Some questions about column width and height

[Evan]

Googe- I was thinking of 30'' of 4'' above a 4'' bubble plate and below a dephlag. Edit: I see what you mean... Could I offset a single bubble cap and have the downcomer closer to center?

[googe]

I don't have much experience with packed columns, especially 2", all the others here know a lot more than me and say 2" is all that's needed. So, see what they reckon. But if that's what you want, then go for it, no better way to know than to build it . Off set cap would be fine. Also, from what I've read and heard, caps are slower than sieve plates.

[Evan]

Sieve plate sounds like a good way to go, probably easier to build.

[wv_cooker]

Googe- I was thinking of 30'' of 4'' above a 4'' bubble plate and below a dephlag. Edit: I see what you mean... Could I offset a single bubble cap and have the downcomer closer to center?

See here is my point why do you need a 4" bubble cap under a 4" column? Why not just a 36" tall column? A reflux condenser and a product condenser and you have an efficient CM that will make anything you want. Understand that I am not picking here, just trying to get the point across that it is more fun to understand what different stills are capable of and get folks to choose by what they really need to make what they want. Sorry I picked you but let's have some fun.

A 4" bubble cap under a 4" column will not give you enough vapor to do anything but make your column 4.5" taller depending on your numbers and theories. In PP's instance he has an 8" bubble ball with a 6" plate as I recall. He made his caps taller for a deeper liquid bed, now why would he do this? He was after efficiency and a faster product take off. So his reasoning was a thumper under a 2" column would give him enough higher abv vapor to put into the column that would slow the vapor speed to give him a faster take off, the higher ABV vapor would also allow for a shorter column because the column wouldn't have to work as hard to give him the purity he desired.

So now a 4" plate under a 2" column would be more efficient and a 6" even more. But a 36" packed cm will do the same thing maybe even better. Now which is it? How about a 30" tall by 3" diameter packed cm same take off rate and same purity no step ladder needed. But you only need 24" of 2" column on an 8" Bubble Thumper ask PP. Better yet read his thread. Now that's 3 stills to accomplish the same thing.

But wait a minute how about 36" tall by 3" VM, what is it you say, you can't run it as a pot and make whiskey very well. How about if you put a 3 way valve in the vapor path turn of the reflux condenser and direct the flow directly to the Product condenser viola its a pot pure and simple. Turn it back and you have the best neutral maker going. Or make a manu sliding condenser style like dad300 or jarheadshiner maybe put a real thumper under it like jarheadshiner.

Don't like any of those 5, how about some magic, a 4 plate modular plated column for making great whiskey, now take off 2 plates and add a 24" packed column on top before the deph and hit azeotrope at 2.5 liters or better per hour. Learn the theories, read some of the great threads that are everywhere on this great forum then apply your imagination and tell me what you want.

Let's all start having some of the great discussions we used to have here and stop with the following, for the lack of better words, The BS threads and copying things because they are cool. And yes Fu Man is cool but more for what he is capable of as well as the mustache.

@ Evan sorry for picking your thread to make this point but I seriously hope I have given enough info for you to see that you don't have to have a stepladder to run a still. And I hope every new guy coming in to the hobby can see that there are many ways to achieve the same goals. please feel free to continue your questions and we will see if we can help! Hope this helps!

[wv_cooker]

Sieve plate sounds like a good way to go, probably easier to build.

A perf or sieve plate can be used but a bubble cap is probably better for a thumper type environment. You can easily have much deeper liquid beds and hold more product in your thumper without returning it to the boiler and wasting energy. Read LWTCS Humper thumper thread great info on thumpers there.

[googe]

A flap plate would work good in a inline thump to . You need to dig up your thread about different stills cooker .

[Evan]

wv_cooker: If you keep feeling the need to apologize it might mean you're being an asshole. I read everything on here, but I have long hiatuses where I'm too busy to indulge my hobby. I built my first pot when I was ten years younger and a nixon stone a few years after that. I also built a boka that I never use anymore. I'm not big on pontificating; I just like to read. My contributions to this forum are next to none, but I didn't just stumble into distilling last week. I jumped on the idea of adding a single plated section under a column at PP's suggestion earlier in this thread. I started a thread under column builds over a year ago asking about a single bubble plate beneath a column and got little response. I guess I should have started this thread with: "Hi, I'm a dumbass noob who wants some free info before I drop a couple hundred bucks at the plumbing supply"

[wv_cooker]

Well I some how knew this would happen. I can see you have been a member since 2010. As I said was not meaning to make you mad point out any kind of disrespect was just trying to make a point to new folks coming through and add some information to types of stills. My apologies and I will back out, see ya around.

[googe]

No need to apologize cooker, I to thought evan was newish with the OP, till I looked at the join date. Keep up them posts of yours, there always informative, and I learn something every time you do! .

[White_Lightning_Rod]

+1 to what Googe said. Some great duscussion going on here very informative.

[Evan]

My apologies Cooker, I've been shooting from the hip all day. I've read in several places that 1 or 2 plates beneath a short column will out-perform a taller column without the plate. My main goal with the next build is to build something with a low profile and a high take-off, but not a flute. A multi-plated still with sight glasses would be awesome but I think the time and expense put into those is only worth it if you're chasing whiskey or rum. I am not. I want super clean neutral in 3 runs or less, including the strip. Any suggestions? I promise not to take it personally this time:)

[Hound Dog]

Hmmmm. Well for what its worth WV, I don't think you came off as an asshole. I think I picked up on something in this little discussion. I made a bubble tray to go in the 6" head space that is under my 3" column. Perhaps when I get time and the build bug I will look into making a deeper tray that will hold more liquid and see if it improves my results. I did not realize that having a deeper liquid level might be better when I built it. Could be fun!

[Hound Dog]

My apologies Cooker, I've been shooting from the hip all day. I've read in several places that 1 or 2 plates beneath a short column will out-perform a taller column without the plate. My main goal with the next build is to build something with a low profile and a high take-off, but not a flute. A multi-plated still with sight glasses would be awesome but I think the time and expense put into those is only worth it if you're chasing whiskey or rum. I am not. I want super clean neutral in 3 runs or less, including the strip. Any suggestions? I promise not to take it personally this time:)

My 3" boka with a 6" bubble plate under it will give you a super clean neutral in one pass on low wines that I strip with a pot still. Only problem with it is that you are back on that step ladder that was trying to be avoided to begin with!

[Evan]

Hound Dog, how tall?

[Hound Dog]

A little over 10'. Found an old post I did of it. It's not pretty but functional.....
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=46179

I have since found that smaller lava rock works better. All a little smaller than dime size creates a nice packing that gives good results.

[Evan]

Holy cow! Yeah I have the same situation. I even switched to a water heater element to eliminate the burner height.
You can buy lava rock here at greeneries by the cubic foot. I use a tree nut scoop as a sieve to get the small pieces. You're right about smaller pieces; marble size or smaller.

[wv_cooker]

No problem Evan, I really meant nothing with my posts other than putting info out there. AS for neutral I have 2 trains of thought. It starts with the wash the less you put in the less you have to take out, so I use birdwatchers usually.

The second thing is re-distillations, we know it takes 15 to reach azeotrope and 40 to reach as pure a product as you can make. So the deal is where does our taste buds become happy with the product we make. I know mine is at around the 9 or 10 re-distillations mark so I can get by with about any good reflux rig at 95% and be happy.

I am currently finishing up a 3" cm 36" tall packed with Lava Rock to play with a bit. But if you want more purity maybe go 40" and you can go 4" for more take off speed. None of the science types have ever calculated and posted the actual HETP numbers of Lava Rock but a good guess is about 2" per theoretical plate just slightly more than SPP. So with 36" we should be at around 18 re-distillations which will give you azeotrope plus a bit more purity. With SPP you would have around 19 or 20.

At 95% alcohol is almost medicinal to me so I am sure I will be extremely happy with the purity at 18 re-distillations. The 3 in. should give me about the same 2.5 liters per hour as PP's rig. I would someday like to do an 8 inch bubble ball thumper with 24" of packed section on top, still about 36" tall and extremely fast take off rates.

One more thing we have to remember when we want to make clean neutral is less power equal less smearing and happier alcohol. In other words even though the rig is capable of knocking out 3 or more liters per hour run it slower to assure less or no smearing and the end product will be much cleaner. It's not a race. Hope this helps.

[Evan]

In your opinion very little is gained by putting a plate directly above the boiler and beneath a column? Or, is a single plate more effective below a narrower column? I only ask because this seems to be a sticking point. There are some who say that a single plate or two below a column runs like magic and those who say there is no perceptible difference. I'm not lazy, just a perfectionist. I don't want to waste a lot of time making something look pretty if runs like a lemon.

[wv_cooker]

no a plate under a column is essentially a thumper and yes very efficient. Not saying I don't like them just other ways as well. but if you just put a 4" plate under a 4" column you have effectively just added another plate under the column. a larger plate with a deeper liquid bed on a smaller diameter column would be much more efficient. I personally think PP's Fu man is one of my favorite builds of all time. I have probably linked folks to it more than any other build. My problem with 4" on a bubble thumper is the ball would be maybe 12" or better and the sheer volumn of vapor would be like having an 8" column and suck a keg boiler dry.

edit: Like all things there is a balance.

[Evan]

Perfect. Thank you. I have plenty of 2'' and 3'', no need to buy a length 4''. I appreciate your patience, and I apologize again for being rude earlier.

[wv_cooker]

Perfect. Thank you. I have plenty of 2'' and 3'', no need to buy a length 4''. I appreciate your patience, and I apologize again for being rude earlier.

No problem. Glad to help.

[Hound Dog]

WV, what size are you using for the lava rock in your 3 x 36 column?

[BigSwede]

Again, great thread and thought-provoking. WV, I appreciate your thoughts on this topic.

I'm leaning strongly towards a bubble plate below my copper 2" packed column. I don't know what it will be packed with yet, but at least to start, I'm thinking stainless scrubbies for 80% of the column, topped with copper. I'd like to start with a "standard" packing and then experiment with others, lava or SPP.

My plan for now - I've got a 3" opening on my boiler. I'm going to go 3" to 4" stainless short adapter, a 4" bubble plate w/sight glass, a SS 4" to 2" bowl reducer, and finally the column, so it'll be all stainless below the column. Unless I can find a copper sphere like PP.

I read in "flute talk" about issues with the lowest plate or sieve not doing much, so if possible, I'd like to engineer this assembly to provide for a relatively deep pool. In fact, I'm thinking a longer 3" (boiler) to 4" (plate) adapter would be better... even a few inches might provide for a cleaner vapor hitting the bubble plate, rather than steam or spatter from the boiler.

If I can keep the overall height from boiler to top at 42" or less, I'd be happy.

[googe]

Plate numbers will affect how the first plate behaves, many plates = fractions spread over a wider area, meaning the bottom plate on a 5 Plater will be not so full and have a fast vapor speed through it. A column with 3 plates will have be more "full" of distillate, meaning the bottom plate will be deeper and less active= slower takeoff, more flavor. if you can get the right amount of action in what ever set up and carry that through a good packing, your laughing.

[wv_cooker]

WV, what size are you using for the lava rock in your 3 x 36 column?

They just need to be small enough to fill the space well Hound Dog, channeling becomes an issue if they are too big. Nickel and Dime size seems to be best.

[wv_cooker]

For those looking for Balls here is a decent supplier though some of the pricing is a little high. Maybe you have a metal spinner close by they are good suppliers as well.

[culvercreek]

WV, what size are you using for the lava rock in your 3 x 36 column?

They just need to be small enough to fill the space well Hound Dog, channeling becomes an issue if they are too big. Nickel and Dime size seems to be best.

What are you using on the bottom of the column for containment on the lava rocks?

[wv_cooker]

WV, what size are you using for the lava rock in your 3 x 36 column?

They just need to be small enough to fill the space well Hound Dog, channeling becomes an issue if they are too big. Nickel and Dime size seems to be best.

What are you using on the bottom of the column for containment on the lava rocks?

I use a plate with holes drilled in it welded to my tube inside but there are many ways copper packing in the bottom will hold it, there are also screens and different ways.

[Hound Dog]

WV, what size are you using for the lava rock in your 3 x 36 column?

They just need to be small enough to fill the space well Hound Dog, channeling becomes an issue if they are too big. Nickel and Dime size seems to be best.

What are you using on the bottom of the column for containment on the lava rocks?

I have three rods across the bottom of mine that are drilled through and soldered in place. I put a few larger lava rocks in the bottom and then fill up in smaller dime size pieces as WV and Evan elude too.

[BigSwede]

For those looking for Balls here is a decent supplier though some of the pricing is a little high. Maybe you have a metal spinner close by they are good suppliers as well.

WV, not seeing the link. Can you repost it? Thanks.