2" dephlag size?

[Digital_Plasma]

Hi,

On an upcoming project, I'm thinking of building a dephlegmater. I'm building single plate "flute", with inspiration from mr. Piss' Fu Man. The column is going to be 2" (54mm) diam. Not sure on length yet. Same with the dephleg... How big should it be? I'm using 2" pipe for it and thinking of 4 x 3/4" (18mm) pipes inside, length 10-12". Would this suffice? And what would it handle. Theoretically....

Ps: Also having a 42" x 1/2" inside tube x 1" outside Liebig condenser as product condenser for output. Just for info....

DP

[googe]

Hi digital_plasma, I'd be more inclined to use that size dephleg for a shotgun producg condenser. A 2" dephleg wouldn't need to be any bigger than 3" IMO. As long as it can knock down enough vapor to load your plate, keep it loaded, doesn't have to knock down a million Watts. I have a 80mm one in one of my 4" columns and it works overly fine!. Like has been said many times before, you will be amazed at how little coolant you will need!. What sort of plate section are you doing?, size, plate type etc?. Good luck, don't forget pocs

[DAD300]

Your 10"-12" length is long...if you go look at commercial made versions they are about 4"-6" long with 3x 3/8" tubes...

If you make it too powerful, you will have trouble getting any vapor past it.

[Digital_Plasma]

Hi digital_plasma, I'd be more inclined to use that size dephleg for a shotgun producg condenser. A 2" dephleg wouldn't need to be any bigger than 3" IMO. As long as it can knock down enough vapor to load your plate, keep it loaded, doesn't have to knock down a million Watts. I have a 80mm one in one of my 4" columns and it works overly fine!. Like has been said many times before, you will be amazed at how little coolant you will need!. What sort of plate section are you doing?, size, plate type etc?. Good luck, don't forget pocs

Thanks for the feedback googe. The plate is to be placed aprox. 8-10" above the boiler. Would it make sense packing that part of the column? Plate size, aprox 8" with caps. And i wont forget pics when it comes to that time.

Your 10"-12" length is long...if you go look at commercial made versions they are about 4"-6" long with 3x 3/8" tubes...

If you make it too powerful, you will have trouble getting any vapor past it.

You are thinking flooding? Thats why I need the experts in here. I know its a partial condenser, but I didnt know it was THAT effective.... The way I "calculated" the size, was in the "Condenser size" calc in the main page where I choosed the "jacketed condenser" and entered some aprox numbers of what I was expecting. It led me to about 40" overall tube length, and i just "cut" that down to 4 pieces... But I see that was not the aproach.

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

The condenser calculator is for product condensers. To cool all vapour right down.

[Digital_Plasma]

The condenser calculator is for product condensers. To cool all vapour right down.

Makes sense.

[LWTCS]

Your partial condenser needs to be designed for two way traffic flow.
Rising vapor and falling reflux.

[Digital_Plasma]

Your partial condenser needs to be designed for two way traffic flow.
Rising vapor and falling reflux.

So more tubes with smaller diameter or are 3-4 tubes of 3/4" diam ok?

[jedneck]

Fewer larger tubes is better for reflux condesor. More smaller tubes will choke and flood.

[Digital_Plasma]

I'll stick with the original plan then. 4x3/4" pipes but with reduced length....

[DAD300]

If you use 3/4" tubes, you will end up putting something in them (a wad of Scrubbie) to make vapor touch the sides. I believe 3/4" is too large.

Again, go look at the commercial made versions. They have a lot of research behind the final design. Even an 8" commercial Deph only uses 1/2" inner tubes.

[shadylane]

Not sure what the best configuration is for a 2" dephleg
I have a 2-1/2" dephleg with five 1/2" tubes 10" long.
It will knock down 4000w when the 1/8" needle valve that controls the coolant is wide open.

At lower powered settings, control becomes an issue.
The needle valve is almost closed and small changes has a big effect.
If I had it to do over, the condenser would be 5-7" long.

[googe]

At lower powered settings, control becomes an issue. The needle valve is almost closed and small changes has a big effect. If I had it to do over, the condenser would be 5-7" long......that's a great example of why cm's have a bad name here. They don't need to be big!. A dude on another site did one with 4x1/2" inside, said it works.great. My shotgun is 4x1/2". I like larger tubes and less, but that's hard with 2", the dephleg I use all the time is 4x1" inside a 4" column,but the latest I did on my new build is a single coldfinger of 1.5" x 80mm long and holds the column on full reflux. So, there's many ways to do it, don't think big, think efficient and easy to drive.

[Digital_Plasma]

Looks like there's more then one way to skin this cat. Question is just to choose the best method. Most of you seem to agree om using 1/2" tube. Is this correct ? This is new science for me and im trying to understand the basics.

[Digital_Plasma]

So, there's many ways to do it, don't think big, think efficient and easy to drive.

What kind of efficiency are we takling about here?

[DAD300]

Water usage is one efficiency. Power another...

If you have large tubes, say two 1" tubes in a 2" x 12" shell (I'm making for a worst case scenario), it will take lots of cold water, a long shell and some turbulence device to make all the vapor touch a tube and condense...

However, a 2" x 6" with five tubes of 3/8" will force the vapor into contact with either the increased bottom of the dephlag or the interior of a smaller tube and use less water. Smaller tubes help create vapor turbulence within the dephlag.


For illustration purposes only...my 2" x 20" shotgun Product Condenser has seven 3/8" tubes in it. Using 70 degree F tap water to cool it. The top of the shell never gets warm. The product, that condenses, comes out at approx 80F.

But if mounted vertically, with no induced turbulence or resistance, vapor can fall from top to bottom, never touch the side of the tubes and exit as vapor.

If I tilt it ten degrees, or add a piece of cheese cloth for resistance at the output end, all vapor touches a tube and is condensed!

Another efficiency could be boiler power. If the Dephlag is poorly designed you could be wasting energy heating your boiler. Too tall a dephlag will make you use extra energy, to create vapor speed to push vapor through it. Then you might get caught up adding water flow to knock that down. It can be come fiddly to operate. More power, more water, less power, a lot less water, no output, more power,...exaggeration intended.

Take my 2" x 20" Product Condenser. It is overly efficient for a 3" rig as a Product Condenser. Now try to use it as a Dephlag on a 2" column. As a Dephlag on a 2" column, with almost no water flow I would have a terrible time getting enough boiler power (vapor) to get any vapor above it!

I hope that makes sense. Best advice...look at working examples and copy them...then try to make them better. There are people here that have spent years, working to optimize these designs.

[Digital_Plasma]

Super answer DAD! I think I understand. I'll look further into the design and bet on something smaller. For turbulance in the tubes, could I put small spirals that touch the inside wall of the tubes? It would'nt be as restrictive as mesh filled tubes, but enough to make the vapor touch the walls. Just a thought. Not sure if it would work.
I'll take a better look at the functioning models and work from that. Thanks so much for the help so far. If any of you have more ideas or tips, please share.

[shadylane]

Some thing to keep in mind, inside a Dephlag vapor is rising and liquid is falling at the same time.
If the tubes are too small the vapor may restrict the downward flow of liquid.

[Digital_Plasma]

Some thing to keep in mind, inside a Dephlag vapor is rising and liquid is falling at the same time.
If the tubes are too small the vapor may restrict the downward flow of liquid.

Thanks for the advise. Im aware of flooding problems due to small tubes, and to my understanding, I need to go no smaller than 3/8" and smaller than 3/4". So anything in between that gives me right amount of cooling.

[googe]

Sounds like 1/2" is the go. All I can say is, why build it so you need cloth, spirals, scrubby etc, build it to work without added accessories. Less is more. Find information from members that have built and used dephlegmators, not members with theories on them. KISS.

[Digital_Plasma]

Sounds like 1/2" is the go. All I can say is, why build it so you need cloth, spirals, scrubby etc, build it to work without added accessories. Less is more. Find information from members that have built and used dephlegmators, not members with theories on them. KISS.

Did you just call me stupid???

I agree on keeping it simple. 1/2" it will be. I have been reading about builds with 2" deflegs, but the results and sizes differ from build to build. I know that there isn't any direct guide to builds, but we're getting closer for every build. Another "problem" is that we all want something that "we" created our selfs, and not the excact same that the neighbour has. Thats how i feel anyway. But that doesn't mean that I wont listen to or not do what other more experinced builders and destillers say. Thats not my place at all.

Well, back on track. I keep on reading until I understand 100% the whys and the why nots. But please coninue to educate me. Im still learning.

[shadylane]

Is tube and shell better than a coil when used as a Dephlag on a 2" column?

[DAD300]

I certainly wouldn't say better. And def not easier to make. But if I ran every day, If my setup was permanent, I might think it easier to clean.

I could make a coil in a "T" Dephlag in a few minutes, or a coil in a "Y" could be even easier.

Y Dephlegmator.jpg (15.5 KiB) Viewed 3760 times

Assume this is all just standard Triclamp and a CSST or copper coil.

The standard shotgun style may offer a flat front surface that would take less water flow.

But the design above would allow you to move the coil in and out of the vapor path. No welding/soldering involved.

This might be a better CCVM than the vertical condenser.

If I wanted a Dephlag and didn't want to buy one, this is what I'd make.

[Digital_Plasma]

Very cool design DAD. I had plans for something simular a while back, but coulden't find a "Y" that was large enough. And import costs was sky high for the ones I could get . So im on the classic dephleg.

[googe]

We all have our own designs and they work for us, might not work for others. Follow others or do your own thing, that's the million dollar question. You have a good attitude with listening and studying. I've always taken knowledge from experienced people and put my own spin on it to suit my needs, in the end it's what pleased you, what your comfortable with building, what works to your likes.

[Digital_Plasma]

We all have our own designs and they work for us, might not work for others. Follow others or do your own thing, that's the million dollar question. You have a good attitude with listening and studying. I've always taken knowledge from experienced people and put my own spin on it to suit my needs, in the end it's what pleased you, what your comfortable with building, what works to your likes.

I think its because of personal tweeks on each system. Local conditions (outside temps, cooling water temps, packing, vapor speed, cooling speed ect) has alot to say and is properly some of the reasons why the systems react differently in the hands of another person.
Im looking so much forward to getting to work. Im setting up a "new" workshop (I just moved), and when im finished with that, I can get down to some serious work. At the moment im ordering triclamps, ferrules and other parts so I have it in stock.

[ezlle71]

I built a reflux condenser for my 2 inch tower. If i remember correctly it is 8 inchs long and is 1 1/2 pipe inside of 2 inch. When running for high proof i have the needle valve open maybe 1/4 to 1/2 a turn. If i had it to do over i would shorten the RC to 4-5 inchs. With the current size i can stop all 5500W of power i can throw in the boiler. But i lived and learned. Good luck. Was gonna try the multiple tubes but the 1 1/2 inside of 2 in was alot easier
ez

[humbledore]

ez do you have any pics of what you're talking about? Is it an internal water jacket?

[ezlle71]

I don't have a pic. Its essentially a tube and shell condenser with 1.5 inside of 2 in pipe. soldered a 1.5 x 2 in coupling to the 1.5 pipe. then set the 2 in over the pipe and let it rest on the 2 in bell end of the coupling. then on the top side cut the 2 in bell end off another of that same coupling and made sure it fit tite inside of 2 in then soldered it to the 1.5 and slid the entire assembly in the 2 in pipe and soldered it at both ends then added cooling water ports inn the sides at both ends. I finally got a little paint drawing to upload so maybe this will help
ez

RC.jpg (6.64 KiB) Viewed 3285 times

[still_stirrin]

Multiple smaller diameter tubes will have more surface area in contact with the vapor than a single 1-1/2" pipe. It'll be more efficient with more surface area.

What you're showing is essentially a concentric condenser to be used as a deflag. Probably it'll work. But a more convential deflag would be more efficient and could be shorter length.
ss