Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
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Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Really, no need to do so anymore (he said in a provocative manner)! Why? Here's why! Let's do as the big boys and use hydroseparation instead. Next step? Add a few continuous distillation columns. Much more efficient, much easier as well.
But let's not skip steps and start at the beginning. Stop cutting for Heads and Tails. It's a menace, isn't it? Well, here's the easy solution: hydro separation.
Here is the approach:
1. Strip that ferment into low wines - and collect EVERYTHING in that process;
2. Dilute the low wines to 17%;
3. Heads will sink, tails will rise, so syphon off the the middle 2/3rds ...;
4. And run that again.
Since you got rid of (most) heads and tails via the hydroseparation and consecutive re-use of the middle part, which is so much cleaner, you can do that second run fast. And you don't have to take additional cuts.
You feel that you now lost 1/3rd? No, you didn't. Stay with me. That 1/3rd with most of the heads and tails, but still with a big, big amount of ethanol in there ... you do not toss. You keep it. And when you strip another batch, you add the low wines to that vessel. Next step? You lower the abv again to 17%, so heads and tails hydro separate again ... and because the amount of heads and tails is now actually doubled, they can compact even better. Remember: tails float like an oilsy film on top, heads sink and give a foggyness near the bottom. Next step? You could see it coming, right? Syphon of the middle 2/3rd and run again. At full speed, since you don't have to make cuts anymore.
You want to age longer, have a stronger profile? Dilute to 20%, so not all heads and tails come out of solution. Or reintroduce small parts of the heads or tails to the now twice distilled spirit. The more often you do this, the more concentrated (at top and bottom) these heads and tails factions become. In short: you can syphon them off seperately to create different styles of drinks, and you get to play around with fruitiness and rootiness in your end drink.
Just sharing.
Regards, Odin.
But let's not skip steps and start at the beginning. Stop cutting for Heads and Tails. It's a menace, isn't it? Well, here's the easy solution: hydro separation.
Here is the approach:
1. Strip that ferment into low wines - and collect EVERYTHING in that process;
2. Dilute the low wines to 17%;
3. Heads will sink, tails will rise, so syphon off the the middle 2/3rds ...;
4. And run that again.
Since you got rid of (most) heads and tails via the hydroseparation and consecutive re-use of the middle part, which is so much cleaner, you can do that second run fast. And you don't have to take additional cuts.
You feel that you now lost 1/3rd? No, you didn't. Stay with me. That 1/3rd with most of the heads and tails, but still with a big, big amount of ethanol in there ... you do not toss. You keep it. And when you strip another batch, you add the low wines to that vessel. Next step? You lower the abv again to 17%, so heads and tails hydro separate again ... and because the amount of heads and tails is now actually doubled, they can compact even better. Remember: tails float like an oilsy film on top, heads sink and give a foggyness near the bottom. Next step? You could see it coming, right? Syphon of the middle 2/3rd and run again. At full speed, since you don't have to make cuts anymore.
You want to age longer, have a stronger profile? Dilute to 20%, so not all heads and tails come out of solution. Or reintroduce small parts of the heads or tails to the now twice distilled spirit. The more often you do this, the more concentrated (at top and bottom) these heads and tails factions become. In short: you can syphon them off seperately to create different styles of drinks, and you get to play around with fruitiness and rootiness in your end drink.
Just sharing.
Regards, Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
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- Rumrunner
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Tried it.
Didn't work.
Do you have pictures of yours so we can see what you are talking about?
Didn't work.
Do you have pictures of yours so we can see what you are talking about?
- Danespirit
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Interesting thought...i see your point, Odin.
Gravity would be your friend and do the cuts for you...
Gravity would be your friend and do the cuts for you...
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
nup it wont work nearly efficiently enough, Ya can bet London to bricks bud you are still going to get heads and tails
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Yes, you will still get heads and tails! I agree, Crow, but less, much less. So it cannot be used for white spirits, but it can be used for drinks that are aged and need heads and tails for more taste complexity at the end. It is how the big boys do it. Hmmm ... not sure that's the best example!
Odin.
Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Odin,let's see if I've got my head around this approach.thecroweater wrote:nup it wont work nearly efficiently enough, Ya can bet London to bricks bud you are still going to get heads and tails
We start with a fermented Beer at about 10% ABV, and strip (assume 10 gal of beer =) one gal of low wine at 40%. We take the 1 gal and add back in 2.24 gal of water = 3.34 gal @ 17%,
At this concentration (17% ABV), heads and tails will separate by weight? How long will that separation take?
We collect this 3 times, (3.34 gallon x 3) for approximately 10 gallon) and then do a Spirit Run
Output of the spirit run is 1.7 gallon (mine runs at about 80%). Then we let that sit to separate by weight, and draw out the middle ⅔ = .57 gallon of hearts,
Then we combine the remaining (heads and tails) from that spirit run with the next collections of low wines, diluting it all back the 17% ABV
and repeat. At some point we draw off the tails separately to blend back into the hearts to achieve the taste characteristics we seek?
Is that the process you are suggesting? How is that different than using a Thumper on a Pot still, and snagging the heads and tails using a alcohol meter at designated points?
“…Let’s do this one more time....”
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
yeah well if Jim Bean woodstock and the like are on ya list of big boys I'm not riveted with intrest, damned if I want to wait 8 yrs for a C grade drink I can only take with coke and still shudderOdin wrote:Yes, you will still get heads and tails! I agree, Crow, but less, much less. So it cannot be used for white spirits, but it can be used for drinks that are aged and need heads and tails for more taste complexity at the end. It is how the big boys do it. Hmmm ... not sure that's the best example! Odin.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
I'm reminded of this thread a couple years ago: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=19169
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
I'd be interested in seeing the procedure in action.
Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Enjoyed going back and reading that thread, had forgotten a lot of that information. Question on the best way to do separation. If you are saying a 1/3rd of each keeping the middle then I am guessing if you drew lines on a vessel dividing it into thirds you would syphon the first third, then in another vessel syphon the middle third. After that you would save the first third and the last third for another run.RandyMarshCT wrote:I'm reminded of this thread a couple years ago: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=19169
This reminds me of the whole discussion of using a parrot and the fear some have about smearing! You would have to be able to see the bottom of the syphon so as not to put it to far into the vessel but make sure you are taking away from the third you are working on. For me this seems like a lot of extra work.
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Odin, do you have sources to backup this concept?
Posted while Bushman posted.
I would challenge anyone to do that without remixing everything. Besides, this method seems more difficult than actually doing cuts the normal way.Odin wrote:3. Heads will sink, tails will rise, so syphon off the the middle 2/3rds ...;
Posted while Bushman posted.
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
maybe you have forgotten the concept of "compression" odin
not sure about how a stainless slant plate still does this task, but a plated column does it well. No need to syphon 1/3, how you do that still perplexes me, maybe you just tell the wash to only surrender that part.
Maybe you can just tell the wash to "please keep the bits I dont want". I'd like to think I can use the force, but I have my doubts. I'd have more luck with a fermenter voo-do doll, stab it in the fractions.
Care to name any of these "big boys"?
not sure about how a stainless slant plate still does this task, but a plated column does it well. No need to syphon 1/3, how you do that still perplexes me, maybe you just tell the wash to only surrender that part.
Maybe you can just tell the wash to "please keep the bits I dont want". I'd like to think I can use the force, but I have my doubts. I'd have more luck with a fermenter voo-do doll, stab it in the fractions.
Care to name any of these "big boys"?
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Odin, I love you man.
You make reading the forum interesting.
I'd still like to see the hydro separation in action tho. Would one make 'cuts' while siphoning? How would one know where the heads are laying and the tails are floating?
You make reading the forum interesting.
I'd still like to see the hydro separation in action tho. Would one make 'cuts' while siphoning? How would one know where the heads are laying and the tails are floating?
Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
No cuts, sideways kegs, no mashing and fermenting, Dutch Courage spilling out all over the place.
My goodness, Odin, you're feeling pretty feisty these days.
My goodness, Odin, you're feeling pretty feisty these days.
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I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
I'm not sold on hydroseparation but if it is true then you should be able to centrifuge for quicker seperation.
Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
I tried hydro separation.
I discovered that if you wait long enough, nothing will happen.
I discovered that if you wait long enough, nothing will happen.
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Could you elaborate on that...??Bagasso wrote:I'm not sold on hydroseparation but if it is true then you should be able to centrifuge for quicker seperation.
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
for belivers and unbelivers this is a perfect prequel to this thread:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=19169
if one was to attempt this "technique" would a parrot be beneficial? that way, as youre siphoning youd see the abv change from your target sweet spot. ive never used one but theoretically it should help. Id love to add it to the "project list" but id admit there would be way more people on this site better at cuts than me to test it against hydoseperation.
sounds cool
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=19169
if one was to attempt this "technique" would a parrot be beneficial? that way, as youre siphoning youd see the abv change from your target sweet spot. ive never used one but theoretically it should help. Id love to add it to the "project list" but id admit there would be way more people on this site better at cuts than me to test it against hydoseperation.
sounds cool
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Hydroseparation works because it is work. Here's a link to Odin's iStill forum where he explains the process in more detail. http://www.istillforum.eu/istillforum.e ... ?f=24&t=73" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Fact...it does improve production efficiency recovering alcohol where it otherwise would be discarded as waste. The Scotts are the champions at that because they are taxed based on the potential alcohol going into the brewery/distillery, not just the product produced. When economics mandates maximum efficiency...processes improve to maximize efficiency. Hydroseparation is a method to retrieve the alcohol in the heads and tails after the normal hearts cut. Why not...if you can?
Innovative Odin. Keep 'em comin'.
ss
Fact...it does improve production efficiency recovering alcohol where it otherwise would be discarded as waste. The Scotts are the champions at that because they are taxed based on the potential alcohol going into the brewery/distillery, not just the product produced. When economics mandates maximum efficiency...processes improve to maximize efficiency. Hydroseparation is a method to retrieve the alcohol in the heads and tails after the normal hearts cut. Why not...if you can?
Innovative Odin. Keep 'em comin'.
ss
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Nice post ss. Thanks for the link.
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Having had master distillers in my family and knowing a couple of commercial whisky distillers I'm going to have to call bullshit on this, never heard Hyroseparation discussed even hypothetically as a viable commercial enterprise
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Well, since the idea is that heads and tails seperate and either sink or float due to differences is mass then a centrifuge would make the process more efficient because it would use more than 1g of force.Danespirit wrote:Could you elaborate on that...??
So instead of letting the low wines sit for days, the seperation could be done in minutes.
ETA: It should also make it possible to compress the fractions so that you end up with a larger middle fraction.
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
So...
If I understand correctly, this means I should always make sure I serve the first and last portions of store bought whisky to someone I don't like. I shall keep this in mind the next party my wife organizes. Thanks for the tip Odin.
If I understand correctly, this means I should always make sure I serve the first and last portions of store bought whisky to someone I don't like. I shall keep this in mind the next party my wife organizes. Thanks for the tip Odin.
I'm goin the distance...
Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Ya, total bullshit.thecroweater wrote:Having had master distillers in my family and knowing a couple of commercial whisky distillers I'm going to have to call bullshit on this, never heard Hyroseparation discussed even hypothetically as a viable commercial enterprise
Where are the Scotch guys hiding these "cold fractioning" towers, for starters?
We love you Odin, but you don't half talk some bollocks sometimes.
Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Lol! And that's why I only ever drink JD through a straw. Gotta get that sweet heart cut.MitchyBourbon wrote:So...
If I understand correctly, this means I should always make sure I serve the first and last portions of store bought whisky to someone I don't like. I shall keep this in mind the next party my wife organizes. Thanks for the tip Odin.
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
He seems to have a habit of posting these controversial questions then fucking off to watch from a distance as everyone start arguing about it.
As I said in the thread about sideways keg boilers. If all this shit was valid. We would already be doing it because you can bet your ass the big guys would have figured it out.
How far do you take it? Does that mean we should only put the middle but of our ferment in to the boiler so we don't waste energy boiling the heads and tails in the first place?
As I said in the thread about sideways keg boilers. If all this shit was valid. We would already be doing it because you can bet your ass the big guys would have figured it out.
How far do you take it? Does that mean we should only put the middle but of our ferment in to the boiler so we don't waste energy boiling the heads and tails in the first place?
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
I thought it was just Odin's attempt at a sarcastic joke.
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
Maybe try hydroseperating your wash?Tokoroa_Shiner wrote:He seems to have a habit of posting these controversial questions then fucking off to watch from a distance as everyone start arguing about it.
As I said in the thread about sideways keg boilers. If all this shit was valid. We would already be doing it because you can bet your ass the big guys would have figured it out.
How far do you take it? Does that mean we should only put the middle but of our ferment in to the boiler so we don't waste energy boiling the heads and tails in the first place?
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Re: Stop Cutting for Heads and Tails alltogether!
That could work. I'll use turbo yeast to get the ABV up to the recommended 17%
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