The low down on Amyloglucosidase (Y amylase)

[thecroweater]

I almost always use Coppertun dry beer enzyme ei Y amylase ie amyloglucosidase to up my yield and dry my mash. I was always led to believe that it belongs in the ferment not in the saccharification mash but this article I lifted from WhiteLab would suggest otherwise. I have been reasonably satisfied with my results but if I can do better I sure would like to know about it. Anyone got an opinion on the best way to use Y amylase/amyloglucosidase

ULTRA-FERM - WLN4100
Amyloglucosidase for ethanol or dry beer production
Product Description -------------------------------------------------------------------
ULTRA-FERM is a liquid amyloglucosidase (highly concentrated) from
selected classical strain of Aspergillus niger.
Ethanol Production -------------------------------------------------------------------
After starch liquefaction by alpha-amylase, dextrins are hydrolysed in
glucose by amyloglucosidase, before alcoholic fermentation. Ethanol
production is faster and yield is higher. The recommended saccharification
temperature is 60°C.
A suitable substrate for saccharification is a liquefied starch with a dextrose
equivalent (DE) between 10 and 20. A higher DE than 20 might reduce
the saccharification efficiency. The concentration of the substrate will also
influence the saccharification efficiency. A concentration of 20-25% is a
general practice. ULTRA-FERM dosage, for given reaction time, depends
on the amount of glucose requested. It is usually recommended to add
400 ml per ton of starch for a fast hydrolysis. Possible pH range of use is
from 3.5 to 5.5 with optimal between 4.0 and 5.3.
Optimal temperature is 60°C. Amyloglucosidase activity is completely
destroyed when the saccharified liquor is held at 85°C for 10 minutes. As
an example: a yield of 94% glucose can be obtained after 40 hours with
36000 AGI per kg dry matter; after 72 hours with 17000 AGI/kg and
after 85 hours with 13000 AGI/kg, at pH 4.5 with temperature 60°C.
Beer Production ------------------------------------------------------
Brewers often want to produce light beers or dietetic beers. In these
cases the brewer wants a controlled or complete hydrolysis of starch and
dextrins to fermentable glucose. Traditional brewing methods permit
only 75 to 80% hydrolysis of starch present in the grain raw material.
ULTRA-FERM amyloglucosidase permits total hydrolysis of dextrins to
fermentable glucose, from all types of starch.
In the brewhouse, the recommended application dosage of ULTRA-FERM
is 0.8 to 3.2L per ton of starch. It can be added at the beginning
of the mash-in. In the fermenter, the recommended application
dosage is 1.5 to 2.5 milliliters per barrel of beer, applied as the fermenter is
being filled.
ULTRA-FERM optimal pH is between 3.5 and 5.5. Temperature should
not exceed 60°C. Amyloglucosidase activity is completely destroyed when
the wort is held at 85°C for 10 minutes

[scuba stiller]

That write up says it belongs in the mash.

[shadylane]

I've been adding it to the mash after the alpha has converted the starch into dextrins.
The instructions that came with the gluco said it would also work at fermenting temperatures, just slower.

[woodshed]

I add to the mash. Which means it also makes it into the fermenter where it continues to work very well.

[MDH]

Depends on the cost. I was just speaking to a distillery about this subject; some of these enzymes are extremely expensive. Usually if making Vodka, you are going for a cost effective solution. Standard alpha and gluco amylase step mashes have lower yields, but the enzymes can be purchased for almost nothing.

[thecroweater]

No mate it doesn't cost much, maybe $2 per 30 ltrs/6 gal

[carbohydratesn]

For a 45 gallon ferment, that would be $15. And that *is* kind of a lot.

[hawgwrench]

What would ya expect Amylase to do as far as taste? Any change? I use malted barley...works good but it's high as a Georgia pine. Sack of regular ole barley is a lot cheaper and would keep the flavor where I want it, provided the enzyme doesn't affect it. I'd never heard of enzyme's till a month or so ago...real interested with it. A pound or so (as I understand that does ALOT of mash) runs around 16 bucks. That $16 would be enough barley malt for 20 gal and that's it. I don't use much sugar if at all, so I gotta get a good conversion to end up with anything.

[scuba stiller]

PintoShine's Seb enzymes are $24.00 per 4 oz. kit. Four ounces is 118.28 ml. The enzymes cost about $0.20 per ml. Enzymes are applied at a rate of 0.36 ml per pound of grain.

Using the 45 gal. mash/ferment and assuming 2 lb. per gallon, the enzyme cost would be: 0.36 X 90 = 32.4 ml. for conversion. Then 32.4 X $0.20 = $6.48 cost for Seb enzymes to convert 90 lbs grain.

EDIT: But if you want to really save, try $30.00 for 16 oz. kit: 532.26 ml cost $0.056 per ml. then 32.4 X $0.056 = $1.83 to convert 90 lbs. of grain.

Woodshed's new enzymes are less expensive and more robust; which would reduce the cost of conversion even more. $6.48 or less is way better than I can source malted grains for converting starch and then breaking the long string sugars into fermentables.

[piratekev]

I am seeing the 16 oz kit at $60 not $30. Am I missing a deal somewhere?

[fqu8847]

I have contacted seb... the prices they quote are great but you are only allowed to buy in bulk. Do a search for "sebamyl L" on google. Should be in the first 7 results.

[woodshed]

Hit me up. Best done through a pm.

[thecroweater]

OK so did a little test mash to see how good my older malt was. Grist it to almost flour and added it to a kilo of wholemeal flour, hooley dooley it is no worries , sweet as honey. So I added some liquid glucoamylase once it reached it optimal temperature of 55'c (131'f) , thinned out and now has an almost glycerin type sweetness

[thecroweater]

So on another note, given this is enzyme is for breaking down long chain sugars, does anyone know how it would go dealing with unfermentable sugars in a molasses wash. To be honest I haven't really looked closely into what they consist of. The main reason for wanting to know is not so much to get another half a percent but a dryer wash should reduce foaming and puking.

[atarijedi]

So on another note, given this is enzyme is for breaking down long chain sugars, does anyone know how it would go dealing with unfermentable sugars in a molasses wash. To be honest I haven't really looked closely into what they consist of. The main reason for wanting to know is not so much to get another half a percent but a dryer wash should reduce foaming and puking.

Glucoamylase only breaks a-1,4 bonded glucose units down into individual glucose units, and has the ability to break a-1,6 bonded branches like in amylopectin (major component of starch). So really, it depends on what those unfermentable sugars are in the molasses. If they aren't a-1,4 bonded glucose units, or limit-dextrins (which I doubt), than there is nothing glucoamylase will do.

However, I was just reading about unfermentable sugars in molasses, which is why your comment caught my eye. One of the more prevalent unfermentable sugars is a monosaccharide called allulose, there doesn't seem to be an enzyme that can take care of it though that I've been able to find, and all the studies I've read on unfermentable sugars seem to indicate that they are of such a low number, that no one really tries to do anything about it. So we are out of luck on that one.

That said, saccharomyces yeast don't release proteases to break down proteins, and proteins in the wash will be a major creator of foaming and puking, more so than any residual sugars. You could try adding a protease enzyme after fermenting, it will break down all the other enzymes that are present, should help some. Something to look into.

[HDNB]

try these guys. 14 bux for a quart. does about 1250kg of grain (2500 lb)

the temp is different for the gluco than SEB, so pay attention. it works at higher, but i add some at lower temp too since it is cheap as guts.

https://ferm-solutions.net/product/ga-150-enzyme/