Gelatinization Temps for Unmalted Grains

[MichiganCornhusker]

Should I just expect to cook the heck out of any un-malted grains I use in a recipe? I've always read that many grains gelatinize at mash temps so not to worry, just throw them in and mash away. I mash at between 145 and 150, and usually let it go for hours because I'm not in a hurry and want to give it plenty of time for conversion.
But, recently I did a batch with mostly unmalted wheat, and not only did I get a crappy yield, but I also scorched the stripping run for my first time.
Recipe was about 25% malted barley, 25% malted rye, and 50% unmalted wheat. I think it should have had plenty of DP.
Unfortunately, I don't remember if I checked the mash for complete conversion on that batch. Really wish I would have done an iodine test...
According to a chart on temps, even CORN will gelatinize at mash temps.
Should I just cook everything I use that is unmalted? Oats? Wheat? Barley? Does it hurt anything unmalted if I cook it first? I don't think I trust what I've always read anymore...
I'm going to experiment with another wheat batch soon, and will cook the grains first to see if that helps. Just wondered what y'all do with grains.

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

I haven't done any AG yet, but from what I've read, it seems quite a few are fond of heating up water to almost boiling then dumping the unmalted grains in. Let sit, stirring every 15mins till it cools to the right temp for your malt

[rtalbigr]

In my experience, corn is the only one ya really gotta cook. I haven't used unmalted wheat, but I have barley and oats, and both do fine at mashing temps. But if I'm doing a bourbon and have any other unmalted grains I go ahead and cook them with the corn.

Big R

[MichiganCornhusker]

I like the boil-and-dump method for cooking corn, it has been working really well for me.
This latest batch was one of the first "cornless" recipes that I've done, so I thought I could skip the whole cooking step.
I miss the flavors of corn in the whiskey anyway, so in future I think I will just add the other unmalted grains to the corn and hit it all with the boiling water overnight.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Flaked is not yet fully gelatinized typically, just steamed enough to roll flat. Best to cook it.... next time try adding the flaked wheat right on the boiling water and let it steep cook stirring occasionally. It will be thick like porridge.

Btw, thank you to Jimbo for posting this on another thread earlier, it is what opened my eyes to the possible problem I had with the wheat...

[SoMo]

In my experience, corn is the only one ya really gotta cook. I haven't used unmalted wheat, but I have barley and oats, and both do fine at mashing temps. But if I'm doing a bourbon and have any other unmalted grains I go ahead and cook them with the corn.

Big R

See who that us up there^^^^^^^^^ the king of no cook steep, listen to him he's one of my big 3 AG idols.
I've found all the grains(unmalted of course) yield better from the higher temp steep and remember to steep in an insulated vessel mines a cooler.

[MichiganCornhusker]

See who that us up there^^^^^^^^^

Oh, yeah, I know Big R! He and I go all the way back to the start, my first all grain corn batch...

First of all, I thank BigR for his No-Boil thread...

His writeup for the no-boil was one of my first inspirations from these forums!
As I recall, Jimbo and NChooch provided lots of key info as well, as did all the posters who shared their scorch horror stories. I'm grateful to all.

[Jimbo]

My experience is that chart lies. Or maybe its under ideal conditions, finely ground grain, with a paddle stirrer going, for a while,.... I dunno, but when I try to shortcut a cook I get less yield. Doesnt matter if its corn, wheat, barley, oats whatever. But corn especially, that stuff is a mother and there's no way in hell you'll get it to gelatinize fully at 140-170 like that chart says.

[SoMo]

See who that us up there^^^^^^^^^

Oh, yeah, I know Big R! He and I go all the way back to the start, my first all grain corn batch...

First of all, I thank BigR for his No-Boil thread...

His writeup for the no-boil was one of my first inspirations from these forums!
As I recall, Jimbo and NChooch provided lots of key info as well, as did all the posters who shared their scorch horror stories. I'm grateful to all.

+1000 the AG trifecta of knowledge, that ain't no shit Jimbo corn laughs at those temps, closer to a hard boil then plenty of time, those 3 have helped me have fantastic results, great conversion and good sippin likker.

[Jimbo]

I'm proud and honored to be included in a 'trifecta' with NCHooch and BigR. I learned from those guys.

[SoMo]

And we from you, the true intent of this forum utilized to its potential, thanks uncle Jesse for bringing it all together.
Has anyone of you guys used steamed crimped oats without grinding or crushing them first, just using in their present state?

[Jimbo]

Yup. Makes a nice cement. Thins out fine with malt and LOTS of elbow grease. thats the shit I broke my handmade tiger striped maple mash paddle in. Now I use a paint stirrer chucked up in a half inch drill, and enzymes, lol

[SoMo]

Yup I was thinking enzymes 10$ a. 50# bag at the feed store, red wheat was 17$ for a 60# bag and I've no mill damnit.

[MitchyBourbon]

Here is a link to a BeerSmith article. It says, even though the gelatinization temps of most raw grain fall within standard malting temps it is still required to do a cereal mash (cook) to fully gelatinize and then convert raw grain. Flaked versions don't require a separate cereal mash.


http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/09/06/ce ... r-brewing/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[MichiganCornhusker]

thats the shit I broke my handmade tiger striped maple mash paddle in. Now I use a paint stirrer chucked up in a half inch drill

lol, ah yes, the progression from homebrewer to distiller, same game, different set of tools!

[Jimbo]

Yup I was thinking enzymes and I've no mill damnit.

You dont get to use enzymes until you appreciate 180 degree cement, and trying to stir in some lbs of malt into the damn brick after it drops to 150 . Call it a right of passage!

Buy a mill. 100 bucks well spent. And start making beer while yorue at it. If you got some homebrews on tap it almost keeps the vultures at bay from suckin down all your best hooch. At least slows em down some

[MichiganCornhusker]

Here is a link to a BeerSmith article.

MB, thanks for the link, good article. It does go on to say to raise the temp to boiling, but it never really explains why, and still puts out those strange low temp ranges for grains:

"Here are some common gelainization temperature ranges:

Unmalted Barley: 140-150 F (60-65C)
Wheat: 136-147 F (58-64 C)
Rye: 135-158 F (57-70 C)
Oats: 127-138 F (53-59 C)
Corn (Maize): 143-165 F (62-74 C)
Rice: 154-172 F (68-78 C)"

For instance, it suggests heating wheat up to a range of 136 to 147 "gelatinization range", but then goes on to say bring it up to a boil. Are they two separate acts, or is the boil part of gelatinization regardless of temp range?

"Hold the gelatinization temperature ranfe for 20 minutes.
Slowly raise the temperature of the cereal mash up to a gentle boil and hold it for 20-30 minutes."

I don't know, this is similar to to the other things I've read, even the corn at 143-165?? I just don't get it. I've done corn, 165 is like a cool breeze to corn.

They end the article with:
"There is no advantage to the cereal mash unless you are truly working with unusual unmalted ingredients or just feel like playing around with raw grains you grew in your garden!"
I would add "or unless you need to mash 150# of grain you got at the feed store for 20% the cost of malted grains at the beer store!"

[MichiganCornhusker]

You dont get to use enzymes until you appreciate 180 degree cement, and trying to stir in some lbs of malt into the damn brick after it drops to 150 . Call it a right of passage!

[SoMo]

You dont get to use enzymes until you appreciate 180 degree cement, and trying to stir in some lbs of malt into the damn brick after it drops to 150 . Call it a right of passage!

Been there done that left a bunch of corn to long unstirred to make a nice cooler sized brick of corn porridge never again, passed that test. It was a bitch. Now I add the enzymes and well it's slick as momma.

[MitchyBourbon]

SoMo wrote:
well it's slick as momma.

I don't know what that means, not sure I want to.

[shadylane]

Compared to some of the members here, I'm a newbie at all grain mashing.
I don't have any faith in the low temps the charts say to cook grain at. Especially corn.
I'm sure it works for the professionals, but not for me.
I've been having good luck cooking corn with direct steam injection.
Tried gelatinizing unmalted barely the same way and the tannins from the grain husks was overpowering.
If anyone is curios, there's a reason not to over cook barley.
Had to blend it with a wheat whiskey that was gelatinized at 165f.
That temp is also the upper limit for the alpha amylase I've been playing with.
As they say kill two birds with one stone.

Edited.
Can anyone tell us why the chart has three temps for barley.
One for barley, one for small granules and one for large granules.
Why would the grind have that much effect and not in a logical way?

[MitchyBourbon]

@ MichiganCornhusker,

They do seem to be giving some double talk. At the beginning they mention that the starch is contained granules that don't fully release the starches at mash temps. Maybe what is meant is that those temps would eventually gelatinize the grain given enough time. Like a whole lot a time.

[Jimbo]

Maybe what is meant is that those temps would eventually gelatinize the grain given enough time. Like a whole lot a time.

Thats my take on it too. Im sure given enough hours corn will gelatinize at that range. How many hours? I do 3 at 180's finishing in 170's, anything less and I get less conversion.

[SoMo]

Jimbo did you see my thread on remashing grains, I hoped you would have chimed in kinda falls in line with this discussion. It seems to me that even at higher temps and long steep times there's still some goodies locked away in there.

[Jimbo]

Sure, there's groceries left. Thats why I do the gumballhead. To be honest I still gotta bury the sugar in coke or smoke. My smokeyhead approaches a neat drinker. Buried the sugar in added peatmalt me tongue no likey sugar...

[Halfbaked]

If you got some homebrews on tap it almost keeps the vultures at bay from suckin down all your best hooch. At least slows em down some

I think I am the vulture.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Another thing I don't understand is why the range of temps? Will corn not gelatinize above 170? It's as if higher temps will interfere with gelatinizing, similar to mashing. That doesn't seem to be the case with corn though.
Why not just minimum temps? Shady does bring up a good point about high temps with husks. Any other drawbacks to high temps?

[Jimbo]

No fuck that. Corn will not gelatinize below 170.

Correct, husks can add bitter tannins. But do these come through the still, no I dont think so. Ive routinely cooked wheat oats barley same way I do corn. Never had a tannic spirit. When making beer however never use sparge water hotter than 170, for this very reason.

[SoMo]

Corn has no husk! Yes it will release the starches above 170 they stay liquified once cooler they firm up. Think gravy or pudding has to boil then thickens as it cools.

[MitchyBourbon]

I think some tannin does come through but not significantly. If your main ingredient is corn, which does not have a husk that can impart tannins I doubt it will be detectable.

I like corn.

Just thought is say that.