Size recommendations

[Alchemist]

This is a cross post excerpt from one I put in Novices.

I have been using a 3 L rotating column still from http://www.copper-alembic.com/ns/catego ... category=8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow. Now I am looking at buying my own (so I don't have to do 6 stripping runs for one 5 gallon batch).

The runs have given me thoughts about where I now want to go. Namely a larger still (go figure). I really like the style I borrowed and am looking at the 30 L without rotating column. The thought is so I can do 5 gallon grain runs (all malt whisk(e)y) with room to foam. I'd love opinions from the more experienced about that. In addition, I'm thinking a 5L rotating column one for final slow spirit runs. Thoughts? Is that over kill? Seems odd doing 3-4L of 50% in a 30 L still. I'm thinking I will go through copper-alembic.com in Portugal. They were tremendously helpful and responsive to e-mails. Anyone else use them and/or have any issue bringing in "lawn ornaments"?

Noting that I like 5-6 gallon mash runs (it's what I've done for 20 years and am happy), is 30 L good? Someone suggested 40L would also work very well with the extra head space.

And does anyone have experience with soldered vs riveted? From just the eye candy side, I really like the riveted. They claim to have the rivet seal down with no problems.

Thanks all.

[S-Cackalacky]

I would suggest going with the 40L. You'll probably be happier with that in the long run. Just like you found the 3L too small, you might feel the same about the 30L after a while. With the 40L (or the 30L) you could do maybe 3 stripping runs and then combine the low wines for a single spirit run. Also, for safety reasons, you should dilute your spirit runs down to no more than 40%.

If you live in the US, you've been a member here long enough to know that buying from a commercial manufacturer will get you on a TTB list. If you feel uncomfortable with that, building might be a better option.

[thecroweater]

well he is talking about buying it from this mob then he won't be on any list as the TTB has no jurisiticion outside of the US

[Alchemist]

If you live in the US, you've been a member here long enough to know that buying from a commercial manufacturer will get you on a TTB list. If you feel uncomfortable with that, building might be a better option.

Yeah, I've been here years. And actually, I will be putting it to use in various perfectly legal activities (some of the time), so TTB list isn't a huge deal I think. That said, I was mistaken. I thought it was only US commercial manufacturers, and going out of the US avoided that. No?

[Jo Diesel]

I have a 60l pot still and think this is a good size. Can do a 50l run and still have head space.
For building, You could always go to a welding shop and have it tig welded. I thing riveted will leak with time. Copper is not thick enough. The old boy on the stillers show built them by rolling and bending by hand then soldered all the joints.

[NZChris]

The extra still is overkill and a handycap. I've been running a 33l pot still for decades, takes a 5gal charge no trouble. A dump valve makes for quick recharging, without have to wait for cooling down time etc..

Use a fermenter large enough to make three or four charges worth, run that, then use the same still for the spirit run. That way, you're not messing around trying to do cuts on small runs and you get to make enough that it's easy to put some away for aging.

[Alchemist]

The extra still is overkill and a handycap. I've been running a 33l pot still for decades, takes a 5gal charge no trouble. A dump valve makes for quick recharging, without have to wait for cooling down time etc..

Use a fermenter large enough to make three or four charges worth, run that, then use the same still for the spirit run. That way, you're not messing around trying to do cuts on small runs and you get to make enough that it's easy to put some away for aging.

Except I said I have no desire to upgrade my brewing system to brew more. Nor do want to combine 3-4 runs for my 2nd distillation. I frankly don't want that much distilled spirit from one batch.

With that firmly in mind, is the 2nd still still overkill? And why would it be a handicap? How does 4-5 L behave in a 30-40 L still?

[myles]

I like to rivet copper seams and then solder them. 5 litres is the smallest I would consider and 30 is nice. Use extra volume for headspace or foam on some recipes, you don't need to fill the boiler.
I bought my 100 litre keg with the intention of running 50 litre rum charges specifically because of the foam issue.

[myles]

Just looking back at the OP I wouldn't recommend charging a directly heated pot still with a high proof charge. On the pot still there are good reason for keeping below 30%.

You can off course do spirit runs with small boiler charges its just making cuts is easier with bigger volumes. Diluting the still charge also helps. 30 litres is quite a nice small boiler size in my opinion. What volumes do you get out of your 6 gallon mash?

On a spirit run you don't really want a boiler charge of less than 50% boiler capacity because of the issue of purging the vapour space at the start of the run.

[Alchemist]

@myles,

Thanks. Good info. The vapor purge makes a lot of sense and why I think I brought this up. Under 50% full just kept feeling wrong but I could not put my finger on it.

Ok, for all the reading I've done over the years, I've missed the caution about directly heating a pot still with a high proof charge. I've seen it twice now. Once with you offering 30% and another at around 45%. Would you mind pointing me in the right direction for discussions on that. The search feature has failed me. While doing Odin's simple gin, I charged the 3 L I had with 45% and heated via an electric hot plate. Didn't have any issue that I could tell.

The 5 gallons of mead (11%) I ran gave me about 4.5 L at @ 45%. No cuts except fore shots, know I was going to run it again. I re-ran 3 L as a spirit run for just under 2 L in the mid 70% which diluted out to 3 L @ 45%. I actually loved how tight and easy this 2nd spirit charge ran. Likewise, after using that 3 L for Odin's gin, it was run a third time. Collected 400 ml hearts (high 70%), diluted to 45%.

The 5 gallons of cider gave me 1.5 L @ 55% which was diluted to 45% and is with some oak.

[myles]

Ok there are actually multiple factors involved here but I will try to unravel them.

I am happy to charge a reflux still with 40 to 50% ABV. Some specialised indirectly heated pot stills can charge at 60% but the alcohol is NOT the product. Usually it is solvent extraction of a herbal colour or flavour.

In any still there is an explosion potential until the oxgyen has been purged out of the vapour path which is why indirectly heated boilers are used with high ABV charges.

Getting back to the pot still you have merged two scenarios.

For gin you should be charging with a very clean, previously prepared base spirit, which is why you have got around one of the problems. I actually prefer genever so will reduce my still charge to below 30%.

If you use a blended charge for flavoured product, or even a simple low wines charge, there is a problem. Tails are soluble in ethanol above 30%. This makes your cuts more difficult. Now your boiler charge for gin is probably nice and clean anyway, so this may not be an issue. For whisky or rum it could be one.

The 30% boiler charge really relates to whisky and brandy where the tails solubility becomes an issue. If you dilute your boiler charge to 27% you can actually hydro separate part of the heads and tails (by density) so they never get put into the boiler at all. This increases your hearts yield for the flavoured product.

I like my pot distilled vodka but by the time I have washed it through 4 dilutions and re distillations it only has residual flavour. I DON'T drink real neutral that is produced on my VM column. That is just a feedstock for gin and infused products. I actually prefer the flavoured genever to gin.

[Alchemist]

The 30% boiler charge really relates to whisky and brandy where the tails solubility becomes an issue. If you dilute your boiler charge to 27% you can actually hydro separate part of the heads and tails (by density) so they never get put into the boiler at all. This increases your hearts yield for the flavoured product.

Ok, due to this statement I've now read quite a bit on hydroseparation, but much of the source material either I can't find or is restricted over on Artisan Distiller. Can you point to a place I can read up more? Also found a bunch of BS on 'hydro-polishing'.

From what I think I understand, by diluting to 27%, your higher fusels become insoluble at which point they separate due to density and float to the top. Do some sink to the bottom also? I see about taking a middle 1/3 but that seems very wasteful. That the upper and lower layer of separated compounds should be no more than a 'slick' and you could easily take a 'center 80%' (leaving 10 top and 10 bottom.

Regardless, that does help with sizing my smaller still or determining now if I even want one.

[Alchemist]

Well, hell. Ok, I can see I am going to be going back and forth with myself. Right this moment, I see the overkill of the 5L. And doing only 30L. 20l is too small, 40L (see below) is too big.

The way I am now seeing it, is if I am mainly doing scotch clones (not in Scotland after all ) and the occasional genever and am holding to 5-6 gallon (20-22L) washes, then I do a stripping run and collect 1/3 of that or about 7 L. I take that, add 40% feints (in later batches - see link below as to why I say this) or water, down to under 30% abv and end up with 11-12L. This I can hold until I have a pair for a spirit run, or maybe run as is. It would be just under 50% full, but viable I think. I can see saving up two batches. Just not 3-5. Regardless, the 5 L I was thinking about is just too small and a waste.

One quick question if you know the answer. Hydro-separation. It's a phase separation as I understand it. I totally get it if you have low wines and/or feints around, dilute to 25-27% and let it separate. You pull from the center for convenience and you leave the fusel oils behind. But...from here:

http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3 ... 2&start=15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Hydro separation is mentioned and talks about happening in the still. You would still get the phase separation, but is that good enough? i.e. would the separated compounds stay out of solution and out of the vapor stream, in the still, as your tails come off? My gut feeling says they come off since I don't see the difference of any run having the ABV drop at the end. Tails and fusel oils come off in tails...why you have to keep an eye on cloudiness.

[NZChris]

How long do you intend to age for?

If it is a couple of years or more, why would anyone not wait for a third ferment to finish?

I reckon that if the cellar is empty, a quicky using tight cuts to make something drinkable as white dog, or nuked, is best, quickly followed by the desired product for aging.

[Alchemist]

At least a couple years.

But I'm not following your train of thought. Could you connect the dots for me a little more?

[NZChris]

If I'm going to go to the trouble of making something that will be really nice in a couple of years, I don't like to be disappointed that I didn't make a decent amount, especially if it's just a matter of an extra month or so, a few dollars, treading an extra bucket full, whatever. I made all those mistakes when I was new at this game.

Plus, you can't actually make too much. What doesn't get drunk at two years of age, will be even better at three years and so on.

[Alchemist]

I can see where you are coming from....but that isn't where I am coming from. I like making things. Probably more than the end product. But I don't like to waste. So I would rather do more small batches. Basically so I can keep making and experimenting without ending up with more than I want.

I learned this with sake. I made a batch. Thought, wow, I can scale up, that was a bit of work for only 2 gallons. Made double the following year and had no incentive to make it again this year...which makes me a little sad as I don't get to make it.

The see no reason that whisky won't be the same way. And the opposite holds true. I would hate to 'put all this work in' now with extra batches only to find out in two years I have a whole bunch that isn't so great.

[NZChris]

I get your point. I also have a pot still that takes 1300ml max that I use for gins and experiments. I'm reluctant to go bigger because I like being able to tweak a recipe and make one bottle.

[thecroweater]

I can see where you are coming from....but that isn't where I am coming from. I like making things. Probably more than the end product. But I don't like to waste. So I would rather do more small batches. Basically so I can keep making and experimenting without ending up with more than I want.
I learned this with sake. I made a batch. Thought, wow, I can scale up, that was a bit of work for only 2 gallons. Made double the following year and had no incentive to make it again this year...which makes me a little sad as I don't get to make it.
The see no reason that whisky won't be the same way. And the opposite holds true. I would hate to 'put all this work in' now with extra batches only to find out in two years I have a whole bunch that isn't so great.

but you are intending to keep your little still aren't you? yeah i see your point but here is another angle , some libations are best made at a low ABV wash say 4 or 5% and then best aged for several years, drinks like Irish or Welsh styled whiskies for instance .these are better done in a bigger volume. Advise is advise, your choice but i wouldn't go with less than 40 ltrs

[humbledore]

Ok there are actually multiple factors involved here but I will try to unravel them.

Thank you for that knowledge bomb Myles! Informative.

[Alchemist]

Yes. Failed to say that. Great info bomb myles!

The 3 L still is just a loan. I'm trying to work out what if anything to replace it with. I now think I am set for 20l...but will look into the low abv brewing for some styles before deciding. My gut says those will be the rare runs, so don't buy for the exception.

The trick is whether to go with a smaller one for the extra experimenting I like to do. I tend to be a research fiend and I like to buy ONE time after determining what I need and not upgrade later. Hence the advise solicitations.

5 and 30?
5 and 20?
10 and 40?
10 and 20?
10 and 30
Just 20, 30 or 40?

So many options Hopefully a little more stewing and thinking and ready and it will start to fall into place. And frankly, I'm in no rush. I have the 3L for over the summer. I think I am planning to try an all grain smoked malt in it. 7 runs aren't too bad to play

[NZChris]

A still that can gulp down a whole ferment is very convenient. E.g. my 33l handles 5gal ferments, which is good because I've been getting my molasses in 5gal buckets that stack together when not in use as fermenters.

[NZChris]

Because the still you are looking at doesn't have an element, you shouldn't have to worry about running it dry doing a spirit run on a single strip in the same still.

If you are in the US, purchasing a still will get you listed with the TTB.

[Alchemist]

If you are in the US, purchasing a still will get you listed with the TTB.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but since I'm looking at purchasing from a vendor outside the USA (see op) that does not apply. TTB has no say over what someone outside has to submit to them. I'm just getting some a nice lawn ornament.

[NZChris]

Seeing as you like making things, build one. It'll cost less than your 'garden ornament'. Don't be sucked in by the website bling and blurb, those are basic pot stills you're looking at.

[Alchemist]

I've thought about it for years, but I have too many other irons in the fire. At this point in my life, if I want to pursue the craft, I have to buy a the equipment.

And don't worry. I'm not being taken in by the site in the least. I have always loved alembics and am thoroughly enjoying the beauty and function of the one on loan. So maybe the beauty of the still, but I found them per se.

Thanks for the input though. And who knows. Maybe I'll buy the larger of the two I'm considering and think again about making the smaller one.

[NZChris]

My small gin still is made out of a steamer set from a charity shop and a few new brass fittings. The copper tube for the Liebig had been lying around my workshop for years and all I had to buy for that was the PVC for the water jacket. Scrap copper goes in the basket. The total cost would have been less than the courier fees to have a new still delivered. I wouldn't call it a thing of great beauty, but it does the job and I enjoy using it.

If I wanted to go bigger, I would keep an eye on the charity shops for a bigger steamer.

[Alchemist]

Beauty is part of what I want It's not about just the price for me.

I have a 5 gallon copper still in need of repair...and just have no desire to fix it up. It would do the job, but I don't want it as it is.

To each their own.

[NZChris]

When stilling was illegal in NZ, I built my still so that it could be dismantled and the components spread around the workshop so that there was nothing I could show off to my mates and an inquisitive Mr Plod wouldn't find anything he could confiscate and convict me for. The penalty for getting caught was high back then.