Now turn those keg boilers 90 degrees please!

[Odin]

Distillation is evaporation and condensation. When the same amount of water is spread over a bigger area (wider, so to say), we get faster evaporation. Imagine (thank for the metaphore, Croweater!) a muddy pool with an amount X of water. The wider more shallow pool will dry out (evaporation) sooner.

How does this translate to what we do, to "controlled environment distillation", where power in, column management systems, and product coolers help us control both evaporation and condensation?

In two ways:
1. Stop using kegs as vertical boilers! Instead turn them 90 degrees, please, for more surface area;
2. In general: make wider instead of higher boilers.

The advantages of wider boilers (instead of higher ones) are enourmous. Here we go:
1. More surface area means more evaporation, so you create more gasses at the same energy input;
2. A wider boiler, with more surface area, means the energy input is dispersed (evaporation!) over a wider area, so the liquid bath doesn't rock & roll so much;
3. As a result a wider boiler, with the same total content as a more narrow, higher design, can contain more liquids: 80 to 90% instead of 60 to 70%. Ergo: with the same amount of material you can do bigger runs;
4. Because of the bigger fill, the gas bed above the liquid bath in the boiler is smaller, creating a more stable gas bed, that allows for higher production rates that are more controlled, and:
5. Because the wider liquid bath does not rock & roll so much, the gas bed above it is much more stable, giving you even more stability in terms of gas pressure and gas speeds.

So let's start building wider boilers!

Odin.

[NZChris]

"1. More surface area means more evaporation, so you create more gasses at the same energy input;"

Prove it

[Odin]

Put two cups on the table. One wide, the other narrow. Same amounts of water in them. See what's evaporated first.

And in a boiling situation: more disturbence in the liquid bath creates more turbulance to the gas bed, creating more (unwanted) reflux.

Odin.

[LWTCS]

Put two cups on the table. One wide, the other narrow. Same amounts of water in them. See what's evaporated first.
.

Not the same thing.

[InglisHill]

Surface tention, and molecules having the energy to overcome this, is really something you ought to read up on.

[Kegg_jam]

I guess you could put two different size pots on the stove with the same amount of water in them. Boil for 20 or 30 minutes the measure what's left.

[LWTCS]

For our purposes, the vapor created is proportional to the heat installed.

Simply lying a keg on it's side (with all other variables unchanged) will not put more vapor into suspension.

[Odin]

For our purposes, the vapor created is proportional to the heat installed.

Simply lying a keg on it's side (with all other variables unchanged) will not put more vapor into suspension.

Hi Larry,

There a little bit more to it. Boiling action of the liquid bath has a huge impact on the gas bed above it. Think micro pressure changes, pushing gases out of phase and/or derailing them from the optimal path to the column entrance.

Regard, Odin.

[BoomTown]

Taking a quick look at these keg based stills, where the columns originate in the center of the keg, tipping one 90 degrees creates a design challeng for keeping the vapor path open. You're going to get a lot of push back on that idea, unless someone can actually design around that challenge. Most of these guys are locked into a vertical position with their pots (kegs).

Wish you'd had time to visit while you were in the area, maybe your next visit. Meantime, we've finally gotten our permitting nailed down, are now in re-evaluation of the bids for gear that we've gathered up over the past two years. I find this design question interesting, from both an operational question, and equipment line design review (we may need less vertical space overall). Wonder if there are numbers to suggest that the distiller would produce higher volume with your (Old timer's call that horizontal boiler a) Torpedo design vrs the traditional bottom fired pots?

[LWTCS]

Pressure changes within an open distillation system are predicated upon the input of heat being applied.

Simply lying a keg on it's side (with all other variables being equal) will not change the pressure within the system either.

[Condensifier]

One thing to consider is when a keg is in the horizontal position once it's passed the half way point the surface area decreases as it's being filled where a keg in the vertical position remains the same.

[Bushman]

One thing to consider is when a keg is in the horizontal position once it's passed the half way point the surface area decreases as it's being filled where a keg in the vertical position remains the same.

Not sure what your trying to tell us with this information as it relates to the conversation?

[S-Cackalacky]

Even if scientifically sound (which I doubt), it would be an impractical design. Besides, it's already proven that output can be controlled by heat. If you maintain the same stream of output (using heat), what's the advantage of laying the keg on it's side? The design problems it creates would seem to outweigh any questionable advantage it might achieve.

Odin, if your proof of concept is based on room temp evaporation from two different sized cups, that's not proof of anything. You're leaving out the most important element of the equation - HEAT.

People here use kegs because they contribute to an easy build. If you want to sell your concept, show us a new vessel that's easy to attain and easy to incorporate into a build. I'm thinking a keg doesn't fit that bill.

[heartcut]

The partial pressure of the gases in the vapor space is proportional to the heat and the concentration in the liquid, the surface area would not slow the transfer of molecules at the volume to surface ratio we get with a keg in any orientation. They do look cool on the side, though.

[S-Cackalacky]

One thing to consider is when a keg is in the horizontal position once it's passed the half way point the surface area decreases as it's being filled where a keg in the vertical position remains the same.

Not sure what your trying to tell us with this information as it relates to the conversation?

What Hobby said makes perfect sense to me. Bushman, what part of that doesn't relate to the conversation? Odin's whole concept is based on creating a larger surface area and once the fill level of a horizontal keg goes past the half full point, the surface area begins to decrease - nothing particularly confusing about that.

[pfshine]

Really this again. It has been suggested before and science shot it down. Evaporation and boiling is like comparing cats and apples, they are both living things just not the same. The process of giving up liquid is different. When boiling liquid for vaporization all that really matters is heat and pressure. The smaller the open surface area the rougher the boil looks, but its not. It is still giving up the same amount of energy.

[bearriver]

I have a stove with 4 burners. 2 pairs to be exact like most folks. I'm going to put a large and a small pot on equal sized burners, then add a quart to each. We'll see which one boils away first.

I'm off to the kitchen with my helmet and kneepads, in the name of science!

[LWTCS]

Really this again. It has been suggested before and science shot it down. Evaporation and boiling is like comparing cats and apples, they are both living things just not the same. The process of giving up liquid is different. When boiling liquid for vaporization all that really matters is heat and pressure. The smaller the open surface area the rougher the boil looks, but its not. It is still giving up the same amount of energy.

+100%

Two 15 gallon, identical kegs with two equal beer charges of say,,,,,10%, both heated with 5500 watts applied ( one keg upright and one keg lying on its side) will render the same volume at the same rate.

The squat kettle shapes and horizontal position of pill shaped kettles has much more to do with (not including perceived quality of separation) keeping construction and long term maintenance costs within the total physical plant reduced.
Buildings with taller ceiling height are just more expensive to construct. Keeping the entire distillation apparatus closer to the ground is easier and safer to maintain over the service life of the equipment.

[LWTCS]

I have a stove with 4 burners. 2 pairs to be exact like most folks. I'm going to put a large and a small pot on equal sized burners, then add a quart to each. We'll see which one boils away first.

I'm off to the kitchen with my helmet and kneepads, in the name of science!

Most burners on the cook top do not apply an equal amount of heat.

[Condensifier]

One thing to consider is when a keg is in the horizontal position once it's passed the half way point the surface area decreases as it's being filled where a keg in the vertical position remains the same.

Not sure what your trying to tell us with this information as it relates to the conversation?

Odin's point about more surface area means more evaporation. As you fill a keg on it's side the surface area becomes smaller at the half way point to full. It might not make much of a difference in most cases or at all but it's something to consider if you're going to go through the effort of converting a keg from vertical to horizontal. Just sayin.

[Brutal]

Surface area cannot alter the chemical reaction of liquid to gas. As liquid is heated to it's boiling point it becomes a gas/vapor, a process that consumes heat energy. The heat it consumes keeps the liquid at the boiling point and no higher. If you put more heat in there will be a direct affect on the vapor/gas being produced, but it will not cause it to happen faster than the heat is being applied. That would be creating energy on it's own. Not possible.

The evaporation experiment means nothing to what happens in the closed environment of our boilers. Evaporation is affected by the humidity in the air, air temperature, air speed, and yes- surface exposure. Inside a boiler the "air" is displaced by vapor. The vapor temperature is at the boiling point of the liquid, and if it drops even a little, it drops out of suspension. If the vapor temperature drops then the heat it lost has been deposited somewhere.

No energy is being created or lost in our boilers. Just transferred through several mediums.

A short, fat boiler I agree could have an advantage in less disruption of the vapor bed. I think the volume of the vapor area would have a larger impact than the surface area but I may be mistaken.

[bearriver]

Larry, you are spot on. My stove isn't a good place to run a reliable experiment. I was being somewhat playful with my statement, but did do it anyways.

Both pots on my stove boiled off at the same rate. Whatever that's worth, I don't imagine it's much...

[bearriver]

Here's my take. You can't change the boiling point without changing the pressure.

Any energy put into a liquid at boiling will be transfered into the producing vapor (minus thermal losses). There is nowhere else for it to go.

If a narrow boiler produces less vapor with the same energy input as a wide one, then where is that energy being lost exactly? Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only change states. For that reason I will retain my scepticism... For now.

I dig your thought provoking discussions Odin.

[thecroweater]

Oh man this dusty old story has been done to death over the years and tried over and over. What i see over and over is no difference

[LWTCS]

Oh man this dusty old story has been done to death over the years and tried over and over. What i see over and over is no difference

So,,,Betty or Veronica?

[emptyglass]

I think your all wrong, I tilted my whole house to 45 degrees,

Everything just works so much better at 45...

Seriously Odin, what have you got in store? A 90 degree keg based hydro separating Istill?

I might be dumb, but I'm not stupid...

[Bushman]

One thing to consider is when a keg is in the horizontal position once it's passed the half way point the surface area decreases as it's being filled where a keg in the vertical position remains the same.

Not sure what your trying to tell us with this information as it relates to the conversation?

What Hobby said makes perfect sense to me. Bushman, what part of that doesn't relate to the conversation? Odin's whole concept is based on creating a larger surface area and once the fill level of a horizontal keg goes past the half full point, the surface area begins to decrease - nothing particularly confusing about that.

OK, I understand that but even with the diminishing surface area it will be larger than an upright keg if the theory holds true then to get optimum performance you would never fill a keg more than 1/2 full but this theory would not be correct because of all the other factors involved including heat up time.

[pfshine]

I think your all wrong, I tilted my whole house to 45 degrees,

Everything just works so much better at 45...

Seriously Odin, what have you got in store? A 90 degree keg based hydro separating Istill?

I might be dumb, but I'm not stupid...

I second that.

[LWTCS]

OK, I understand that but even with the diminishing surface area it will be larger than an upright keg if the theory holds true then to get optimum performance you would never fill a keg more than 1/2 full but this theory would not be correct because of all the other factors involved including heat up time.[/quote]

+1
Its as if the assertion is being applied completely out of context.

[Angel_Kefka]

Mainly posting to dispute the puddle comparison. 2 puddles of equal volume but differing surface area would have different heat input, since the larger one gets more Sun.

I think even if there is a difference (which I doubt) it would be minuscule compared to minor differences in heat input.