VM path is not working

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VM path is not working

Post by lampshade »

My still is producing no VM product. It does produce LM product.

Is there a way to start (coax) the ethanol vapor to go down the VM path. It seems to me, that for ethanol vapor to travel down the VM path, instead of the reflux path, that some back pressure must be introduced into the reflux path. Maybe, for most successful VM stills, that that back pressure is introduced by the falling reflux liquid. On the other hand, a powerful reflux condenser might introduce a vacuum that keeps the ethanol vapor rising into it. If that is the case, maybe VM action can be started by temporarily shutting down the reflux condenser (stop the cooling water).

I think once it is started, some of the ethanol vapor will continue down the VM path due to a chimney effect.

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Re: VM path is not working

Post by DAD300 »

I don't see anything real obvious...The Thermometer could be acting as a condenser/heat sink and blocking the path some.

What does the thermo read when the LM is functioning?

But I have an experiment for you.

Make sure the VM is open, Close the LM and stop the water to the Reflux Condenser.

The open VM will now be the only path available and in pot still mode.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by lampshade »

DAD300 wrote: But I have an experiment for you.

Make sure the VM is open, Close the LM and stop the water to the Reflux Condenser.

The open VM will now be the only path available and in pot still mode.
OK, I will buy some cheap vodka tomorrow and give your experiment a try. Thanks. :D
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by still_stirrin »

Lampshade,

Is your reflux condenser in the 2" cross tube? I wonder if the vapor speed slowdown due to the diameter change from 1" to 2" is causing the static pressure change to initiate condensation and drawing in the vapor instead of the VM path. How well stuffed is that vapor path? Scrubbies?

Since the vapor will prefer the "path of least resistance" and if the reflux condenser has a lower static pressure, it very likely is the path of least resistance.

Do you get a lot of pooling liquid in your LM branch, especially if the LM valve is closed?

I think one way resolve your problem woul be to replace the 1" tee with a 2" tee and reduce to 1" on either branch. That would maintain the higher vapor flow coming up the column and splitting that between the LM and VM paths.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by DAD300 »

I perceived the Reflux Condenser is only in the LM Branch.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by lampshade »

DAD300 wrote:I perceived the Reflux Condenser is only in the LM Branch.
Yes, you are correct. But I need to modify that.

The reflux condenser feeds a tube that inserts the reflux into the main column. The LM valve is below that tube. If the LM valve is closed, then all of the reflux flows back into the main column. If the LM valve is fully open, then none of the reflux flows into the main column; instead, all of the reflux flows out of the LM path. This means that the LM valve cannot shut down the reflux condenser. Instead, when the VM valve is fully open, then 1/2 of the ethanol vapor goes to the reflux condenser and 1/2 of the ethanol vapor goes to the VM path (well, at least in theory). This results in a reflux ratio of 0.5:0.5 = 1:1 (in theory) when the LM valve is closed. Likewise, if the VM valve is half open and LM valve is fully closed, then the reflux ratio is 0.75:0.25 = 3:1.

Professor Rad, we desperately need your sage advice. :wave:
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by Kegg_jam »

Skow's combo head is the closest thing I've seen that looks kinda like yours.

His valve setup is what you need.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by skow69 »

My valving works essentially the same as yours.
test head.jpg
The advantage of that design is that it makes it almost impossible to not get a 50-50 vapor split. You may have biased it a little toward the LM side by going directly up to 2" but that shouldn't cause your symptoms. At the worst that would give you a reflux ratio of 5:1, which would certainly be frustrating, but wouldn't shut off the VM completely.

The only time I have any trouble getting VM output is when I forget to turn on the water to the product condenser. Your PC appears to be a double walled liebig. Is that right? Are you sure it's working as intended? Does it feel cold when you run water through it?

What is the 2" vertical piece after the reflux condenser?

I will be interested to see the results of DAD's experiment. You will need to plug the vent also (be sure the VM valve is open).
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by skow69 »

Also feel the pipes on the VM side. That will tell you how far the vapor is going. It should be hot all the way to the product condenser.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by Danespirit »

Lampshade..does your reflux returnline have a little upwards bend like a L (inside the column) ?

You should make sure nothing is blocking the part before or after the valve, of course you would already have checked that.. :wink:
A suggested, try blocking the LM part (also the vent to atmosphere) and have the VM valve fully opened.
It should be able to give you a perfect vaporsplit with a 50/50 ratio.
You placement of the LM valve, gives you no control of the reflux...just a LM takeoff.
I really don't see any obvious design flaws visible from outside, that could cause failure..
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by Bushman »

Danespirit wrote:Lampshade..does your reflux returnline have a little upwards bend like a L (inside the column) ?

You should make sure nothing is blocking the part before or after the valve, of course you would already have checked that.. :wink:
A suggested, try blocking the LM part (also the vent to atmosphere) and have the VM valve fully opened.
It should be able to give you a perfect vaporsplit with a 50/50 ratio.
You placement of the LM valve, gives you no control of the reflux...just a LM takeoff.
I really don't see any obvious design flaws visible from outside, that could cause failure..
I would be careful with this practice as if you think the VM is open and it's not you have an unsafe situation. If your going to block the vent do so with a release valve.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by still_stirrin »

Looking closer at your setup Lampshade, I see that your VM branch necks down to 1/2", or even smaller before running to the Liebig product condenser. On the other hand, your reflux condenser (Jackson crossflow) is more open to vapor flow (less restrictive) than the vapor split tee (1") such that the path of least resistance is the LM path.

With the vapor restriction through the VM valve and pipe size reduction out of that valve, the vapor prefers to flow to the LM side.

I suggest reducing restrictions in your VM path.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by still_stirrin »

Another possibility to correct operation would be to replace the vapor split tee with a 3-way valve, one that would select either the LM path or the VM path for the rising vapors. That way you could run the LM valve and reflux while compressing and pulling off your heads. Then switch to pseudo-VM production through the hearts and tails, ala pot still operation.

But, without an open vent in the still head, you MUST keep the VM valve open. (potentially dangerous)

One disadvantage with a 3-way valve is that the flow is diverted as "either/or" but not proportional. So, your reflux condenser would be offline if the full flow was directed towards the vapor path.

This setup would be more of a LM/pot still instead of a LM/VM reflux setup. Maybe not what you really want.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by Danespirit »

Bushman wrote:
Danespirit wrote:Lampshade..does your reflux returnline have a little upwards bend like a L (inside the column) ?

You should make sure nothing is blocking the part before or after the valve, of course you would already have checked that.. :wink:
A suggested, try blocking the LM part (also the vent to atmosphere) and have the VM valve fully opened.
It should be able to give you a perfect vaporsplit with a 50/50 ratio.
You placement of the LM valve, gives you no control of the reflux...just a LM takeoff.
I really don't see any obvious design flaws visible from outside, that could cause failure..
I would be careful with this practice as if you think the VM is open and it's not you have an unsafe situation. If your going to block the vent do so with a release valve.
I assume Lampshade won't solder it, as it is only temporary.
But i should have been more accurate on the statement..i meant with something like a little ball of flourpaste.
It wouldn't be dangerous if pressure should occur and just pop out from the vent.
Anyhow you got a good point there, as safety always should have top priority.

Lampshade...do you run some kind of a coldfinger inside of that Liebig?
Or does the pipe go all the way down and then into the Liebig?
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by Brutal »

Your light fixture looks kinda like your hat in your avatar.

At the tee vapor can either travel to the left a few inches to reach a no pressure chamber, or it can turn right. To turn right there is resistance from air. Your still is full of just regular ambient air until that air is displaced by vapor. The air on the VM path must be forced out through 5 90 degree turns, 4 of which are in a reduced diameter tube. If you take that whole right side off as an assembly and blow through it you will see what I mean. The resistance is much more than the left (LM) side, which would have the resistance of blowing through a few inches of 1"copper pipe.

If the resistance for each path is exactly equal you will get a 50/50 split of flow. If it's different enough that one side does not have enough resistance to build the pressure to overcome the resistance on the other than all will flow to the easiest path.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by still_stirrin »

Your words sound much better than mine, Brutal. But you and I are thinkin' alike. Vapor flows where the resistance is least, given the option to choose between the two.

On my combo head, I have similar sized takeoffs, with (nearly) equal flow paths (length & fitting losses). Neither is more favorable than the other, so the flow can actually accomplish nearly a 50/50 split (although I haven't actually measured the differential performance). All I know is that it works and I don't have to persuade the vapor to flow into the VM branch.

Lampshade, if you bring your VM valve back to the horizontal and eliminate the piping reductions to your Liebig, do you think that might make the vapor path more inviting?
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by still_stirrin »

Brutal wrote:Your light fixture looks kinda like your hat in your avatar...
Mods forthcoming?
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by lampshade »

I am still waiting to try the suggested experiment due to family commitments. However, I did find the following at engineering.com when I did a google search on "condenser vacuum".
How is a vacuum created in a Main Condenser when it comes to power plant operation. Without the use of air ejectors or Vacuum pumps.

Reply 1: Remember what happens in a condenser. Energy is lost from the fluid stream. The fluid changes from a gas to a liquid (condenses). Since liquids take up less volume as the same mass of a gas at when the phase changes a vacuum must be created which will draw in more gas to be cooled.

Reply 2: Steam when condensed into water reduces in volume drastically at the order of thosands depending upon the pressure existing inside the condenser, e.g. around 14500 times at 0.1 bar. This enormous reduction in volume creates the vacuum inside the condenser.
To me, this means that once condensation starts, vapor no longer travels the path of least resistance but is drawn by the condensation vacuum. The individual reflux and product vacuums might be controlled by the amount of cooling provided to the respective condensers.

A corroborating observation: Typically, the reflux condenser cooling water is provided by the water the first flows through the product liebig. This means that the liebig is provided with more cooling than is the reflux condenser. And so the liebig vacuum may then be greater than the reflux vacuum.

If my postulation is correct, then the theory behind VM operation might need to be updated.
Last edited by lampshade on Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:18 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by lampshade »

still_stirrin wrote:
Brutal wrote:Your light fixture looks kinda like your hat in your avatar...
Mods forthcoming?
You're absolutely correct about the similarity on my avatar with my kitchen lamp fixture. :clap:
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by lampshade »

Danespirit wrote:
Bushman wrote:
Danespirit wrote:Lampshade..does your reflux returnline have a little upwards bend like a L (inside the column) ?
yes.. but if my reflux return line has a ineffective upward bend, then it is possible that all of the ethanol vapor is going up the reflux return line. If that is true, then there would be no vapor to feed the VM path. Ugh

Lampshade...do you run some kind of a coldfinger inside of that Liebig?
Or does the pipe go all the way down and then into the Liebig?
Yes, I have a cold finger -- wrapped in a coil -- in my reflux condenser, which is in the horizontal pipe on the left side of the picture
Last edited by lampshade on Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by lampshade »

Someone asked about the temperature reading on the thermometer that is placed in the VM branch. Yes, the thermometer reads the normal temperatures that one would expect. However, since no vapor appears to be flowing in the VM branch, I suspect that the temperature is not vapor temperature, but copper pipe temperature.

Another experiment might be to lower the VM temperature by wrapping the VM tube with ice. This might cause condensation which in turn might prime the VM branch. If that does work, I could limp-along with that workaround until I make permanent changes to my combo head (and replace the triple-walled liebig with a conventional liebig).
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by Kegg_jam »

Is it possible that the expanding pipe size on the LM side is causing an imbalance of vapor at the Tee?

For lack of the proper terms, maybe the vapor just 'wants' to go the easier route into the larger pipe and all of the vapor is being condensed and sent back as reflux. Plus the fact that the thermo is further reducing the pipe size of the VM side.

Just an idea I had bouncing around. I could be way off.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by lampshade »

Yes, that is a possibility. One of my planned experiments is to wrap the cold finger with lots of copper mesh at the point of the cold finger where it intersects the input tube. Hopefully this will provide resistance to the vapor where the vapor enters the cross-flow reflux condenser.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by Brutal »

If your reflux condenser was raised or the path to VM takeoff was lowered, it would allow the relatively heavy vapor to push downhill into it. You could still control the flow to VM with your valve.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by skow69 »

I'm curious, Lampshade. What was your theory or motivation for building that configuration? When I put the flat tee on top of the column my intention was to ensure the lowest possible minimum reflux ratio for the VM. But you have done just about everything possible to defeat that effect.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by Tokoroa_Shiner »

I think the problem is the 2" - 1" reduced on the LM side. As the vapour enters the larger chamber created by the 2", the reduction in pressure will be causing a slight vacuum, making it the path with the least resistance. Drawing more vapour and not allowing any to go to the VM side. You can see that the only difference between yours and skows is that his is the same diameter pipe all through both sides.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by lampshade »

skow69 wrote:I'm curious, Lampshade. What was your theory or motivation for building that configuration? When I put the flat tee on top of the column my intention was to ensure the lowest possible minimum reflux ratio for the VM. But you have done just about everything possible to defeat that effect.
I chose this configuration so that I could accurately measure reflux ratio. But I fear I got too cute.
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by Danespirit »

lampshade wrote:I am still waiting to try the suggested experiment due to family commitments. However, I did find the following at engineering.com when I did a google search on "condenser vacuum".
How is a vacuum created in a Main Condenser when it comes to power plant operation. Without the use of air ejectors or Vacuum pumps.

Reply 1: Remember what happens in a condenser. Energy is lost from the fluid stream. The fluid changes from a gas to a liquid (condenses). Since liquids take up less volume as the same mass of a gas at when the phase changes a vacuum must be created which will draw in more gas to be cooled.

Reply 2: Steam when condensed into water reduces in volume drastically at the order of thosands depending upon the pressure existing inside the condenser, e.g. around 14500 times at 0.1 bar. This enormous reduction in volume creates the vacuum inside the condenser.
To me, this means that once condensation starts, vapor no longer travels the path of least resistance but is drawn by the condensation vacuum. The individual reflux and product vacuums might be controlled by the amount of cooling provided to the respective condensers.

A corroborating observation: Typically, the reflux condenser cooling water is provided by the water the first flows through the product liebig. This means that the liebig is provided with more cooling than is the reflux condenser. And so the liebig vacuum may then be greater than the reflux vacuum.

If my postulation is correct, then the theory behind VM operation might need to be updated.
Lampshade..i stated there is no such thing a a vacuum in a open to atmosphere device (but that was on the other thread and got lost on this new one).
In a power plant you have a closed and controlled system (hopefully or you got a problem,especially on a nuclear plant).
In a open to atmosphere device, as our still, we have at least ONE opening (potstill) and TWO (refluxstills are supposed to have a vent).
I will try to explain what my take on the VM still is in the following post.
I might get flamed at, get feathers and tar..and escorted out of the city, but i will still give it a try. 8)
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by Danespirit »

Common assumption is that a VM still works with the principle of ethanol will “sink into the produccondenser”.
The correct term should be “ alcohol enriched vapour is heavier than atmospheric air”. That’s the reason why some had more or less dramatic experiences when vapor hits their burner.
Following statement is my point of view, others may have a different opinion.

Water has a covalent bond of oxygen and hydrogen. The simple construction of the watermolecule (H2O), results in watermolecules can be tighter packed together than a typical ethanolmolecule (CH3CH2OH or C2H5OH) as ethanol also contains carbon atoms.
Therefore more watermolecules can be placed at a given space than ethanolmolecules, thus the lower density of ethanol.
We still agree on one ethanolmolecule is heavier than one watermolecule! The space that each molecule will fill is the key to all this, remember the SG 0,78 to 1,0 for 1 cm3.
As we heat our VM column, a separation of the different molecules that the vapor contains take place. A well known fact is that the higher boilingpoint , the lower in the column molecules will be. So some of the unwanted stuff will start to rise early in this process, that’s the reason we have foreshots. Then ethanol starts to boil off. Unfortunatly it will take some of the water with it on it’s way up the column. The explanation for this are the boilingpoints of water and ethanol are close 78,3C to 100C and..ethanol is hydroscopic (it loves water). Which is also the reason why we can’t distill higher than azeotropic conditions (95,6 ethanol by mass, NOT alcohol by volume ,ABV) under normal atmospheric pressure. Furthermore ethanol is a solvent, this means it reduces the surface tension on water. Now we can see why alcohols and water are fully miscible. We can also understand why we can’t just heat until 78,3C and all the ethanol magical draws off the still. Do you see were we get ?
So a mixture of water and ethanol is on it’s way up the column. We are still not violating any laws of nature here, and thermodynamics does it’s work. We know for a fact that warmer gasses will ascent (any hotair ballon proves that). Before that mix meets the refluxcondenser anyway, it has to displace the gasses that can’t be condensed in our still, the air. The constructor of this apparatus have seen that coming and placed a ventilation hole or tube at the top of that still. Just one more reason for that hole. There will be temperature fluctuations, that indicates things are about to happen in there.
As the vapormix rises it meets a cold surface (our refluxcondenser) now comes the point: Water will sustain more heatenergy than ethanol, thus the ethanol condenses faster than water and falls back down. Because ethanol by now has made a phase change and turned into liquid again (liquid drops, vapor rises) So here we have it…it’s not because ethanol is heavier, it’s because it gives off it’s energy faster than water. In other words,the phase change happens quicker for ethanol than water and so it enriches ascending vapor.Of course water also condenses and falls back the column. Now comes the point were we want to establish equilibrium in order to stack the vapors according to their boilingpoints. In this whole process of condensing and reboiling (as the NOW liquid hits the packing), the column establishes a temperature gradient dividing vapor according to their specific gravity. BUT…as watervapor contains more energy than all other vapor in the column it stays longer at the top, creating a “bufferzone” in the uppermost part. Still not violating any nature given laws we can now see, why we don’t get any output in a “water only” run on a VM still. It takes more energy to vaporize water than any other alcohol. The vapor MUST contain alcohol for this system to work. We also see why there is a typical auto shut off at the end of a run, as the alcohol is depleted and composition of the mix gets inferior. We can also understand why steamdistillation works…ethanol being heated by the heatenergy of water (steam).
There are other things to influence the vapor and Bernoullis law is one of the important factors. The simple law of energy preservation and pressure, makes a plane fly and a VM still work. Reynolds numbers also play a role. As we want a laminar flow through the column and a turbular flow (to cause whirl and eddys) before the takeoff point. Going much further into those well proven and empirical tested subjects, would perhaps blow the frame of theorys for hobbydistillation. Everyone however could take a look at some videos on youtube, that explains very good what goes on when we talk laminar vs. turbular flow and the transition that happens in between. Several threads in here are scratching those subjects too, but here is a link to underline my statement and FYI : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZYnewBWUoc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
A little resume on it would be that vapor till a certain degree can be compared with liquid. We just have to remember vapor (gasses) can be compressed, liquid can’t. That said we can compare a VM branch to a Y-piece used by the firedepartment, it divides the water coming from the main tube into two other connections. The water will now divide according to the path given for it and the speed will rise or lower with the diameter of the tube decreasing or increasing. Another fact we should be aware about is nature is lazy, it won’t use more energy than necessary. This means liquid and vapor will always take the easy way. That fact shows us how important correct dimensions on the takeoff branch are. We can’t expect a reasonable output with a 15 mm takeoff on a 2” column. A respectable distiller claims to have a good output with only 10 mm the vapor can pass through. I have no reason to question the mans credibility or competence ( and I certainly won’t). However he can’t change laws of nature and this could not be done without modifications above the takeoff, forcing vapor to take that path. Common consensus seems to be a equal dimensioned tee, is the way to go. This provides possible 1:1 refluxratio, as the amount of reflux depends on the ratio of “smallest crosssectional area before the productcondenser (usually the valve) and the path to refluxcondenser. Take a 2”x2”x2” tee and you got a 50/50 vaporsplit (that’s what a VM is..a vaporsplitter). Now narrow the outlet to 1”, it will change the whole setup as you now have a cross sectional areal 4 times smaller, throtteling output.
I think there is also a need for debunking an old myth about “heads compression” in a VM still. This is pure nonsense, as we can not compress anything in a system that is supposed to be open to atmosphere two different places in the construction! What we CAN talk about, is “heads concentration” as we concentrate those heads to the uppermost point in the still on smallest possible space. Not to dig into semantics, but a compression can only take place when there is pressure above atmospheric. Just that we don’t want anywhere in our still, thus the vent at top. Another common misconception might as well be killed here. There is no such thing as “sucktion in the productcondenser” or “chimney effect downwards the productcondenser”. Why is it that people want to see a vacuum or underpressure in a system open to atmosphere? Any “drag” downwards, would immediately be equalized by vapor produced in the boiler. And that boiler will give us just short of 46 L vapor pr minute for each KW that is converted into heat. The massive amount of vapor makes one understand that cross sectional areal of the column is very important. If you heat a tiny column of 1” with 3 KW, you will soon now what flooding means.
Those were some thoughts about a VM and it’s design, if I missed anything or any statement is not valid, please comment. After all we are pursuing the same goal…to understand distillation and stilldesigns better.
You still awake? :eugeek:
HookLine
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Re: VM path is not working

Post by HookLine »

Along the lines of what some others have suggested, my first guess would be you have an imbalance in the resistance to vapour flow through the two paths.

Try filling the section between the blue lines with a bit of scrubber/mesh to add a bit of back pressure in that arm:
Lampshade still test.jpg
If that improves it, then a possible permanent solution is to insert a partial restriction into the 1" section (near the yellow line). Small piece of copper plate soldered in should do it. Enough to reduce the cross-sectional-area by about a third, no more.
Lampshade still mod.jpg
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