Newbie Single Malt Question

[Ajax99]

Made an attempt at Jimbo’s single malt recipe today. Cracked 20 lbs of Rahr Red Wheat Malt and combined with 10 gallons of water at a strike temp of 156. Checked the mash temp after 5 minutes and it was right at the target 148 degrees. Didn’t take a iodine conversion test at this point put did after about 2.5 hours and the iodine showed no color change at all which should have indicated complete conversion. I just pulled off a sample to check the SG while the mash is cooling to yeast pitching temperature and the hydrometer reading is 1.020 or basically no sugar present!?!

I’ve obviously done something completely wrong. Is the Rahr Red Wheat Malt not actually malted?

Any idea as to where I took a wrong turn?

[White_Lightning_Rod]

The Rahr should be good. I used it in conjuction with the red wheat I malted myself and it worked great. Did you adjust your SG reading for temp? I would recommend actually pulling a sample and cooling it in a ice bath till it gets to the temp your hydro is calibrated to.

[Ajax99]

Yeah, the sample in my hydrometer test jar is at room temp which is pretty close to the calibration temp. Scratching my head. If I didn't get conversion, the iodine test would have been showing ink.

[woodshed]

PH? What's your water like?

[Ajax99]

Right at 7.0 woodshed.

[woodshed]

I would bring that to 5.2 or so for the malt. Backset or citric acid will do that.

[cornsqueezer]

Taste your mash if it is sweet it could be your hydrometer

[Ajax99]

Only a tiny hint of residual sweetness. Looks like the hydrometer was telling the truth. Maybe the Iodine was lying. I'm using Iodine Tincture USP (2%) which should work. Not a bit of color change when I mixed in a drop with a mash sample after several hours of mashing.

Guess I'll run a small test batch today - 2 lbs of wheat and a gallon of water with more thorough testing at each step and see if I can identify the problem.

[Ajax99]

Just ran an iodine test on a small sample of crushed grain mixed with some warm water. Instant ink. Looks like the iodine was not lying either. Tried another iodine test on yesterday's mash - no color change. Took another hydrometer reading on yesterday's mash and got a reading of 1.030. A bit higher than last night's reading (suspended solids?) but nowhere close to the expected target of 1.060.

[cornsqueezer]

if your mash that you tested wasn't clear enough it will give you a false reading. you may try to filter some of your mash and retest it

[Ajax99]

Well, at least I’m consistent. SG of 1.035 on this test try which is close to where I was yesterday. 2 lbs of grain and 1 gallon of water. Strike temp of 156 with a target mash temp of 148. Iodine test was black immediately after doughing in. Gave it a stir at 25 minutes. Temp had dropped to 141 which is lower than I would have expected probably because I was using a small stainless stock pot (didn’t preheat the pot and it sucked up some of the heat) this time instead of my 20 gallon Brute trash can. Iodine test was light grey. Temp was 130 after 1.5 hours and the Iodine test showed no color change. Unwrapped the blankets at 2 hours and took a hydrometer sample. Iodine again showed no color change.

The only thing I can think of is that the temp may have dropped too quickly in both attempts for full enzyme activation but the Iodine tests indicated no starch present at the end of the mashing period. I checked the calibration of the alcohol thermometer I am using with boiling water and the thermometer is +1 degree off (one degree hotter than actual). So my strike temp could have been off by a degree.

Did not have any backset as suggested by Woodshed but I think Jimbo mentioned in his original post that backset was optional as the malt lowers the ph sufficiently.

I’m all out of ideas. Any suggestions or technique pointers would be appreciated.

Thanks

[frunobulax]

How well did you crush the grain? If it wasn't crushed enough, you won't get a good conversion.

[Ajax99]

Frunobulax - Thanks for the comment. Don't think the grain crush was an issue. Crushed it myself with my hand crank grain mill. All grains cracked - most to a small grannular level.

PItched the yeast anyway Saturday night since I had already activated it during the mashing so it's now chewing away at the small amount of converted sugar. Will attempt to save the effort tonight by turning the ferment into a sugar head.

Will try one more 2 lb test mash later this week using a small round igloo cooler to maintain the temperature more effectively during the mash to confirm if the temp loss in my fermentation bucket was the issue.

[Jimbo]

wheat malt is high DP, it will convert in 30 minutes in the 140'S. your temps are fine. pH is rarely if ever an issue in all malt recipes. 2lbs/gallon is fine. Im guessing you got fine conversion and just a bad read on the hydro. Your reading almost doubled from one reading to the next. 20 lbs in 10 gal will give you 1.055 all day.

[frunobulax]

You could even do a test mash with 1 Gallon of water and 1 pound of material in a small pot, then put it in the oven on low. Wheat should give ya an OG of around 1.040 at that ratio.

[zaph1]

I'm still leaqrning, but I've learned that the SG readings are rarely accurate. Too much dissolved solids in the mash. Pitch some yeast and see if it bubbles. That will tell you if it worked on not.

[Jimbo]

You could even do a test mash with 1 Gallon of water and 1 pound of material in a small pot, then put it in the oven on low. Wheat should give ya an OG of around 1.040 at that ratio.

No, you will never get 1.040 from 1 lbs of wheat malt in 1 gallon. Even at 100% conversion youd get maybe 1.037 but thats impossible. If you got 1.030 you did great. 1.027 ish would be typical beer guys yield (brewhouse eficiency).

[frunobulax]

Yeah, 1.040 is the potential at 100% conversion for 1lb to 1 gallon. (according to beersmiths yield) But ya can get really close in a small test batch.

[Jimbo]

Id pay to see that. Max yield is 37 ppg, 85% conversion (excellent) is 31 ppg.

http://homedistiller.org/grain/yield/typical" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow.

I been brewing and distillin for 20 years. Never got close to 40 points out of anything.

The only reason Im harping on this, is the new folk will read that and think they failed, when they got great conversion.

[Ajax99]

I am befuddled. The 1.030 and 1.035 hydro readings were taken from two different mashes (original and test mash) with room temperature samples that had sat in the test jars long enough for all of the particulate to settle out to the bottom of the cylinder. I've never checked my hydrometer but it can't be off more than a couple of points in a worst case scenario. How can my readings be that far off from an expected 1.060 reading with 2lbs/gallon mash ratio?

Should I just accept insanity and let it ferment out?

[Jimbo]

haha, I dont know about the insanity bit, but sure, always let it ferment out.

Is there anything odd about your water? Youre not using RO water or distilled water are you, or the other extreme, super hard with heaps of iron? Enzymes and yeasties need a 'natural' environment, that means a nice water with a good balance of minerals.

[Ajax99]

Nope. Good old Lake Michigan water straight from the tap. The water shouldn't have impacted the mash. It's been lubricating a UJSM run for over a month without an issue. I've been getting a good crack with my hand grinder. Is there any reason the starch is staying bound up and not converting? Wouldn't the Iodine test tell the story if that was the case? I'd hate to spend an afternoon stripping this if the ABV is down in the 2% zone.

[Jimbo]

man this is a red-hot mystery. When you mashed in did you stir well and was in the 140 s for at least one hour? is there a lot of chlorine in your water? Can't imagine why that would impact proteins which is what enzymes are but who knows I'm grasping here

[frunobulax]

Maybe a improperly malted bag of grain? Unlikely, But ya never know.

[White_Lightning_Rod]

Maybe a improperly malted bag of grain? Unlikely, But ya never know.

If this were the case with the DP of red wheat malt being as high as it is more than 2/3 of the bag would have had to been improperly malted, and the Iodine test would have shown starch as well.

[Ajax99]

Got home from work a while ago.

Checked the digital scale I use with a 1 lb test weight. Spot on.
Checked my hydrometer with some distilled water. Less than a point off.
Reweighted a full charge of the measuring cup scoop I was using to measure out the grain - spot on again.
Having said that I checked my fermentation bucket and it is currently boiling away so there is some sugary goodness in there.
No more hairs I can think of for Occam's Razor.

Very frustrating though not being able to identify the problem.
I also build acoustic guitars as a hobby and I like a good dose of precision and measurability mixed in with my art.

Thanks for all the input.

[corene1]

I have been following this thread and Jimbo is one of the best at All Grain. I was thinking about something my friend at the brew house told me though and thought I would share. He said that once a malted grain has been crushed it starts to lose some of it's conversion power as time goes on so could your low numbers be caused from a malted grain that has been stored crushed for too long. He told me that after a couple of weeks a lower conversion will start to show. Can't say it for a fact but I have had some inconsistencies with older grains . I also would mention. Did you agitate the mash regularly? It seems to help mine if I stir vigorously every 15 minuets or so. Just a thought.

[Ajax99]

Corene - thanks for the input and I agree with you regarding Jimbo - really enjoy following his posts and recipes and his willingness (as well as you and many others here) to take the time to share your knowledge is one of the reasons this forum is such a great resource. I had also read somewhere that cracked malt can go "stale" over time so I made sure I purchased whole grain. My grain sack was packed on 5-20-14 and I milled the grain about an hour before I mashed it. That's pretty fresh I'm thinking. Also thinking I may not have stirred the mash enough (probably once or twice an hour) thinking that opening the pot would let too much heat escape. I'm going to make one more 2 lb test mash later this week in a cooler and stir the bejesus out of it and see how I fair. Thank you all for the input.

[SoMo]

Sounds like a Malt issue to me I'm no expert, that said I've not had a bad conversion either knock on wood. The malt is the unchanged variable in our mystery it sounds, buy a few different kinds a few pounds and use them to test against. My .02$

[Ajax99]

Update.

Hadn’t gotten back to this for a while as I wanted to finish running a few more UJSM ferments in order to have a decent stock set up for aging. Ending up running eight 5 gal and two 10 gallon ferments and still have 6 gallons of low wines awaiting a spirit run.

Anyway, when I last left this I was fairly convinced I had a malt problem rather than a technique issue based on my backchecks so I decided to treat the red wheat as an unmalted grain. Ground 17 lbs of red wheat and let it soak at 185 degrees for 3 hours. Dropped the temp down to 152 degrees with my new wort chiller (first time using one of these – really like it) and then stirred in 5 lbs of 6 row which should generate DP of around 36. Let the enzymes work the starch for about an hour and a half and checked the SG and it was at 1.055. Bam. Just pitched some US-05 and should be off to the races.

Might try some SEBStar on the next round and compare the results.