Running into trouble converting using enzymes with wheat.

[Abattoir]

Hey everyone, long time lurker--first time poster.

I have previously used malts with wheat and had success. Now I'm trying to
use enzymes and I'm having a very tough time converting.

I have an all electric distillery which is one of the reasons I use wheat
due to not having to boil it like corn.

Adding 5 gallons of boiling water to 10 pounds of hard red wheat ground to
flour in my mash tun, temps end up around 180 degrees and I let them cool
to 170 before adding enzymes. I've tried SEBamyl BAL with pH at the
required range followed up with SEB Flo and a gluco (as temps drop) with
basically a completely worthless yield and no real visible conversion.

The water is city water, very hard and initial pH is around 8, i use citric
acid to adjust the pH.
I've tried holding temperature for a few hours, adding way more enzyme than
is reasonable and I still don't get any decent liquefaction and starch test
is instant black.
I've tried a lot of agitation, and occasional agitation.

Any help would be great!

[S-Cackalacky]

Are you also using something like SEBstar HTL? It's my understanding that the SEBamyl only works on long chains that have already been converted from starch. I use SEBamyl GL and the recommended temp is something like 86 to 149 dF with a fairly low PH.

Here's a chart that another member (?) put together for the enzymes sold by enzemash.com:

SEBstar HTL - 0.36ml/lb (0.8ml/kg) - pH 5.6-6.5 - 122-194F (50-90C)
SEBamyl GL - 0.36ml/lb (0.8ml/kg) - pH 2.8-5.5 - 86-149F (30-65C)
SEBflo TL - 0.23ml/lb (0.5ml/kg) - pH 4.0-6.5 - 86-140F (30-60C)

[Abattoir]

Are you also using something like SEBstar HTL? It's my understanding that the SEBamyl only works on long chains that have already been converted from starch. I use SEBamyl GL and the recommended temp is something like 86 to 149 dF with a fairly low PH.

Here's a chart that another member (?) put together for the enzymes sold by enzemash.com:

SEBstar HTL 0.36ml/lb (0.8ml/kg) pH 5.6-6.5 122-194F (50-90C)
SEBamyl GL 0.36ml/lb (0.8ml/kg) pH 2.8-5.5 86-149F (30-65C)
SEBflo TL 0.23ml/lb (0.5ml/kg) pH 4.0-6.5 86-140F (30-60C)

Thanks, I do not use the HTL because it's hard to get and hold those temps. SEBamyl GL is the gluco I'm using, and I've heard it takes a long time to work, even after my fermentation is complete I let it sit for a few days just in case the GL is still doing it's thing. I think my last wash was at about 5% ABV.

[still_stirrin]

Abattoir,

What about working upward with the temperatures? I haven't brewed with unmalted wheat, but I typically start with the protein rest (120-125F) then step up to the beta rest (140-148F). Finally, I mash out at 155-160F to finish the conversion. Stepping upward reduces the long chains to short chain starches so the enzymes can get them converted better (faster). Also, the upward steps promotes the enzyme activity in sequence the enzymes prefer.

I know its too late for this mash to do it this way, but future all-wheat mashes would likely be more successful...and you won't need as much of the expensive liquid enzymes to get you through.
ss

[S-Cackalacky]

Are you also using something like SEBstar HTL? It's my understanding that the SEBamyl only works on long chains that have already been converted from starch. I use SEBamyl GL and the recommended temp is something like 86 to 149 dF with a fairly low PH.

Here's a chart that another member (?) put together for the enzymes sold by enzemash.com:

SEBstar HTL 0.36ml/lb (0.8ml/kg) pH 5.6-6.5 122-194F (50-90C)
SEBamyl GL 0.36ml/lb (0.8ml/kg) pH 2.8-5.5 86-149F (30-65C)
SEBflo TL 0.23ml/lb (0.5ml/kg) pH 4.0-6.5 86-140F (30-60C)

Thanks, I do not use the HTL because it's hard to get and hold those temps. SEBamyl GL is the gluco I'm using, and I've heard it takes a long time to work, even after my fermentation is complete I let it sit for a few days just in case the GL is still doing it's thing. I think my last wash was at about 5% ABV.

I only just started using these, but it's my understanding that you need both. For my first experience, I used a no-boil (steeping) method. Raw grains to which I added 212 dF strike water. The temp immediately went down to just under 195 dF. I added the SEBstar HTL while stirring, covered the fermenter and wrapped it with a towel. Couple of hours later the temp had dropped to 150 dF. I then adjusted the PH and added the SEBamyl GL, covered and allowed the wort to cool overnight. An iodine test showed complete conversion and with 7.5 lbs of grain per 4 gallons of water, the OG was at 1.055.

I would suggest that, if you can't find the SEBstar HTL, look for some other way to save your mash. Either use something like alpha amylase, or malted grain. I don't think the SEBamyl GL by itself will ever get you there.

[humbledore]

Confusingly, the SEBstar is the alpha amylase equivalent, and the SEBamyl is the gluco amylase equivalent. So yes, you need the SEBstar at or below 190F to start the starches breaking down. I actually had to relabel my bottles. They should be called SEB Alpha and SEB Gluco. EDIT: and SC is right, you could just use standard alpha amylase enzyme at normal mash temps, and gluco below that.

[humbledore]

I've never done this with un-malted grains other than corn. Not sure you need to be at 190F for wheat. Wouldn't normal mash temps work just fine? Corn is a special case.

[greggn]

>temps end up around 180 degrees and I let them cool to 170 before adding enzymes.

170F is the very high-end temp for SEBamyl BAL so it's possible that if your thermometer is off by just a bit you may have denatured the alpha and therefore didn't convert your starches.

FWIW, I've been using the SEB enzymes with wheat for the last few months and have had great success (without even paying much attention to the pH) by simply adding the HTL and GL at their recommended optimum temps. In fact, conversions are efficient enough that I no longer bother with overnight gluco rests ... 2 hr alpha and 4 hr gluco periods have been sufficient.

[midlife-u-turn]

>temps end up around 180 degrees and I let them cool to 170 before adding enzymes.

170F is the very high-end temp for SEBamyl BAL so it's possible that if your thermometer is off by just a bit you may have denatured the alpha and therefore didn't convert your starches.

FWIW, I've been using the SEB enzymes with wheat for the last few months and have had great success (without even paying much attention to the pH) by simply adding the HTL and GL at their recommended optimum temps. In fact, conversions are efficient enough that I no longer bother with overnight gluco rests ... 2 hr alpha and 4 hr gluco periods have been sufficient.

Are you using red wheat?
No malted grains?
I assume you get a good tasting product or you wouldn't be doing it?
In a month or two I may have access to a lot of wheat just curious of your methods/results.
Thanks

[humbledore]

Am I missing something? What is SEBamyl BAL? SEBstar HTL is good to190F.

Edit: OK never mind. I found it.


SEBAmyl BAL 100

Medium temperature alpha-amylase that can liquefy grain starch around 140-170°F.  Ideal for mashing with raw grains that gelatinize more easily (Wheat, Barley, Rye), 

[greggn]

>Are you using red wheat?

Yes, both milled and flaked.

>No malted grains?

Initially I did but I got more consistent conversions using enzymes. An added bonus is that I no longer experience infections in my mashes since I'm leveraging the higher working temperatures of the enzymes.

>I assume you get a good tasting product or you wouldn't be doing it?

I'm making wheat vodka and, yes, I can taste the influence the wheat brings to the finished product. Back when I used to purchase vodka, my choice was Ketel One which is distilled from wheat ... so that's my target.

>In a month or two I may have access to a lot of wheat just curious of your methods/results.

My workflow is pretty straightforward. Heat water to 200F and dump in the grain, wait for it to cool to 185F and add the HTL. Stir every 10 - 15 minutes for 2 hours. I keep the pot wrapped with a blanket for the first hour and then unwrap for the second hour after which the temp has usually dropped below 150F. At 140F I add the GL, re-wrap in the blanket, and stir every 15 - 20 minutes for the next 4 hours.

I prefer to ferment off the grain, so I do all the above using a grain bag. After the GL rest I lift and drain the bag, squeeze, and do casual sparge. Top it off with cold water to my final volume and by that time it's right at pitch temperature. A minute aerating with O2 and then I pitch yeast.

[midlife-u-turn]

>Are you using red wheat?

Yes, both milled and flaked.

>No malted grains?

Initially I did but I got more consistent conversions using enzymes. An added bonus is that I no longer experience infections in my mashes since I'm leveraging the higher working temperatures of the enzymes.

>I assume you get a good tasting product or you wouldn't be doing it?

I'm making wheat vodka and, yes, I can taste the influence the wheat brings to the finished product. Back when I used to purchase vodka, my choice was Ketel One which is distilled from wheat ... so that's my target.

>In a month or two I may have access to a lot of wheat just curious of your methods/results.

My workflow is pretty straightforward. Heat water to 200F and dump in the grain, wait for it to cool to 185F and add the HTL. Stir every 10 - 15 minutes for 2 hours. I keep the pot wrapped with a blanket for the first hour and then unwrap for the second hour after which the temp has usually dropped below 150F. At 140F I add the GL, re-wrap in the blanket, and stir every 15 - 20 minutes for the next 4 hours.

I prefer to ferment off the grain, so I do all the above using a grain bag. After the GL rest I lift and drain the bag, squeeze, and do casual sparge. Top it off with cold water to my final volume and by that time it's right at pitch temperature. A minute aerating with O2 and then I pitch yeast.

Great! Appreciate the detailed response. I'll give it a try.

[BoomTown]

Are you also using something like SEBstar HTL? It's my understanding that the SEBamyl only works on long chains that have already been converted from starch. I use SEBamyl GL and the recommended temp is something like 86 to 149 dF with a fairly low PH.

Here's a chart that another member (?) put together for the enzymes sold by enzemash.com:

SEBstar HTL 0.36ml/lb (0.8ml/kg) pH 5.6-6.5 122-194F (50-90C)
SEBamyl GL 0.36ml/lb (0.8ml/kg) pH 2.8-5.5 86-149F (30-65C)
SEBflo TL 0.23ml/lb (0.5ml/kg) pH 4.0-6.5 86-140F (30-60C)

Thanks,.

Nothing to add here, just want to watch this thread closely...better yield potential. Might want to know if anyone is using White winter wheat rather than the Hard Red? If so, is the yield different? In which directions is it different? and do the different enzyme treatments work differently for the different wheat ?

[greggn]

>Might want to know if anyone is using White winter wheat rather than the Hard Red?

I've only used Red Wheat since I'm running a reflux column and assumed that White would contribute more mouthfeel than actual flavor.