First Sac Run

[logic]

I completed my sac run a couple of days ago and have been meaning to get on here to share my experience and observations and also get some feedback on some things. I fully intend to take detailed notes of my regular runs, but I was not doing this on the sac run. I have an 8 gallon milk can boiler with a 1500 watt immersion heating element with a pot still head that can be seen in the pictures I posted in the welcome thread if you are interested. My immersion heater has a dial control labeled 1 thru 10. I have a 1/4 hp pump attached to my liebig condenser. The pump sits in a cooler filled with a couple of inches of water and I'll dump a bag of ice in periodically as the temperature rises during the run. I ended up going through four 10 lb bags of ice during the run. (Is there a cheaper way to cool? If 4 bags is standard, it will cost me $8 per run.)

I started the run by plugging in the heating element and turning it all the way up to 10. It took about an hour and 20 minutes to get the approximately 5.5 gallons of wash to start dribbling out alcohol on the other end. I bought 6 liters of cheap wine at the grocery store originally which came to about $20. I decided to not buy any more cheap wine, as even though it was cheap it was still a waste of a lot of money. I was going to buy four more 3 L jugs, but ended up doing a sugar/corn mash instead and fermented it for 4 days. My wash consisted of the combo of 6 liters of cheap wine and the rest was the result of that ferment. What was coming out the other end of the still had a mixture of a tart/sour smell from the wine and a sweet smell from the corn/sugar.

I pulled the distillate off at 250 ml intervals and measured the alcohol content with my hydrometer. The first 250 ml came out at 110 proof and every 250 ml increment after would come out at 5 to 10 proof less. At the end, it was still coming off at 25 to 30 proof. I had been working the run for several hours before I decided to end it, being satisfied that I'd run enough through. I collected about 4 liters of distillate.

I have a thermometer at the top of the pot still. The temperature never reached 212 like it did when I just ran water or water/vinegar through it. I'm assuming I could probably do a calculation based on whatever the temperature reading is and determine what the alcohol content of the vapor is as the temperature was lowest at the beginning of the run and steadily grew throughout just as the alcohol content was highest at the beginning of the run and steadily declined throughout. Outside of that, the thermometer on the pot still is useless as has been previously mentioned in many threads I've read here and I can measure alcohol content with the hydrometer.

I noticed when I held the distillate up in a glass collection jar and the light hit it just right that I would see little splotches of some kind of oil on the surface of the distillate. These were very few in the first few collection jars and as the run went on, I started seeing more and more splotches of oil coagulating on the surface. Anyone have any insight on what this oil is? Or whatever it was if not some kind of oil?

Also, I'm either not sure how to or not sure I can, with an electric immersion heater, run the wash any slower than full speed. I tried scaling back the temperature once distillate started coming out the other end. I could scale the temperature gauge down from 10 to about 6 1/4 and the power light would stay on and distillate would continue to come out the other end. If I were to go any lower, the power light would turn off and distillate would stop flowing. The speed at which it was coming off the still was the same at 10 and at 6 1/4. Is this just a limitation of electric vs. open flame or am I misunderstanding the suggestion of running the still as slow as possible during actual runs?

Anyway, that is a good representation of my experience. Feel free to comment or ask any questions on something that I might not have been clear on. If anyone could tell me what those oils I noticed are, I'd appreciate it.

logic

[HDNB]

sounds like a resounding success!

couple things: the ice is overkill. you can just use water, as long as there is no vapour escape you are fine. this is the reason i suggested valving the input water...you can choke the water down to warm your product condenser a bit, the result is a warmer distillate that off gasses a bit faster (think distressed or speed-ed up airing process) and reduces the amount of heat transfer to your "holding" tank of coolant, so you don't have to change out the cooling water so often.

the fusel oils are normal, and a good indicator of where "tails" start, different washes will have different amounts of this. you can remove them with a bit of paper towel or a coffee filter (unbleached -see thread - haha) you will find a lot of flavour in these oils, and if they stay with the stripper and are re-run in a spirit run there will be less oils come through in the first parts of the run and indicate the tails when they do come...possibly with better tastes in the hearts... but that is an experiment for later...


your abv's sound normal, you are right about the thermometer, it's nothing more than an interesting accessory. time is relative to the wash, still, stiller and ambient air temps. on mine i run strips as fast as possible. on 1.5 and spirit runs i aim for 3L per hour at 1500W full out and the size of your tower i'd guess yours will be about the same. on strips and spirit runs.

[still_stirrin]

Congrats on your 1st run (sac run). It sounds like the run went pretty much normal. A pot still used in stripping, like you did for the sacrificial, is best run as fast as possible, ie-wide open, like you did. And your observations about the temps were correct.

Without knowing the make and model of your heating element, its hard to assess it's performance especially when turned down. When you speak of the "light" do you mean the heater element has an internal thermostat? If so, that function is hindering your operation. The heating element should only control the heat input (BTUs/hr or kW) to the boiler. A thermostat would try to regulate temperatures, and turn on and off accordingly. This is not what you want, or need.

The sheen that you've observed likely is the tails sneaking into your cuts. Its some of the oils (fusels) that come from the ferment. The quality of your ferment can help to minimize those. Also, careful attention to the cuts may help to reduce them as well. Some on the site have simply used a paper towel to blot them off the top of your product.

So, all in all, you've done well with the run and gained experience in the process. Now get that 1st keeper into the fermenter and begin the next step...aging and enjoying your own creation.

Cheers.

[logic]

sounds like a resounding success!

couple things: the ice is overkill. you can just use water, as long as there is no vapour escape you are fine. this is the reason i suggested valving the input water...you can choke the water down to warm your product condenser a bit, the result is a warmer distillate that off gasses a bit faster (think distressed or speed-ed up airing process) and reduces the amount of heat transfer to your "holding" tank of coolant, so you don't have to change out the cooling water so often.

the fusel oils are normal, and a good indicator of where "tails" start, different washes will have different amounts of this. you can remove them with a bit of paper towel or a coffee filter (unbleached -see thread - haha) you will find a lot of flavour in these oils, and if they stay with the stripper and are re-run in a spirit run there will be less oils come through in the first parts of the run and indicate the tails when they do come...possibly with better tastes in the hearts... but that is an experiment for later...


your abv's sound normal, you are right about the thermometer, it's nothing more than an interesting accessory. time is relative to the wash, still, stiller and ambient air temps. on mine i run strips as fast as possible. on 1.5 and spirit runs i aim for 3L per hour at 1500W full out and the size of your tower i'd guess yours will be about the same. on strips and spirit runs.

Thank you. Regarding the ice and cooling apparatus I have, I used no ice during my vinegar run and the cooling water got so hot that my pump eventually overheated and stopped working. I did change the water during my sac run once. I guess I just thought that at the rate the water warms up I'd be changing water quite frequently. Should I turn off the heat while I'm changing the water so the run stops temporarily or do you have it set up where you have several buckets of water on standby and an empty one to collect the hot water as you pour in semi-cold water?

Also, I know it's recommended to keep your sac run distillate for future cleanings, but I'm very tempted to just discard it as I don't see me using it again unless someone has a compelling reason for me to keep it or use it in some other way. The law says if you are caught with more than a gallon of illegally manufactured alcohol then it's a felony, any less is just a misdemeanor. I'd like to keep what I have on-hand below a gallon at all times if at all possible. The endgame for me is to eventually do this legally, so I'm only doing this for the experience and to avoid going into business "blind". I plan to perfect a recipe or two and get the little bit I'm currently producing out of the house (will not be selling it). This sac run distillate is counting against that volume at the moment.

On a side note, I got my first real run ferment going as of last night. I'll provide more details once it's done and been run through the still.

[logic]

Congrats on your 1st run (sac run). It sounds like the run went pretty much normal. A pot still used in stripping, like you did for the sacrificial, is best run as fast as possible, ie-wide open, like you did. And your observations about the temps were correct.

Without knowing the make and model of your heating element, its hard to assess it's performance especially when turned down. When you speak of the "light" do you mean the heater element has an internal thermostat? If so, that function is hindering your operation. The heating element should only control the heat input (BTUs/hr or kW) to the boiler. A thermostat would try to regulate temperatures, and turn on and off accordingly. This is not what you want, or need.

The sheen that you've observed likely is the tails sneaking into your cuts. Its some of the oils (fusels) that come from the ferment. The quality of your ferment can help to minimize those. Also, careful attention to the cuts may help to reduce them as well. Some on the site have simply used a paper towel to blot them off the top of your product.

So, all in all, you've done well with the run and gained experience in the process. Now get that 1st keeper into the fermenter and begin the next step...aging and enjoying your own creation.

Cheers.

I guess mine does have a thermostat. Would you mind elaborating on how it's hindering things and whether it's worth doing anything at this point to correct? Mine is just like this one:

http://www.milehidistilling.com/heater- ... 500w-115v/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[still_stirrin]

Because the heating element cycles on and off at the thermostat set temperature.

What you want is to regulate the heat input, that is - with a resistive element (like they all are) you adjust the current flow by regulating the voltage or with a phase angle controller.

Read in the electrical controls thread (there's many great explanations there).

I find it hard to believe that MHD misleads customers with that element. If it were variac controlled, instead of thermostatically controlled, it would be acceptable. Otherwise, that controller would be acceptable for your HERMS brewing system, where you want to control the temperature (not the heat input like on your still).

Again, read through the threads in the electric accessories forum so you better understand the mechanics (electronics) and the processes relationship.

[HDNB]

i have a 30 gal. garbage can full of water. doing a 9 gallon wash i have to change out 8 gallons twice. i use a 1500w heater, so it would be proportionally the same for you. i just change the water... if you shut off the heat it does the same thing as a thermostat does...the switching on/off can result in smearing. perhaps no a big deal now, but in a few months as you fine tune stuff it will matter to you more.
i would suggest a thread in "firsts" called "liebig" and some electricity reading in "related electic stuff" you can learn about SSR's and PID's and tstats and watts=voltsxamps and how to control all these things. if you are goin pro, you will need to know it all anyway.
oh yeah: and "basic cuts for new distillers."
+1 still stirrin (posting same time)

[still_stirrin]

I apologize if my explaination is not descriptive enough to understand. I'm a design engineer and electric and mechanical systems are intrinsic to me, as I've studied them and worked with them for many years. But lets see if I can shed more light on the process in layman's terms.

The thermostat turns on (full on) in an attempt to bring the liquid to the thermo's set temperature. All works great. As the liquid temp approaches the set temperature, the thermostat starts to turn off & on, gradually bringing the liquid to the set temperature. At the set temperature the thermostat turns off completely, hence NO heat input. The heater thinks it has done it's job.

Now, the fluid you're heating is a mixture of water and alcohols. The boiling point of the mixture changes through the process as the alcohols boil off before the water. Lighter alcohols will boil well before the water. But the mixture is not a constant, as the alcohols deplete. As a result, the temperature of the distillation is a curve, not a single point.

So, when you turn the thermostatically-controlled element down (upon initial heat up to boiling) you're actually telling the heater to lower the temperature, not regulate the kW input. It will thereby stay OFF more and the alcohol boil will stop (or slow to a painstakingly slow drip, if at all).

Rather, you want the temperature to go up, as it naturally will while the alcohols are boiling and depleting in the liquid mixture. But as you reduce the kW (power input/amperage through a resistive element), the rate of boiling is controllable.

This is very long-winded, and to all that understand the mechanics, I apologize. But to many who don't understand the "why and what is happening", I hope this helps a little.

Again, the MHD element likely is inappropriately marketed. It is a great element, just not well suited for powering a still.

Class dismissed.

[logic]

I apologize if my explaination is not descriptive enough to understand. I'm a design engineer and electric and mechanical systems are intrinsic to me, as I've studied them and worked with them for many years. But lets see if I can shed more light on the process in layman's terms.

The thermostat turns on (full on) in an attempt to bring the liquid to the thermo's set temperature. All works great. As the liquid temp approaches the set temperature, the thermostat starts to turn off & on, gradually bringing the liquid to the set temperature. At the set temperature the thermostat turns off completely, hence NO heat input. The heater thinks it has done it's job.

Now, the fluid you're heating is a mixture of water and alcohols. The boiling point of the mixture changes through the process as the alcohols boil off before the water. Lighter alcohols will boil well before the water. But the mixture is not a constant, as the alcohols deplete. As a result, the temperature of the distillation is a curve, not a single point.

So, when you turn the thermostatically-controlled element down (upon initial heat up to boiling) you're actually telling the heater to lower the temperature, not regulate the kW input. It will thereby stay OFF more and the alcohol boil will stop (or slow to a painstakingly slow drip, if at all).

Rather, you want the temperature to go up, as it naturally will while the alcohols are boiling and depleting in the liquid mixture. But as you reduce the kW (power input/amperage through a resistive element), the rate of boiling is controllable.

This is very long-winded, and to all that understand the mechanics, I apologize. But to many who don't understand the "why and what is happening", I hope this helps a little.

Again, the MHD element likely is inappropriately marketed. It is a great element, just not well suited for powering a still.

Class dismissed.

So, if I understand correctly, it's the problem I noticed and mentioned above about not being able to run at a slower speed. The thermostat either has the element on full blast to get to the set temp or the element goes off. There is no in between. Right?

If that's the case, can I modify this element somehow? I think the element does disassemble from the thermostat.

[HDNB]

if you can get into it you can hardwire the element and use an external controller. you probably want 3x headroom for longevity (1500w x3= 4500W controller) or just buy the 10000w controller now and you will be ready to upgrade to a bigger element in the future.
see "jimbo's electric conversion"


*leave the ground connection... or better, add a (2nd) external ground if rewiring

[still_stirrin]

So, if I understand correctly, it's the problem I noticed and mentioned above about not being able to run at a slower speed. The thermostat either has the element on full blast to get to the set temp or the element goes off. There is no in between. Right?

Yup.

On or off. Remember that gives full or no power. Regulating the voltage (as with a variac), would vary the current through the resistance and the power (P=VI) is adjusted. The thermostat won't do that.

If that's the case, can I modify this element somehow? I think the element does disassemble from the thermostat.

Here's a link to an early thread which talks about modifying a hotplate to eliminate the thermostat. I don't know what the insides of the MHD heater looks like, but its probably somewhat similar components-wise.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... t#p7142574

Scroll down to the graphic by John Barleycorn. I hope it helps.

Now, this modification will set the power through the heater to "full on". But that's better than having it turn off by itself via thermostat. You can still regulate the power through the element with a separate power controller. Again, there's many desigh threads on the site for that. Inquiring minds want to know....

[still_stirrin]

Hey,

I just found this thread:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... t#p7195215

Maybe all your answers are in it. Although all I & HDNB have added support this same data. (thanks HDNB)

[logic]

Thanks for the quick links.

I vaguely remember reading about thermostats and avoiding them with electric heating elements a while back. I guess it didn't sink in enough when I went shopping for one though. There are two pins in mine which hold the thermo to the element. I'm not real confident about taking this thing apart so I may just shop for a new one with an external controller.

You're right about Mile Hi. Considering who their customer base is, the best thing for them to do would be to not sell this particular item or at least have a little blurb in the description about the disadvantages of a thermostat. Buyer beware I guess.