Over pitching yeast for whiskey washes

[chambersranch]

When I fist started researching this hobby the census seemed to me, that you should over pitch yeast to ensure a fast and vigorous ferment. I was wondering if anyone has done controlled experiments with the same batch of distillers beer, where the right amount of yeast for the amount of beer to be fermented was used, versus over pitching, and what affect it had on the resulting whiskey flavor?
Any insight would be appreciated.

[FullySilenced]

And that will be your homework assignment for the next 4 months... Please turn in your report to Rockchucker and see if he as room for you to take the Distillers Test...

Last i remember it had a waiting list...

[T-Pee]

Heh. Therein lies the journey vs. the destination.

The idea is to try out things that YOU want to know when it's a subjective...subject.
Different things for different palates, if you will and that's what makes this hobby so much fun.

tp

[MitchyBourbon]

I have not done a controlled experiment but I can tell you what over pitching will do. When you pitch the prescribed "right" amount of yeast and aerate the wort the yeast begin their exponential growth phase. During this period they reproduce until they have reached a maximum colony size for the amount of available sugar or until the available nutrients are gone. It is this phase and activity that they produce much of the esters that are going to be produced. So the idea behind over pitching is that if the colony is already at maximum size the yeast will skip this phase and produce less esters. The trick is determining just how much to over pitch. It is possible to over pitch to the extent that you can cause auto lysis and that produces off flavors too. Even if you do over pitch just the right amount... you could end up with some pretty boring whisky. In the end it really comes down to what your preference is. If you think your whisky is to bold... give it a try.

Over pitching does have one other feature, i think it is minor compared with my previous remarks. Over pitching will help to lower the risk of infection. Most bacteria reproduce much faster than yeast so obviously the sooner you get your yeast established the less likely it is to become infected. I feel this minor because these risks can be lowered just as easily by taking care to sanitize your work area and equipment.

References:
How To Brew; by John Palmer
Yeast The practicle guide to beer fermentation; by Chris White and Jamie Zainasheff

[bearriver]

Mitch has offered some great insight. Also, beer related forums and books have discussed this subject to death.

"Whiskey washes" is a misnomer. You can not make whiskey from a wash. It could instead be a faux whiskey, sugar head. At it's very best a close imitation of the real thing...

Mash = All Grain ingredients (except for the yeast and potential water conditioners)
Wash = Added sugar, or sugar byproduct ingredients.

There is a plethora of documented opinions on how much to yeast to pitch. It is now up to you to document your endeavors and form your own opinions.

[Andy Capp]

Mitch has offered some great insight. Also, beer related forums and books have discussed this subject to death.

"Whiskey washes" is a misnomer. You can not make whiskey from a wash. It could instead be a faux whiskey, sugar head. At it's very best a close imitation of the real thing...

Mash = All Grain ingredients (except for the yeast and potential water conditioners)
Wash = Added sugar, or sugar byproduct ingredients.

There is a plethora of documented opinions on how much to yeast to pitch. It is now up to you to document your endeavors and form your own opinions.

Not quite right bearriver
The liquid taken off a mash is called WORT.
The WORT is then transferred to washbacks/fermentors where yeast is added.
The fermenting liquid is now called WASH.
When finished, the WASH is distilled to make whiskey.

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

So then what if you don't take the liquid off the grains after mashing?

[chambersranch]

I know most topics in this hobby are subjective, and that is what makes it hard for a definitive answer. I try to find enough correlating information on the things that interest me about this hobby to help guide me in the direction I'm wanting to go, so as to not waste time trying to reinvent the wheel (so to Speak).

So here is another subjective question. What is more palatable in a whisky as fas as congeners, esters or aldehydes? Both can be manipulated in the beer! Ultimately most are removed in the foreshots just like most of the fusel alcohols are left in the tails.

All the input is appreciated.

[bearriver]

Andy, according to Wikipedia you are right. However the definition does not cite any references or sources, and conflicts with how the term is often used here on the forums. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wash_%28distilling%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I am sure you have noticed that "wash" is a term commonly used here exclusively to describe added sugar in a ferment, such as with rum or Birdwatcher's.

Where as a mash is a term commonly used here to describe a ferment who's primary source of sugar is from mashed grains (AG).

[bearriver]

What is more palatable in a whisky as fas as congeners, esters or aldehydes? Both can be manipulated in the beer! Ultimately most are removed in the foreshots just like most of the fusel alcohols are left in the tails.

Look at the distillers guide to making cuts in the reading lounge and you will have a better visual idea of how fractions and flavors play out throughout a run.

You are right that you can manipulate, increase, or decrease those substances to alter the flavor of your whiskey. There are many methods to do so. Palatable for the most part is also subjective. T-Pee said it well.

[chambersranch]

What is more palatable in a whisky as fas as congeners, esters or aldehydes? Both can be manipulated in the beer! Ultimately most are removed in the foreshots just like most of the fusel alcohols are left in the tails.

Look at the distillers guide to making cuts in the reading lounge and you will have a better visual idea of how fractions and flavors play out throughout a run.

You are right that you can manipulate, increase, or decrease those substances to alter the flavor of your whiskey. There are many methods to do so. Palatable for the most part is also subjective. T-Pee said it well.

I don't understand how it is a master distiller like you assumes I don't understand how fractions and cuts work by my previous posts. Your reference to do some more reading isn't a help to me, nor is it an answer to what your experiences and personal tastes are when it comes to whisky, which is all I was looking for.

When multiple people arrive at the same perceived outcome, you start to see a pattern at which to base a theory. I thought this was a place to bounce ideas and information around by liked minded people. I would like to see a little more positive input from some of the so called "Masters" when it comes to some of the other members of this great forum. I think we would have more people contributing to this forum, instead of lurking if it weren't for some of the snarky answers and the assumption that people are ignorant.

[MitchyBourbon]

Here is an interesting read. I agree that individual interpretation of flavor compounds is subjective. However, how it happens and how it can be manipulated is objective.

https://byo.com/stories/item/630-fermen ... ew-science" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[chambersranch]

Thanks Mitchybourbon

[chambersranch]

I have read a lot of that info in the Alcohol Textbook volume 5. Like all beers certain yeast, lactobacillus , congeners, etc. all the things that make each beer unique is exactly what I'm trying to understand about whisky. I was mearly looking for a base line to work off of. I don't live in an area where I can go buy a whole lot of top shelf award winning whisky to taste for myself to see what makes them so special. I was looking for people that do know what yeast, congeners work best with whisky. I don't make sugar heads, I like AG and want to get the most out of what nature gives us. I don't mind labor intensive processes, and I don't care how long it takes! But when I'm done I want it to be the best I can get. I will just keep on keepin on!

[bearriver]

Ultimately most are removed in the foreshots

"Master Distiller" is a silly title because of my post count. Nothing more.

I suggested looking at the visuals in that thread because of this statement. Nothing snarky about it, just trying to refer you information that has been explained better than I can. I think it would help expand your ideas about how different flavors smear throughout the run in a pot still. Maybe you just got something from reading that thread I didn't? There is no cause for discourse...

[MDH]

Lower pitch + good head space in carboy + high temp = fruitier Whiskey. High pitch rate + low temp = grain forward.

[MitchyBourbon]

I choose a nice.ale yeast that has a medium to low eater profile. I find that most yeast produce more than is required. I also tend to like fruity, floral, carmel or neutral flavors and aromas. I stay away from anything that suggests diacetyl, sulphur or yeasty. Then I ferment with the goal to minimize any extra production of esters, phenols, fusils, aldehydes. As I said above the yeast are going to produce plenty of these as is.

Next as bearriver indicated is making cuts. This is were the flavor happens. You've chosen the yeast you want, fermented with right nutrition and environment and now its time to make cuts. I'm not going to explain them as you have a indicated you understand the procedure. Maybe you could explain it to me cuz it still seems like a black art to me but I try.

Here is a link that have had bookmarked for some time now. It gives an extensive but by no means exhaustive list of yeasts along with a description of each.

http://www.beertools.com/html/ingredien ... view=yeast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[chambersranch]

MDH thanks, that's the type of information is was after, same goes for you Mitchybourbon.
As far as cuts go I'm finding that I started out in a hurry, because I wanted something to drink right now, and was too conservative with my cuts, for the kind of rig I'm running. If all I take from a run is the hearts and everything else ends up in the feints, I seem to end up with a dull flavor. It's smooth but not very interesting. Two years ago I did a run with a pretty wide cut, and after it was aged on oak, and diluted, it had a flavor and sharpness to it I didn't care for. So I put it in a dark corner to be run again someday. This spring when I started organizing some new gear I had purchased I came across that gallon jug. Out of curiosity I opened it and took a drink. Wow was I surprised. I've been trying to stay out of it every since. Also in that dark corner was a gallon jug of panela and feed molasses rum feints, it also was two years old. It smells and tastes like it could be drunk, although I won't. It is nothing like it was when I put it there. Time has a way with the undesirables.