Smearing with a Parrot

[S-Cackalacky]

I don't see how a change in ABV proves anything. It's smearing - period. It's not a question of whether it's smearing or not - it is. The question is whether or not you're willing to accept the smearing as part of your distillation process.

A more accurate test might be to fill it with 90 proof (or percent) and then add distilled water at the rate your still normally runs and see how long it takes it to reach 0.

Edit: BTW - be sure to measure the total output of the parrot so you know the volume of smeared product.

[captainshooch]

I do accept that smearing is a part of distillation. It is the the nautural scientific process of a solution, changing as the concentrations change and nothing is ever constant. The difference is I understand the ammount of smearing going on in my parrot and I can manage my cuts accordingly, versus, just discarding one of the tools we have to our access, and writing it off to smearing, since it is an ongoing process, that we, as distillers must learn to manage and deal with.

Add on the fact that we all run a "smear", pun intended, of stills, and they all behave, and smear differently, then it is a matter of the operator learning how to use a tool, and it's limitations to his advantage.

ADI conference, couple months ago, think it was Washington??.... not sure, but 500 medals awarded. A ton of craft distillers aiming to make the best of the best....most using a plated colum, and more than likely all using a parrot in the process....it is a tool, with limitations. Learn them understand them and use them to your advantage.

Ok, bottom line, I do not want to start a pissing match because opinions are like a....holes, and everybody has one. If you choose not to use a parrot, then it is your choice from your experience, and you should not suggest to everyone, not to use one, explain what goes on and let them make a choice. In time, some will, and some wont. But flat out saying that a parrot is not a tool that should be considered is just not good advice, is better to day use it in combination..................

Thanks for your input,
Hoochy

[S-Cackalacky]

All I'm saying is that parrots smear. That's the truth - not opinion. If you think it gives you some advantage, then by all means use it, but don't try to mislead everyone into thinking that the smearing is insignificant at the hobby level. And, its significance is compounded with smaller stills (or smaller runs). You can certainly do cuts and possibly even better cuts without the use of a parrot, so I contend that it's significance as a useful tool is overblown.

Go back and re-read the OP. The question was whether or not a parrot smears when used with a pot still. My confident belief is, yes, it does. If you accept that it smears and want to go ahead and use it, that's on you - no sweat off my ass.

[bentstick]

Thank you Captin for the input,and yes I agree a parrot may not be for everyone,but it is not out of the ? As a tool weather you use a simple pot still or the most complicated continous still, you must know your gear your tastes,smells,or even touch( which just is not my game) but to each their own and I would bet dollars to dounts anyone that sez you can taste a difference if someone used a parrot or not are full of it!

Out of a pot still it is ALL smeared,out of my plated column it is smeared but not to the same degree not even close, as to the OP you should just try it and decide for your self, this hobby is very subjective and DO NOT let ANYONE tell you that what you are doing is wrong unless it is putting you or others in danger with unsafe gear or bad stuff in the vapor path,which that is what the "RULES" were intended not just some of the opinions that are stashed in the must read section,each and all gear has the ability to do different and sometimes better than last gear built!
As stated the OP should do runs with and with out and decide for themselves weather a parrot is gear for his/her style! Maybe a bit of free will maybe open some eyes.

[Kegg_jam]

All I know is:

It takes about half as much liquid to fill my parrot as it does my test jar.

The parrot is a great tool for testing a new still configuration or new wash/mash recipe in real time.

If your 'pot still' is small and you want to maximize yield on a spirit run then don't use a parrot.

That is from experience (limited as it may be) and not hypothetically.

[Stainless dude]

I do accept that smearing is a part of distillation. It is the the nautural scientific process of a solution, changing as the concentrations change and nothing is ever constant. The difference is I understand the ammount of smearing going on in my parrot and I can manage my cuts accordingly, versus, just discarding one of the tools we have to our access, and writing it off to smearing, since it is an ongoing process, that we, as distillers must learn to manage and deal with.

Add on the fact that we all run a "smear", pun intended, of stills, and they all behave, and smear differently, then it is a matter of the operator learning how to use a tool, and it's limitations to his advantage.

ADI conference, couple months ago, think it was Washington??.... not sure, but 500 medals awarded. A ton of craft distillers aiming to make the best of the best....most using a plated colum, and more than likely all using a parrot in the process....it is a tool, with limitations. Learn them understand them and use them to your advantage.

Ok, bottom line, I do not want to start a pissing match because opinions are like a....holes, and everybody has one. If you choose not to use a parrot, then it is your choice from your experience, and you should not suggest to everyone, not to use one, explain what goes on and let them make a choice. In time, some will, and some wont. But flat out saying that a parrot is not a tool that should be considered is just not good advice, is better to day use it in combination..................

Thanks for your input,


Hoochy

Great post Cap

Thank you Captin for the input,and yes I agree a parrot may not be for everyone,but it is not out of the ? As a tool weather you use a simple pot still or the most complicated continous still, you must know your gear your tastes,smells,or even touch( which just is not my game) but to each their own and I would bet dollars to dounts anyone that sez you can taste a difference if someone used a parrot or not are full of it!

Out of a pot still it is ALL smeared,out of my plated column it is smeared but not to the same degree not even close, as to the OP you should just try it and decide for your self, this hobby is very subjective and DO NOT let ANYONE tell you that what you are doing is wrong unless it is putting you or others in danger with unsafe gear or bad stuff in the vapor path,which that is what the "RULES" were intended not just some of the opinions that are stashed in the must read section,each and all gear has the ability to do different and sometimes better than last gear built!


As stated the OP should do runs with and with out and decide for themselves weather a parrot is gear for his/her style! Maybe a bit of free will maybe open some eyes.

I agree Bent..

[captainshooch]

Here is a guide that shows how a run is really a continious smearing of fractions. Looked for it here, but could not find it, so

http://www.coppercustomstillcomponents. ... ller#p1046" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Basically, your still produces a smeared product from beggining to end, so according to some here, your parrot is no good, cause it leads to smearing....really? Yes, but it is a mangeable ammount. Lear to deal with it and use this tool to your advantage.

[googe]

So, in conclusion,the still you are using smears to the degree it's design is, you will get the same smearing no.matter the still design. The end.

[emptyglass]

For those not using a parrot, How do you know when to stop collecting? Mostly talking about spirit runs as a parrot in a stripping run is a non issue. I suppose I can collect without a parrot until I know I am into heads then switch to the parrot. that or keep pouring samples into my test jar when I think the run is finished. Having only used a parrot thus far, I would like to try a run or two without it to see how I fair in the collection process.

When originally thinking about the parrot smearing I was considering cuts. If I collected in pint jars using a parrot and say jar 10 I determined was the start of hearts would jar 9 be the cutoff if I didn't use a parrot or jar 8,7,6? Knowing now that a parrot will add some smearing I am thinking that at worst I'll toss an extra pint maybe 2 into my feints jar? If worse than 2 pints though, I think I'd rather not use it.

When you stop is your call. You'll notice the rate slows down and the ABV drops (however you measure it)

Nothing is truly reliable from one still to another. Ol' boys say its when you see oils, others say its after the hearts cut, others make a tails cut and keep collecting.

Its your call and something you'll have to judge after a few go's.

Never mind the other chatter about smearing when it comes to this question. Buy the time your shutting down its past the point of concern. A jar at the start is worth 4 at the end.

[thecroweater]

I only use my parrot once I know hearts have started these days, not a big deal but I think I get an extra 200 to 300 mls of hearts this way. I re-run faints anyway so not a big deal but if I can milk a bit more why not. The parrot will help me milk all the hearts out of tails maybe getting me another 500 mls of hearts but that's another story

[SirPuFFaLoT]

Thank you everyone; lots of great input. I wasn't intending to start conflict but I am kind of glad that it did. This conversation has certainly answered all my questions with regard to my parrot.

I did a spirit run last night without my parrot and it went much smoother than I anticipated. I had a good idea of how much alcohol I was going to collect so I only needed to take a few test jar samples to measure ABV when I thought I was into tails. Once I was below 50% ABV I started checking each jar for oils. I actually did see oils around jar 50 so I collected 2 more quarts and shut it off. I tested the last jar and it was just under 20% abv (perfect).

I understand both sides of this argument as to whether a parrot is useful enough to accept a tad more smearing. My experience is limited, obviously. So I'll just say that not using it last night seemed to be a better learning experience than my previous spirit runs where I just watched my hydrometer bob and spin until it said 20%. I was paying a lot closer attention to the entire process. I even noticed that the stream from my liebig would start to lean/sag (hard to describe) when the temp needed to be raised a hair more to keep the flow at 10 minutes per pint.

Thanks again for all the advise and opinions.

[Danespirit]

My experience is limited, obviously. So I'll just say that not using it last night seemed to be a better learning experience than my previous spirit runs where I just watched my hydrometer bob and spin until it said 20%. I was paying a lot closer attention to the entire process. I even noticed that the stream from my liebig would start to lean/sag (hard to describe) when the temp needed to be raised a hair more to keep the flow at 10 minutes per pint.

As the alcohol in your boiler is depleted, this phenomenom just shows the laws of nature are still valid...

[captainshooch]

Mr Sirpuffalot you have done exactly what anyone would want to see. You took time to listen, analyze, absorb and digest information and use it to your advantage. Congrats, you are way ahead in the curve.

[captainshooch]

A final note and I am done with this. Let's assume that Mr Sirpuffalot's friend comes over one day and tells him, " I am thinking of getting a still and start making my own, can you help me?"

Mr Puff (hope ya dont mind me calling ya Mr puff, is shorter) says," Sure man, go on over to HD and start yer reading and if you have any questions I can help."

Friend goes and follows his advise.....couple weeks goes by and he tells Mr. Puff...

"Great site, lots of good info, but was thinking wether or not I should include a parrot in my set up?, What do you think?

There are 2 answers...
One is....no faking way, they smear, I dont use them and basically are useless......
The other....is a tool, you can use it to your advantage, dont really have to have it, but a lot to be learned from watching one. Eventually, you might do away with it, but, hell yeah get one, and use it to your advantage so you can understand the complexity of distillation and then choose, to keep it or not, once you are comfortable.


I sincerely hope you choose the second one... and help your friend learn as much as he can, from here, and from what you have learned.

It is up to some of us to pass on to you what we have learned, so you can pass it on to the next guy

Debating is not necessarily a bad thing. Lots to be learned from all sides.

Thanks for starting this thread, must admit it is a good one.

[thecroweater]

Debating is almost never a bad thing until someone chucks their toys out the pram (hasn't really happened in this thread)

[SirPuFFaLoT]

I sincerely hope you choose the second one... and help your friend learn as much as he can, from here, and from what you have learned.

For sure Captain. well said. Please don't think I was saying a parrot is a bad choice; I'm too inexperienced to make that call. Like you said, I'm just taking the advice offered and trying it both ways to see what works best for me. I would like to be able to make runs without it and then in future runs use my parrot and see if I even notice the smearing when I make cuts. I'll base any future advice I give on my experiences but I'm not one to think there is only one way of doing things.

Thanks for shedding light on this subject.

[captainshooch]

Never for a moment did I think you were saying a parrot is bad. Makes me feel good when someone learns from others, it is how I learned, and a pleasure to pass it along.

Ok, lets move on,...so what are you plannjng for your next run?

[SirPuFFaLoT]

I am going to keep running UJSM until I get a good feel for how to make cuts. Actually, I'll probably keep running UJSM for a while until I save up money for future improvements. I'd like to convert to electric but my next expense will have to be preparations for winter. I'd like to be able to keep fermenting the same UJSM through winter but I'm not sure I will be ready in time. I wanted to build a heated closet for my fermenters but this year I will most likely have to wrap them with insulation and heat the wash directly with fish tank heaters(funds are the main deterrent). On top of that, I will need to make the preparations to run the still in freezing weather. I might give up on the whole idea though and just store up enough likker to get me through until next spring.

[WIski]

Some recent conversations on Parrot smearing. Interesting transitions.........

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 87&t=56008

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p7070225

[S-Cackalacky]

Some recent conversations on Parrot smearing. Interesting transitions.........

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 87&t=56008

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p7070225

It was interesting to read Bellybuster's posts in the two threads. In 2013 his post was a glowing endorsement of using a parrot. In the later thread (May, 2015) after running his food coloring test and finding that it took "many litres" to clear the color from the parrot, he stopped using it. It was also concerning to see the flawed sense of logic some folks were using to rationalize using a parrot.

This is Bellybuster's 2013 understanding of how a parrot works:

I don't have a parrot...yet But, my understanding of them is to start using the parrot once foreshots are gone. Then while collecting heads the volume of the parrot is less than most folks use for collection jars so smearing is not an issue. Liquid comes in the bottom out the top what little mixing there might be is moot, especially when cuts are made. If jar 9 for example is your cutoff from heads to hearts, it still would be parrot or not and any mixing in the parrot would have gone straight to the jar without a parrot

It was also interesting to see how others immediately came to the support of his logic.

This is Bellybuster's 2015 post after doing his food coloring test:

just for interest, I did a simple experiment with my parrot to see if smearing might be an issue. I used coloured water, it took many litres before the colour left the output.... i no longer use my parrot

That all said, it was refreshing to see that some did understand that it needed to be managed in such a way as to minimize the smearing. Things like - bringing it online after fores have passed, using a smaller alcometer and smaller tube, dumping the parrot after each fill, etc.

It's been mentioned a couple of times already that the OP was asking about smearing and the use of a parrot on a pot still. Posting about its use on a reflux still would seem to be somewhat off topic and confusing in the context of this thread. Just as there is no real advantage to using a thermometer on a pot still, I would contend that there is no real advantage to using a parrot and it may indeed be detrimental.

Monitoring ABV on a pot still has no real advantage. Most agree that it doesn't aid in doing cuts. You really can't effectively control the ABV coming out of the condenser. It would seem that it is only a kind of entertainment while you run - like watching a thermometer. And, entertainment with a cost.