80% corn 20% distillers malt mash results

[chambersranch]

30 gal total wash
27 lbs. ground corn (used a corona mill with heavy duty drill to reduce corn to about 3mm not much flower)
18 lbs. distillers malt ( ground as small as I could without to much damage to the husk)

1.5 lbs. of grain per gallon

Added 18 gal. Of fresh water to BOP, heated till boiling, added 27lbs. corn while mixing with a drill an paddle mixer. Turned off the burner, coved with lid and stired every 30 minutes for 90 minutes. Mash was thick like porridge. Temperature was around 162*F at the end of the 90 min.

I reduced the temp to about 158* F using 2 gal cold sterile backset. PH was 5.0. I added 9 lbs. of malt out of the 18 lbs. for the alpha amylase conversion of the starch. Target temp was 155* F and it landed at 153*F. I covered with lid let stand 30 minutes.

Removed the lid, porridge was now liquid. Temp was about 152*F. I reduced the heat with about 3-1/2 gal. of cold backset to about 147*F, checked PH was 4.5. Added the other 9lbs. of malt, for the Beta amylase conversion, temp landed at 142*F target was 145*F. Covered let stand for 30-45 minutes.

I removed the lid, did an iodine test to check for starch. 7 drops no color change. Tasted real sweet!

Drained into two 20 gallon screw lid barrels through a kitchen strainer. When grain bed started to show and the top was dry, I sparged with 4 gallons of 170*F water, then another 4 gallons. I collected it in two 5 gal. buckets rotating them until I had 15 gal in each 20 gallon barrel. I added another 3 gallons of sparge water to collect what little sugar remained for future batch.

After I cleaned my BOP out of the spent grains, I removed the false bottom, washed it out and then added both barrels back into it to pasturise it. Once at temp I submerged my wort chiller to sterilize it. After 5 minutes I turned of my burner unit and turned on my circulating pump to chill it down to 90*F.

Specific gravity was 1.050 at 90*F temperature correction

I checked the spent grain for residual sugar there was none!

[Steep-n-Rocky]

Nice job detailing what you did with this mash! It is clear, concise, and you tell why you did something when you did it. I mash in a similar fashion but do not pasteurize or use (i.e. have) a wort chiller. Please keep us posted!

[chambersranch]

Thanks, I used 11.5 grams of Safeale US-05 yeast to two quarts of wash, let set overnight, and pitched 1 quart in each barrel after a good stir. Will post results when finished fermenting. I chose that yeast based on availability at my HBS, and temperature where I ferment.

[goblin]

this sounds like what i will do soon.
i would like to know your final gravity reading.
i was thinking of doing my with a 1.060 - 1.065 mash.
just in case i only get to 1.010.
i have the same yeast also.

[chambersranch]

It was 1.050
You can use a higher grain to water ratio
You could use less sparge water at the cost of reduced volume
Or boil off water vapor till you reach your target

[Mountaintop]

Hey thanks for this great breakdown. It really helps to see all your concise steps. i like the double grain hit at the two different temps to capture the best of both enzymes.
I scaled your method down and tried this in a 5 gallon batch on the grain. Starting gravity about 1.065 . I was a little disappointed that I didn't get full starch conversion. I think I'll have to let it sit longer next time.
Am I missing something or is this a 60/40 recipe not a 80/20?

[MichiganCornhusker]

I'm curious about your mash temps. From what I've read it seems to be best to mash all malted grains at less than 150 degrees because higher temps produce a higher percentage of unfermentable sugars.
You are deliberately mashing the first half of your grains at a higher temp. Your process and method seem really well thought out and precise, so I'm wondering if you have a reason for the higher temp mash based on your own experience.

[Mountaintop]

Jumping in... As I understand it...Most of the starch is converted quickly by the alpha enzyme to dextrins..this occurs at the higher temps. These sugars however are slow to ferment but are important as far as converting starch into some form of sugar that is at least "more manageable". Starch end point is when there is no starch left ...but does not mean all the sugar is converted to something fermentable. it says nothing about what shape the useable sugar is reslly in. Beta amalayse is the less sturdy enzime (lower temp) but it is the rock in converting dextrin and some starches to more easily feremted maltose sugars. As one refernce book I have says... "The beta is a pocket knife and the alpha is the axe." In order to chop the startch tree down you need the alpha axe to do the heavy lifting and the beta knife to make all those combustible shavings. The problem is ..most of the pocket knife enzyme is destroyed by the higher axe swinging temperatures.

The double hit at two different temperatures makes sure the heavy lifting is done by the alpha....and then the beta comes in second to finish the job and clean up. You actually should see a full iodine check after alpha is complete, but a longer time is needed for the final beta conversion to all of those yeast accessible maltose sugars.

Top of the mountain to ya.

[chambersranch]

The information I used is from this forum and others. There is a lot of disinformation and bullshit to wade through on all forums. That being said, I looked for information being posted by multiple people on the same topic, that say the same thing. The other thing I noticed was a lot of the references on here pertain to the beer making processes, which some interchange, while others are not necessary. There are a few members that are on these forums that are beverage ethanol lab scientists, they don't post a lot but when they read bullshit they reply with the facts and leave it at that. The other thing is the mathematics involved, I don't think some people understand how important math is when it comes to this hobby. I also found this book but it is cost prohibitive for people and it contains sound information.

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[MichiganCornhusker]

Thank you for the info, Chambers. After reading you 80/20 process, I'm not at all surprised that you have strong, informed opinions about how best to mash! I ordered a book last week about mashing, and at $50 I thought that was pricy, will have to put this textbook on my Christmas list. Thanks again for the leads.

[chambersranch]

Here is some math for ya.
To get conversion of starches to sugar you need at least a diastatic power of 30*L
27 lbs. Unmalted corn, it has a diastatic power of 0.
18 lbs. Distillers malt, it has a diastatic power of 250

You take the sum of the diastatic power for each grain times it's weight divided by the total grain weight.
This is what that would look like.

0x27=0*L
250x18=4500*L
4500/45=100*L

The consensus with corn, is you need at least 70*L.
The malting companies have this information on there websites for every malt product they sell.

Here's a quick back of the napkin mash efficiency calculation based on this recipe and my results.

45 lbs. x 37 points per pound = 1665
30 gals. X 1.050 (50 points) = 1500
1500/1665= 90% efficiency
That is skewed a little because of the backset I used has a little alcohol left in it, so the actual number is more like 85% efficiency.
Math doesn't lie!

Hope this helps other members that are struggling with AG like I was.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Thanks, love the math.
Are you adding the backset to reduce the pH each time?
1.050 looks good for that grain/water ratio, is your FG reading low, and how would a higher FG affect the efficiency number?

Btw, the book I ordered is about malting, not mashing, so I will continue to rely on HD as main source for my mashing research.

[chambersranch]

I added the backset to reduce the PH and the temperature.
As for the FG, it's finishing up right now. I was going to take a reading today to see where it's at. It's cooling of here in the NW and I used safeale us-05 yeast, so it's a slower ferment than the redstar yeast I normally use. I chose the safeale us-05 based on the temps here going into fall weather patterns as I don't use a controlled fermentation room.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Just checking my understanding of the concept:
The first addition of malt at the higher temps is to create an alpha army that starts hacking up the starches into larger less fermentable chunks.
The second addition of malt at the lower temps provides the beta crew to go to town on all the unfermentables in the first malt. Alpha army is still present and hacking up the second addition of malt as well.
So, the reason this doesn't produce a more unfermentable wort is because there has been enough time for beta to clean up both batches of malt?
If brewing beer, and your goal was to keep some unfermentables for more body, would it be important to denature the enzymes with heat at a certain point to avoid complete conversion by beta over an extended time?

[chambersranch]

Watch this video it my contain an answer to your question, it has a lot of info contained in it. Try around the 15:30 and 28:00 minute mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEkwp_2Yezo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Also watch some of the videos by John Palmer from Northern Brewer. He has some really informative videos on AG brewing, water alkalinity etc. I found them valuable.

[chambersranch]

I did a gravity reading and here are the results.
OG was 1.050
FG was 1.011
Alcohol by volume 5.11%
Alcohol by weight 4.09%
Yeast attenuation
Apparent 78.0%
Real 63.3%
That about all that can be expected of the safeale US-05 yeast, as it's a medium attenuating yeast.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Thanks foe the update, and for your suggestion, much appreciated!

[likkerlover]

palmers book "how to brew" is a good resource too. and i dont think it was anywhere near $50. it helped me alot when moving to all grain beer which alot can be transferred over with all grain whiskey

[MichiganCornhusker]

Definitely going to check out palmer's stuff as I start digging deeper into the science of the malt/mash, thanks guys

[waster]

Maybe we could re-name this thread 60% corn 40% distillers malt.

[Mountaintop]

I agree " the math doesn't lie"
(Sorry, I had to...)
Just checked my batch of this thread scaled down and had good attenuation. I'm run'in the still tonight cause the fermentation "blubs" have finished and I'm showing 0.97 as a final.

[Mountaintop]

Sorry that was 0.99

[corene1]

Here is some math for ya.
To get conversion of starches to sugar you need at least a diastatic power of 30*L
27 lbs. Unmalted corn, it has a diastatic power of 0.
18 lbs. Distillers malt, it has a diastatic power of 250

You take the sum of the diastatic power for each grain times it's weight divided by the total grain weight.
This is what that would look like.

0x27=0*L
250x18=4500*L
4500/45=100*L

The consensus with corn, is you need at least 70*L.
The malting companies have this information on there websites for every malt product they sell.

Here's a quick back of the napkin mash efficiency calculation based on this recipe and my results.

45 lbs. x 37 points per pound = 1665
30 gals. X 1.050 (50 points) = 1500
1500/1665= 90% efficiency
That is skewed a little because of the backset I used has a little alcohol left in it, so the actual number is more like 85% efficiency.
Math doesn't lie!

Hope this helps other members that are struggling with AG like I was.

I am curious where you got the numbers from. I checked the parent site and corn has a maximum ppg of 39 and only makes up 37 pounds of your mash . I don't know what the max ppg of distillers malt is, but there is 18 pounds of that to make your total 45 pound grain bill that you used in your formula. Wouldn't you have to average the 2 to get an actual ppg to plug into the formula?

[Mountaintop]

I'm assuming he went withe the average of both because they are fairly similar in content. Distillaters malt seams close to 2 row base malts ... just cheaper and less quality/colour control.