Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Hawkeye3 · Post by **Hawkeye3** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:40 pm

Check the seal on the fermentor???

Post by **lampshade** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:54 pm

Hawkeye3 wrote:Check the seal on the fermentor???

I bought some 5 gal fermentation buckets. They seemed to form a good lock when I put the tops on. However the air lock doesn't cycle, so I assume they leak. Instead of using air lock activity to gauge whether the fermentation is complete, I just look for the liquid to clear.

claytonhaske · Post by **claytonhaske** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:02 am

Hawkeye3 wrote:Check the seal on the fermentor???

its just 6.5 Gallon bucket with a removable lid that has a small hole with a rubber gasket for the airlock to go. I never thought of it not being sealed properly.......its defeniatly still working, when I check the sg, which is 1010 now.......I still got some activity inside the bucket, not clear yet, I will use that and the sg as a gauge as to when its done. cant wait!!!!!!

Hunter87 · Post by **Hunter87** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:35 am

once your fermentation starts to slow down and the gravity drops , airlock activity is going to drop as well. The gasses will build up and eventually burp one out.

Post by **lampshade** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:28 pm

claytonhaske wrote: I still got some activity inside the bucket, not clear yet, I will use that and the sg as a gauge as to when its done. cant wait!!!!!!

claytonhaske, in case you don't know already, the clear wash will not be colorless. It will look like apple cider, especially if you boiled the sugar to invert it. The important thing is that the yeast has settled to the bottom and that you can see through the wash. If you don't wait and, instead, distill the wash with the yeast still in suspension, then you run the risk of scorching the yeast, which will produce a god-awful smell when you open the boiler and an off-flavor taste in the distillate. This is especially true of sugar washes.

claytonhaske · Post by **claytonhaske** » Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:59 pm

lampshade wrote:claytonhaske, in case you don't know already, the clear wash will not be colorless. It will look like apple cider, especially if you boiled the sugar to invert it. The important thing is that the yeast has settled to the bottom and that you can see through the wash. If you don't wait and, instead, distill the wash with the yeast still in suspension, then you run the risk of scorching the yeast, which will produce a god-awful smell when you open the boiler and an off-flavor taste in the distillate. This is especially true of sugar washes.

yes, it is the color of apple cider. checked the gravity again today, still at 1010, but the activity has stopped. should I rack it off into another bucket? or should I wait a couple more days to rack it off??? thanks, clayton.

victor · Post by **victor** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:58 pm

I'll be trying this recipe Friday, I'm going to try 2 batches one with distillers yeast and one with regular dry yeast!! I want to see if I can taste the difference after the "refluxing" is the taste that noticeable?

claytonhaske · Post by **claytonhaske** » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:54 pm

sg is at 1009 today. no more action in the fermenter, and the wash is clearing. I will rack it off tomorrow.

victor · Post by **victor** » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:15 pm

Definitely a difference from the start!! Bakers yeast is taking off!!

Post by **lampshade** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:49 pm

victor wrote:Definitely a difference from the start!! Bakers yeast is taking off!!

Victor, why is your wash brown? Did you boil the sugar (while inverting) for a long time? When I invert, I only boil the sugar water until it is a light straw color, but, if I boil longer the sugar water does eventually turn darker.

Also, my wineos never takes off like yours did. I wonder why? The only time my wineos did take off like that was when I once used turbo yeast.

victor · Post by **victor** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:47 pm

its not brown, it was a light golden color prior to adding yeast, then after pitching turned cloudy white, I only let my water temp get up to 100 when dissolving sugar. the heating blanket is green in color might be adding color. I hydrated both yeast in warm water and a dash of sugar before adding instead of sprinkling on top also. I had this head on both about 3 hours after adding with bubbles every 3-5 secs, I wish I found the tip of using cooking oil as a defoamer prior to pitching bakers yeast cause it ran over twice!!

victor · Post by **victor** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:55 pm

I also added 1.5 juiced limes, I love lime in my neutrals!

J_48_Johnson · Post by **J_48_Johnson** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:26 pm

I made this wash tonight, this is my first one of any kind...ever. I wasn't sure what to expect but here's what I have going on.

I followed the recipe to a tee. After I got it into the carboy I started bubbling away. At first, I was getting 5 a minute, but after three hours I'm getting like 45 a minute. There is a little foam on the top, but it really isn't growing to speak of, just staying consistant. The smell coming from the airlock is just a yeasty, rising bread smell, very pleasant. I wasn't sure when to check the starting SG, before or after adding the yeast. (I checked it after adding the yeast, letting it sit for 15 minutes, stirred everything up, and poured it into the carboy). At the time I poured it into the carboy, the SG was 1066 which I believe is good. Yes? The temp. was a little warmer than maybe it should have been, 78F.

I have a question on the action of "pitching" the yeast. I think I did it right, but I want to make sure. Once everything was added, mixed, dissolved, correct temp. etc...I poured everything into my bucket. I gave it another good stir then sprinkled the yeast on top of it and let it sit for 15 minutes. Is their a reason why you kind of lay it on top of the liquid rather than dumping it in and stirring it up?

I've read on the parent site that the higher temp. at this point will give you some not so wanted things, mainly an unpleasant flavor. I've also read here in the forums that people use electric blankets, aquarium heaters and the like to keep everything nice & toasty. Which is right?

Sorry for the ramblings of this lunatic mind, but I want to make sure this comes out well.

victor · Post by **victor** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:57 am

From my past experience, I have always added dry yeast (turbo) then mix with mixer blade on drill to break up any clumps and to aerate!! With success and a lot of work after to cleanup spirits, After joining site I started reading about "hydrating" yeast (bakers/distillers) first ( put required yeast in bowl with warm water to rehydrate) I teased my batch with a little sugar too, then add and stirred as I use to do!! I don't know if makes a difference, but it make sense to me on a "science kinda of way" to rehydrate before adding to dehydrated yeast. I would imagine that getting dumped into a "hyper osmotic solution" (a lot of stuff in solution)(if you will !

) can be a bit of a shock!! As far as heating, I use electric blanket $20, wash is sealed no chance for any contamination and I use a laser thermometer to shoot temps !! Works for me!!

Post by **T-Pee** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:41 am

J_48_Johnson wrote:I wasn't sure when to check the starting SG, before or after adding the yeast. (I checked it after adding the yeast, letting it sit for 15 minutes, stirred everything up, and poured it into the carboy).

I usually check SG before yeasting but I don't think it really matters.

At the time I poured it into the carboy, the SG was 1066 which I believe is good. Yes? The temp. was a little warmer than maybe it should have been, 78F.

1066 is good. 78 is ok but the mash will work faster between 80-85 degrees. At under 75 it really starts to slow down as the yeast begin to go dormant.

I have a question on the action of "pitching" the yeast. I think I did it right, but I want to make sure. Once everything was added, mixed, dissolved, correct temp. etc...I poured everything into my bucket. I gave it another good stir then sprinkled the yeast on top of it and let it sit for 15 minutes. Is their a reason why you kind of lay it on top of the liquid rather than dumping it in and stirring it up?

Like victor, I prefer to rehydrate the yeast and wake them up with a little sugar to get things started. It will work either way though.

I've read on the parent site that the higher temp. at this point will give you some not so wanted things, mainly an unpleasant flavor.

Mainly when you get over 100 degrees I've found.

I've also read here in the forums that people use electric blankets, aquarium heaters and the like to keep everything nice & toasty. Which is right?

Both. Your choice.

Sorry for the ramblings of this lunatic mind, but I want to make sure this comes out well.

If that's the case, ask before, not after you build your mash.

tp

J_48_Johnson · Post by **J_48_Johnson** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:25 pm

This is day three of my first fermentation. The temp. of the carboy is at 76F and I'm getting 43 bubbles a minute through the air lock.

I never really got a big dogshead to speak of, I had one on day two, but it was only about an inch high. It's gone now. Everything seems to be just a working away! I can see the CO2 rising to the top and thins look really active inside.

Thanks for the posts guys. As far as waking the yeast up, I don't think I really need to do it. These little guys took off like crazy. After I had everything loaded into the bucket, I pitched my yeast by kind of laying it on top of the wash. Since it was dry, it wanted to float. I let it hang out there for fifteen minutes and just kind of be. (Maybe this is kind of letting them wake up?) After that, I stirred everything to get oxygen into the wash, and then poured it into the carboy and slapped the air lock on it. When I checked for CO2 the first time, I'm guessing that it was five, maybe seven minutes after loading everything into the carboy. That's when I checked it the first time and came out with a 5 bubbles per minute. Since the, everything seems to have kicked off, and for the last three days, the lowest number of bubbles per minute has been 43, which was about a half hour ago on day three.

The wash is lighter in color that I suspected, just about the color of cloudy white grape juice.

victor · Post by **victor** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:08 pm

[Thanks for the posts guys. As far as waking the yeast up, I don't think I really need to do it.]

It will work, but I would rather have a tall glass of water after being in a desert for a while, rather than a tall glass of syrup!! Ha!!

Groddi · Post by **Groddi** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:41 am

Going to try this one out next, thanks

patriotal · Post by **patriotal** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:08 pm

Ok Guys...This is my very first wash, to soon be, my sacrificial first run, of my newly built reflux still. I followed the recipe to the letter. However my SG was only 1.050. In only three hours, it was ripping! 24 hours and it had calmed down. and the SG was at 1.010.. Am I missing something? and can I increase the sugar at this stage to get a higher Alcohol potential? Thanks for helping a novice.

Hawkeye3 · Post by **Hawkeye3** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:36 am

Hello Patriotal. I have done just that a couple times with success. I just dissolved 2 lbs of sugar and 1/2 tsp of nutrients in a quart or so of warm water (not hot!) Then added to fermentor. It should fizz but that is to be expected. You don't want to get your sg up too high but starting with 1.050 and adding a couple more lbs of sugar will be fine. It's for your sacrificial run anyway so not that important but practice is always good.

J_48_Johnson · Post by **J_48_Johnson** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:43 pm

I have this posted over in the Novice Distillers forum section as well, a few people have looked at it, but so far no answers to my questions so I'm posting here.

Thanks for reading, and thank you everyone here for being so helpful with ideas, designs, and recipes.

I had something happen which I was not expecting with my two wash runs. Both were "Winoes Plain 'Ol Sugar Wash".

With the first one I followed the recipe to a tee. I measured everything out, added at the correct temperatures, waited the correct amount of time, the whole deal. Since this was my first wash, I didn't know what to expect, but it seemed to me like this thing was going great.

Two weeks later, I made my second ever wash. I had done some more reading on here and had Ph papers to try out this time, (I had them when I made the first wash, but I got excited and forgot to use one), so with them in hand, I had at it again. I did as before, measured, waited, cooled, both washes were made exactly the same. I checked the Ph on this one, and it came out at 3.4 which was a little low from what I had read. I added one tablespoon, scraped level, of calcium carbonate which is what the page on WPOSW calls for using. I didn't know how much to add, so I used 1 Tbs. After mixing it in really well, I checked the Ph again and it was 5.8. It may have been a bit high, but I wasn't going to mess with it further now, and would wait to see how the fermentation process worked out.

The results:

Wash #1

Apple cider in color, red/orange/brownish and wanting to be clear
slight taste of apple, dry
6 gallon glass carboy, kind of tall
Starting Ph not taken
Ending Ph 4.0
SG1.066
FG.966
9.417% ABV
75 degree average temperature
21 day fermentation with LOTS of Co2 being expelled.

Wash #2
Foggy lemonade looking
slight taste of apple, dry
6.5 gallon glass carboy, kind of fat and squat with more surface area than the 6 gallon carboy
Starting Ph 3.4, (corrected to 5.8 )
Ending Ph 4.0
SG1.068
FG.993
9.675% ABV
75 degree average temperature
7 day fermentation with hardly any Co2 being expelled.

I guess my questions would go here...

1) Could the short & fat carboy of the second wash with the increased surface area have anything to do with the second wash drying a full 14 days sooner?

2) Could the drying time difference of 14 days be attributed to the unknown starting Ph of the first wash and the known 5.8 Ph of the second wash have anything to do with the drying time?

3) What's the deal with the color? Should the calcium carbonate change it this much or would this have something to do with how long I cooked the sugar/water in relation to one batch compared to the other? ("Cooked" meaning dissolved the sugar in the water as it heated).

4) I'm not sure how to word this last one, but I would really like to know the answer...here goes.... My first wash put off an incredible amount of Co2 while the second one did very little. (Even though the less active one finished 14 days sooner AND had a higher ending % ABV). Both air locks are fitting into the same style / type of bung plug and fit very snugly. I don't believe I had any Co2 escaping around the bung plug as I believe it was all going through the air lock on each carboy. When the yeasties are happy, will they make more ethanol and less Co2 as compared to when they are stressed and end up making more Co2 and less ethanol?

If any of you are still awake, I'd sure like some input on these findings and on my questions. The thing that gets me of this whole process is the fermentation time difference of these two washes.

beardedbrewer · Post by **beardedbrewer** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:10 pm

Maybe the bucket lid was loose and let more co2 escape? How much and what kind of yeast did you use?

J_48_Johnson · Post by **J_48_Johnson** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:31 pm

I was using glass carboys with rubber stoppers/airlocks, and I used distillers yeast, (1/4 cup)

beardedbrewer · Post by **beardedbrewer** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:18 pm

Hmmm. I've been experimenting with actually boiling vs just using a 90degree water. But the jury us still out.

terrylgreenjr · Post by **terrylgreenjr** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:49 pm

what should the wash taste/smell like when ready to run. My sg is right on but the yeast smell is gone and there is a differnt smell present

J_48_Johnson · Post by **J_48_Johnson** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:10 pm

When done, mine have a green apple kind of smell to them. I'm not sure that's normal, but that's what I think of when I smell / taste it.

hanon · Post by **hanon** » Wed May 14, 2014 3:50 pm

This is probably the best of the sugar wash threads with all the info about pH and yeasts, but it doesn't look like Wineo's posted in a long time. I'm still trying to decide between this recipe or Rad's All Bran recipe for my first sugar wash and subsequent first distillation. If I choose this one, I'll let everyone know how it works.

MitchyBourbon · Post by **MitchyBourbon** » Wed May 14, 2014 11:47 pm

J_48_Johnson,

What makes you think that the fermenter that discharged less CO2 produced a higher abv? By the readings you give, they look almost the same. Can you tell me if the fermenters contain about the same size yeast cake or is one bigger than the other?

There are a lot of factors at play here so I will just describe a couple of ways that can cause low CO2 and quick dry ferment. Yeast don't convert sugars to alcohol without producing CO2 at the same time. And they don't start converting sugar into alcohol and CO2 until they have consumed all the oxygen. While there is oxygen present they convert the sugar into more of themselves.

So if you had two washes that were... Identical, and you aerate the heck out of batch one and don't bother with batch two. The first batch is gonna use all that oxygen and some of the sugar and produce a bunch more yeast. While this is going on there isn't going to be much CO2 produced. When the oxygen is depleted the yeast will go to work producing alcohol and CO2. But since there is more yeast and less sugar left it will take less time and give off less CO2. The other batch that wasn't aerated will not have much oxygen so the yeast will not reproduce. They will go directly to work converting sugar into alcohol and CO2. There will be fewer yeast to do the job and more sugar available so it will take longer and more CO2 will be discharged but over a longer period of time. In this scenario both batches finish to dry. Batch one was aerated, had more yeast to work with, finished fast and furiously, produced less CO2 and less alcohol. But since it was a shorter period it seemed like more.

beardedbrewer · Post by **beardedbrewer** » Thu May 15, 2014 2:02 pm

My last ferment of this took forever. But I didn't ad the recommended amount of yeast. Although I decided to distill at around 1.020 it produced a great product. I'm going to try again soon with more yeast to see if I can get it to ferment in a week or so instead of a month.

canvasback88 · Post by **canvasback88** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:17 pm

Just started my first wash ever. Used WPOSW directions. Have made some apparent errors. Used distilled water….didn't check my starting SG. Used approximately seven pounds of sugar in a five gallon mix. Also used distillers yeast labeled for Vodka production. My question concerns the amount of CO2 being released. My buno vino airlock is burping about once per minute…..seems very slow to me. Should I start over?

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