Can moldy wheat be mashed and fermented

[BoomTown]

A farmer friend tells me that the wheat coming off his filed has been infected by some sort of mold. Don't know what mold

He'll have several tons of it.

What would the implication of mashing, fermenting and distilling using molded wheat?

[jedneck]

I have had traces of mold on my wheat malt before. I used it and havet noticed any off tastes but it wasn't much mold and it was a small part of the bill.

[jedneck]

Some one did a post on malting corn that used hydrogen peroxide in the steep water to help fight mold. Maybe do the same to rinse the mold off.
I would be a shame to not be able to use all that wheat. I like wheat.

[kiwi Bruce]

Be very careful using anything with mold. All molds produce alkaloids, some are helpful like penicillin, most are harmless, but some are very toxic and can cause liver failure. My advice, if you don't know what the mold is, don't use it. And yes:- I do believe the alkaloids could distill over. Need a Bio-chemist to confirm that though. Kiwi Bruce

[kiwi Bruce]

This is from Wikipedia :- A mycotoxin (from Greek μύκης (mykes, mukos) "fungus" and τοξικόν (toxikon) "poison") is a toxic secondary metabolite produced by organisms of the fungi kingdom, commonly known as molds. The term 'mycotoxin' is usually reserved for the toxic chemical products produced by fungi that readily colonize crops. One mold species may produce many different mycotoxins, and the same mycotoxin may be produced by several species.

[BoomTown]

Be very careful using anything with mold. All molds produce alkaloids, some are helpful like penicillin, most are harmless, but some are very toxic and can cause liver failure. My advice, if you don't know what the mold is, don't use it. And yes:- I do believe the alkaloids could distill over. Need a Bio-chemist to confirm that though. Kiwi Bruce

Good advice Bruce. thanks Jed, I'll check this out.

[BoomTown]

Years back, I read that during in dark/middle ages, wheat would get moldy being in storage, but the villagers, and nobles, not having anything else to eat, would use it anyway. Consequence was that sometime whole villages would be tripping out, hallucinating for weeks, months on end. The author suggests that this wasn't uncommon and may be the basis for the many legends about witches, vampires, and other black legends. Wish I could remember where I read that, and if there is any truth to it.

[bearriver]

+1 Boom

Most infamously known is ergotism, or ergotoxicosis. It is a slow progressing disease spread by eating infected grains, which often was rye. Apparently very early on monks had developed high success rates of treating the disease, thus renaming it Saint Anthony's Fire. Today it is cured with a simple injection. When it pops up in modern countries like the US, it is usually the side effect of treating another disease with medicine derived from ergot. Go figure... Ergotism is also heavily implicated as a instigator during the witchcraft trials in Salem. People literally thought witches had cast a spell on the community thus causing the illness.

Edit: The Beef Cattle Research Council in Canada says this on their website: "The ethanol distillation process also has the potential to concentrate ergot alkaloids. While ethanol plants do have ergot limits, ensure that dried distiller’s grains (DDGS) made from wheat are ergot free."

Yikes...

Edit #3: Infected batches are screened. Larger ergot stays behind while the grain "berries" being smaller, pass onto the processing line. Food for thought...

I really would like to see Coyote's opinion on this.

[BoomTown]

+1 Boom

Most infamously known is ergotism, or ergotoxicosis. It is a slow progressing disease spread by eating infected rye grain. Apparently very early on, monks had developed a high success rates of treating the disease, thus renaming it Saint Anthony's Fire. Today it is cured with a simple injection. When it pops up in modern countries like the US, it is usually the side effect of treating another disease with medicine derived from ergot. Ergotism is also heavily implicated as a instigator during the witchcraft trials in Salem. People literally thought witches had cast a spell on the community thus causing the illness.

Edit: The Beef Cattle Research Council in Canada says this on their website: "The ethanol distillation process also has the potential to concentrate ergot alkaloids. While ethanol plants do have ergot limits, ensure that dried distiller’s grains (DDGS) made from wheat are ergot free."

Yikes...

Now that's some nasty news! That clearly indicates caution is needed.

[BoomTown]

+1 Boom

Most infamously known is ergotism, or ergotoxicosis. .....

Edit: The Beef Cattle Research Council in Canada says this on their website: "The ethanol distillation process also has the potential to concentrate ergot alkaloids. While ethanol plants do have ergot limits, ensure that dried distiller’s grains (DDGS) made from wheat are ergot free."

Yikes...

Now that's some nasty news! That clearly indicates caution is needed.

Check this out: http://customers.hbci.com/~wenonah/history/ergot.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[bearriver]

Nice link. There is a metric ton of interesting history there, as she pointed out. Who knows what history still lays undiscovered? Think about all the islands, ships, and even whole societies that have gone abandoned with no explanation... It's not always aliens and witches.

Note: I edited my post above.

[BoomTown]

Some one did a post on malting corn that used hydrogen peroxide in the steep water to help fight mold. Maybe do the same to rinse the mold off.
I would be a shame to not be able to use all that wheat. I like wheat.

I've been trying to find something that gives some specifics of how this might work, any clues how this grain could be processed to make it safe? Jed's idea, is interesting - Jed do you have a link to that thread?

B

[Steep-n-Rocky]

The hydrogen peroxide would work to prevent mold however if it is already present, it might kill it but the chemical components you are looking to avoid would still be present. With ergot, it develops in the field but not when malting, etc. If you have large amounts of it I do not think there is anything you can do. As a hobbyist however I would think there should be a way to separate infected grains from non-infected grains. Not sure how to do this but after reading HD forums for years, one thing I am sure of our ingenuity.

[bearriver]

I added to my first post how commercial granaries process out ergot. I'm sure there are other concerns with other molds however.

[MooseKnuckle]

I don't know man grains are pretty cheap... Whatever you do to try to clean this up or separate it is going to cost money and time, is it really worth it? Sure free material is good and all, but how do you even know that you've cleaned it all out when you're done anyway?

[still_stirrin]

Have you ever had blue cheese on your salad? Guess what makes it "blue"? Yup....mold.
ss

[MooseKnuckle]

Not saying all mold is bad, but IF this is a bad mold that you need to remove, then to me wouldn't be worth it. But how do you judge whether this mold is acceptable or not, and when you've "cleaned" it, how do you know you've removed it all and it's actually safe to use. I suppose you could use a few friends to test it out first if they live you can drink it... lol

To me, the amount of product I can get from $100 worth of materials is way beyond what you could buy at the liquor store for $100 so I wouldn't risk it unless there was some way to guarantee it was ok.

[bearriver]

Identify the mold. Not the hardest thing to do with some homemade agar cultures of isolated specimens, and a local college to analyze them. The most expensive part would be your time.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[BoomTown]

I don't know man grains are pretty cheap... Whatever you do to try to clean this up or separate it is going to cost money and time, is it really worth it? Sure free material is good and all, but how do you even know that you've cleaned it all out when you're done anyway?

Thank you MooseKnuckle,
You are quite correct about the prices, but you left something out of your consideration. If you've been following ourjourney to become a licensed distiller, you might have thought about our relationship to this issue differently. We know we can buy the grain needed from other sources, but part of our plan is to use locally grown grains. This farmer has been very helpful along this journey. He and other American farmers are fighting prices from offshore imports that are super competitive because of the strength of the dollar in international markets, Our farmer friend is getting crimped because of that; we simply want to be good neighbors if we can. We made promises to buy product from him and others in the valley when we can.
Some crops were planted simply because we plan to buy part of it.

This blight impacts our business plan as much as it hits him, so I thought I take a few hours and look into it. Is it worth it? Good business practices are always worth it. That's is an entirely different assessment, than how to deal with the fungus.

BTW, this aint Blue Cheese we're dealing with here, but thanks for the info. Still_stilling

[BoomTown]

Identify the mold. Not the hardest thing to do with some homemade agar cultures of isolated specimens, and a local college to analyze them. The most expensive part would be your time.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

This looks like the way to go! I just fired off a note to one of PSU's ag extension service centers. We're waiting to see if they might have already done that.

[kiwi Bruce]

Use it and sell it as fuel ethanol, just don't drink it. Kiwi Bruce

[bearriver]

From my research, exposure to ozone will completely denature any and all mycotoxins in a crop.

It is a process that can and is done at any scale. Some people will often give fruits and vegetables an ozone bath in their kitchen sink using a small ozone generator, which denatures many potential unwanted substances such as insecticides. Likewise there are some commercial facilities that specialize in ozonating fruits and vegetables for a longer shelf life of the products.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyKE6BKec74" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I'm sure there are laws that apply here, as far what can and cant be used. It may not be legal to use moldy grain in a product produced for human consumption, even if it is made to be safe. Every answer poses more questions...

[BoomTown]

From my research, exposure to ozone will completely denature any and all mycotoxins in a crop.

It is a process that can and is done at any scale. Some people will often give fruits and vegetables an ozone bath in their kitchen sink using a small ozone generator, which denatures many potential unwanted substances such as insecticides. Likewise there are some commercial facilities that specialize in ozonating fruits and vegetables for a longer shelf life of the products.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyKE6BKec74" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I'm sure there are laws that apply here, as far what can and cant be used. It may not be legal to use moldy grain in a product produced for human consumption, even if it is made to be safe. Every answer poses more questions...

True, That! Beariver.

[BoomTown]

Sent a not over to the PSU Ag Extension officer, and this is her reply (sanitized to protect the innocent of course)


It would be a good idea for you to check and confirm with FARMER XXX, but you are probably referring to a wheat and barley disease known as Fusarium Head Blight, or head scab. This is a disease that is not new and occurs to some extent each year, but affects the wheat in the area differently every year depending upon weather conditions. While this fungal infection does affect the quality of the grain, the even more concerning part is that it may produce a toxic byproduct as a result of the infection. This chemical, known as DON or vomitoxin, is tested for and has an acceptable limit of 1 ppm for human consumption. All the XXXX maltsters I know of test for DON and specify acceptable levels in their contracts with growers--but check with yours to be sure. If you are contracting directly with growers and then having custom malting done, the malt house you work with should be able to offer a test.

Because of the biology of the fungus (it gains access to the plant through the flowers), incidence of the disease will vary from crop to crop. For instance, this year, crops in the southern tier of PA were not affected very much because the spring was dry so weather at the time of flowering was not very conducive to the fungus. Those growers in the upper tier were not so lucky since rains were more prevalent during their flowering period (for wheat, barley flowers at a different time, so again this will vary). Things may differ from grower to grower as well since they may select different varieties and plant at different times.

There are a few steps a grower can take to reduce the amount of infection and subsequent production of toxin, but none of that will give you 100% control if the environment doesn't cooperate. You have a good cooperator in FARMER XXX, as now you have a heads up and can plan to source elsewhere if testing reveals an unacceptable crop. If you still want to source locally, not all hope is lost, you'll probably just have to do some legwork to find cleaner grain, and perhaps expand your definition of "locally sourced" to a broader area.

I'm guessing you might be a little bit new to the feedstock side of the process, so feel free to ask me any questions you might have. This is an issue you will have to deal with each year if you intend to source from anywhere in the northeast/midatlantic. That's not to discourage you, just to make you aware that it's something you'll want to consider in your contracts, and you'll need to keep an eye on the weather during flowering periods for the crops you'd like to buy so you can anticipate shortages and get ahead of the game.

There's a nationwide effort that I and other researchers at Penn State are a part of to help manage scab and determine times of greater risk. You can go to http://www.wheatscab.psu.edu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow in the spring to follow the risk prediction. I'll make commentary specific to PA during flowering time. There's also a lot going on right now to determine resistant varieties and management options--so keep hope alive!

Our taxes at work...thank you Doc.

[ga flatwoods]

I only use ergot I fested wheat to make Tazmanian Devil Whiskey. Then age with a piece of blowfish in it. Magical stuff.

[DAD300]

Is there a mold that will survive the boil or mash process? And then I'm sure someone knows if any dangerous by-products can survive the alcohol.

[BoomTown]

Is there a mold that will survive the boil or mash process? And then I'm sure someone knows if any dangerous by-products can survive the alcohol.

Dad,

've just cracked this egg, but I'm pretty sure LSD stuff makes the leap....

[kiwi Bruce]

Is there a mold that will survive the boil or mash process? And then I'm sure someone knows if any dangerous by-products can survive the alcohol.

The molds are killed by both boiling and alcohol, the problem is they will have already produced toxic alkaloids and these are NOT destroyed by boiling and alcohol, in fact they are refined and concentrated by distillation. If there is enough toxin present in the grain to start with, we run the risk of making a real witches brew. Not good for the liver! Kiwi Bruce

[DAD300]

Hmmm...if they can be filtered off...boil, drain, wash, and then mash...maybe...or call it Absinthe

[kiwi Bruce]

Quote from Encycloeadia Britannica :-Well-known alkaloids include morphine, strychnine, quinine, ephedrine, and nicotine. If I use nicotine as an example, In tobacco, I can smoke it and release the nicotine from the leaf, but if I make a tobacco tea, no amount of boiling, draining,washing or mashing is going to alter the nicotine. If I add sugar to the tobacco tea and ferment it and the distill the wash, the alcohol will act as a purifying agent and it would be as clear as any white dog but, with possibly deadly amounts of nicotine concentrated in it. That's the theory at least. Kiwi Bruce