.8 pints of product.just enough for a part to smear the crap out of. No mater what size it was.

I made a run this week, and have to agree with your assessment. I started with 5 gallons at 8%, worked that down to 3/4 gallon at 25%, and then ended up with 1 cup of final drinkable product at 80%. That said, i think i still managed to smear my cuts and ended up with some off flavors. So i think to run anything off the boka, i will need to start doubling or even tripling up my batches (2+ gallons of low wines), just to smooth out my cuts. I am going to have to figure out a more cost affective way to make a vodka. All that said, if i tune down the boka for a rum or whiskey then a parrot could be very useful.

-WC-

[Hound Dog]

bigger boiler....

[T-Pee]

bigger boiler....

tp

[WestCoast]

bigger boiler....

tp

OUCH! I got burned.

-WC-

(corrected for improper use of quoting)

[T-Pee]

bigger boiler....

OUCH! I got burned.
tp

If you're gonna quote me, quote me accurately, k?

tp

[WestCoast]

Weird, not really sure how that happened.

Sorry, no offense was meant.

-WC-


Figured out what i did wrong. Wrote inside of the quoted HTML code. My bad. Live and learn.

[T-Pee]

No worries. I'm not into hunting people down for an html mistake.

tp

[BigSwede]

From another thread...

You thought wrong. Try putting some samples of your spirits on your refractometer and you'll see what I mean. You could make a conversion chart, but I would guess the alcohol would eventually wreck the cover. They might be cheap to replace now, I've never checked.

NZChris, have you made any progress on your Laser Parrot?

I read the site you linked... fascinating stuff. I couldn't resist and ordered 3 acrylic hollow prisms off the internet. They were dirt cheap at $3 each. There are also hollow glass prisms available for about $10 U.S.

I'm going to mess with this a bit as well. The concept is cool as hell. Distillate drains into prism, overflows into collection, and all the while the laser angle lets you know the proof while refracting onto a white backing board or similar.

[Jimbo]

Swede,

Acrylic 'crazes' with contact to ethanol. It will fill with tons of little cracks and become very brittle then shatter in your hand with very little pressure. Shoulda sprung for a glass one.

[BigSwede]

Swede,

Acrylic 'crazes' with contact to ethanol. It will fill with tons of little cracks and become very brittle then shatter in your hand with very little pressure. Shoulda sprung for a glass one.

Darn... thanks for the head's up. I'm only out a few $$.

I do have a couple lasers and a bottle of commercial 95 proof ethanol. Maybe I can at least verify that a rig can be set up and yes indeed we get refraction obvious enough to track with a white wall chart or similar.

[heartcut]

Swede, did you find a hollow glass prism that was just glass, or maybe bound with teflon? I looked and only found hollow glass prisms that were a bunch of flat pieces bound together with plastic- probably not ethanol friendly. This is a cool idea.

[NZChris]

Acrylic is ok for proving to yourself that the concept works, but I wouldn't go building a laser parrot out of it.

I know the concept works and how it works, and that a home brewed version is feasible, but I don't need one and even if I did have one, I would still be relying on my nose, tongue and fingers at any critical points if doing cuts on the fly.

[BigSwede]

Swede, did you find a hollow glass prism that was just glass, or maybe bound with teflon? I looked and only found hollow glass prisms that were a bunch of flat pieces bound together with plastic- probably not ethanol friendly. This is a cool idea.

A Google search of "hollow glass prism" reveals just ONE type of prism that is put together somewhere, probably in Asia, for use in science classes and the like. It's not expensive, looks kind of clunky, and is probably just three glass plates glued together with optical cement - just guessing there - and doesn't look to be something a guy could use for production. But for experimenting, proof of concept, yes.

There MUST be something decent out there, but I couldn't find it.

Does it have to be a prism shape? We're not looking to make a pretty rainbow, just trying to bend a beam of light. Refraction takes place at the junction between air and a liquid, like the classic "pencil in a glass of water" trick. Maybe it would work with a nice optically clean rectangular vessel if you hit it with the laser at a correct angle.

NZChris - understand completely what you are saying, but I'm a bit of a geek with science, and this sort of thing is just for fun.

[heartcut]

Perfume bottles might just come in a shape with approximately 90 degrees between two faces, and the high dollar ones tend to be optically clean just for looks.

[BigSwede]

Perfume bottles might just come in a shape with approximately 90 degrees between two faces, and the high dollar ones tend to be optically clean just for looks.

Time to raid the Wife's side of the bathroom!

If she doesn't have one, I can shop for one and simply claim "birthday gift."

One thing I'm dying to try - I have a lapping machine that is used to sharpen carbide tooling. It uses diamond laps to cut, and some of the wheels are fine enough to turn a piece of steel into a mirror. Should be able to grind glass with ease. The trick is going to be taking it beyond experimental/prototype, and turning it into something more than an experimental gadget.

[Jimbo]

Get her some nice perfume for xmas, when she asks why her Chanel #5 came in an old plastic medicine bottle tell her ..... I dunno what to tell her,.... youll have to come up with something good here.

[NZChris]

The laser only has to pass through two faces. If the third side was copper, it could incorporate the mounts and collector funnel.

The parrot could leak a bit. It only has to maintain a level above the laser.

I could knock something up using sheet glass and the copper foil in my stained glass toolbox.

[BigSwede]

Acrylic prisms came in. With chemist daughter attending, we did some simple experiments.

The laser was fixed in a vise, and the prism was also fixed. Laser on, we marked the dot on the wall which was roughly four feet away. Next, filled it with water. Laser on, wow! The dot moved a good 18" on the wall, a huge jump and more than I expected.

Water out, 95% ABW in. Laser on. Hmm, yes the target dot moved, but only by about 1/2 inch from the water dot. So H2O to 95% EtOH caused movement, but only slight.

We need some way to "amplify" the dot movement. Either the target needs to be 30 feet away (not practical) or somehow with optics or mirrors, the slight displacement must become more visible on a printed chart or graph. Not knowing jack about optics, I'm shelving this for now, but I can confirm that yes it's definitely possible.

I just like the thought of glancing at a wall chart and seeing a bright laser spot moving crisply across a graph of 0% to 95% EtOH. I think it'd be cool.

[LBHD]

The depth of the liquid could also affect the distance the beam is refracted- could get a bigger prism? Although it still wont move too much as water and alcohol are very similar density --

Air is something like 1.25 kg/m3, water is 1000 kg/m3, ethanol is ~800 kg/m3.

So the 18" jump is for a 800:1 ratio of density. The ethanol/water ratio is only 8:10.

I like the idea of mirrors making your target farther, but i would worry about shooting my eye out!

edit:

Also, the angle of entry can make a big difference too - try and maximize the amount of liquid your beam is going through?

[Jimbo]

I just like the thought of glancing at a wall chart and seeing a bright laser spot moving crisply across a graph of 0% to 95% EtOH. I think it'd be cool.

Hell yes, that'd be very cool. Line up all 3 prisms side by side, so the laser has to travel through them all?

[BigSwede]

We tried more experiments yesterday. My statement of only 1/2" movement was incorrect. With some fiddling, we got a good 10" movement between water and ethanol with a target 6 feet away. I unleashed my daughter and let her mess with it in detail. She mixed up a number of samples, varying alcohol, and we tried them all.

What we found was apparently non-linear. The spots on the wall looked like this, where

A = pure ethanol
B = 75%
C = 50%
D = 25%
E = pure water

A-----------------B--------C----D--E

Which is actually good because the area of interest (A to B) is expanded.

But... repeatability was difficult, results not consistent, and I'd chalk it up completely to cheap crappy plastic prisms and a poor setup in terms of rigidity. And the target was 6 feet away.

I think it'd work fine with a non-prism shape. The critical thing is the laser has to hit at a certain angle, and outside of that, it doesn't work well.

Jimbo - we tried it, and it has huge potential, each prism is like a transistor, boosting the initial output. Got to make a better setup.

LBHD - I'm not sure the amount of liquid the beam travels through changes the angle. The shift happens at the point where the laser enters the container.

More to come, but we really need to find an optical glass container of accuracy. These plastic prisms suck.

[Jimbo]

haha cool. did they start developing cracks and getting brittle yet?

[BigSwede]

Not yet... but the ethanol is cool. I'm sure hotter ethanol would hose them big time. Plus, acrylic in a real still would violate the "no plastics" rule in a big way.

Oh yes, forgot to mention, fores would probably melt them into a puddle! Acetone-like solvents and acrylic, NOT good!

[Jimbo]

I used a piece of acrylic racking cane as a wine thief a few times to pull samples of 62% whiskey out of a barrel. The plastic tube developed these weird cracks (crazing) and then shattered into several pieces when I set it softly on the table once. Ive since bought a glass wine (whiskey) thief.