SPP Packing

[sergiolis]

Thanks Edwin, I will think about it

[Odin]

Here's a short movie on the oversized copper SPP I use in the glass catalyst to my 2 inch LM system. Now this is oversized, so not ideal as far as low HETP goes in a 2 inch diameter system, but as a catalyst filling I like it. Small copper SPP really gets rusty very quick and this bigger version is relatively more open and stays in good shape longer. Off course the rest of the column, on top of the catalyst, is filled with the correct size SPP. Anyhow the video gives a good idea of how SPP in action works. In this case: semi-flooded, bottom of column:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP86uBd ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And there's a picture with some data. You can see that the actual boiling point of ethanol is at this moment 78.3C. And that it takes off at 78.3 as well. The really goofy thing is the temperature at the bottom of the column: < 81c, meaning the whole column is filled with >90% ABV.

I currently throw 2.6 KW at her, but will up that to 2.8 in a minute. Current collection rate is 4 liters per hour at 96.5%.

Regards, Odin.

[Odin]

And here's another short movie about the workings of SPP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wed22IM ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

We were a bit further in the run. Temperature at the bottom was 81.2c, but when I upped the power from 2.6 to 2.8 KW, the take-off rate increased AND temperature at the bottom decreased to 80.8c. So more power leads to more output and a more stable run with more total ABV in the column. The lower HETP of SPP in a (semi) flooded condition is the explanation for that. The only thing that limits this is that if you keep on increasing power, in the end you will create total column flooding and that you don't want.

Taking off at 4.2 liters per hour currently.

Edit: needle valve opened further and I just took a reading: 4.5 liters per hour at 96.5%. I guess I just broke my own record of 4.25! What cleaning the SPP can do for you!

Regards, Odin.

[Norbrewer]

Thanks for the replies !

My plan to test before the next run :

Loose the collar , less packed column 75 cm should be enough , a little more free space under the takeout , and try to increase takeoff speed .

Anything else i could try ? Hope to get hold of a sightglass by then to

Hi guys. Just chiming in to tell that my previous problems with flooding is gone. I did remowe the collar. I also reduced the packed column to 75 cm. The sightglass was a really cool investment too. I did a couple of runs this weekend. At 1250 w i took of up to 2l / hour , but that was to much and i got fogging in the glass and tails after a while. The last run i just dialed in at 1l / h and didnt touch anything before tails showed up. My cheap meter insists that i have several liters of 97% now. Newer seen that before Thanks for all good adwise in this thread !!

[sergiolis]

That's amazing Odin!!!

[Hound Dog]

Odin, the SPP that is seen in your video is round and very tight. In reading an out the forum I have seen much discussion concerning angles on star shaped SPP. The sample I have has spacing between the windings also.

Do you find the round to be better? Or do you think it is important to be tight between the coils? I remember seeing some in a thread fom a Russian poster that while angled was tight and very short also. I wondered what your take on optimal shape is.

[Odin]

That's just the bigger SPP, Hound! Smaller is more open and has specified angles for optimum performance. In smaller, open is better. On bigger, the load becomes too much, and one needs to compromize.

More open structure facilitates phase 2, where bigger, more tightly wound SPP only has phase 1 and 3.

Regards, Odin.

[Odin]

Here's a picture of the smaller stuff, for 2 inch columns! Smaller, more open.

Regards, Odin.

[Hound Dog]

Thanks Odin!

[sergiolis]

Hi Odin & Co, Since I tried to boil the spp with a mix of vinegar/water everything is much better... more speed, more flow rate, more ABV so It was a great advice and I'm doing it after every run now.... Thanks a lot

[Odin]

You are welcome!

Odin.

[sergiolis]

Hi guys, I need some help about Reflux theory...
I'm improving slowly my flow rate and getting shorter runs... But I'm still a bit confused with the whole theory. I can't overtake 2400 W yet. My thoughts are that when you are pushing the vapours considerably, let's say 2400W or more, the equilibrium is so fragile. If you don't increase the flow-rate of distillate the amount of vapour can provoque build-pressure and the condensate liquid is not capable to go down. But if you increase too much the flow-rate you can lose the equilibrium and pushing up the tails too much. So if I'm not wrong with a high power the equilibrium is much more fragile. For me it's quite difficult to maintain everything balanced beyond 2400 W.
Sorry if I'm a bit annoying but I would like to understand the whole thing. Thanks a lot and have a nice summer!!!!

[Bushman]

On a reflux still there should always be an opening to the atmosphere and unless that opening gets plugged you should not have the pressure build up you are talking about. With an LM and VM you should have some type of opening usually above the RC for vapor to escape (you don't want this vapor in the air, so if you see this happening you need to increase water to the RC or decrease heat). With a CM you have no valves to stop the vapor or liquid to continue through the pipes similar to a pot still. I have a 5500 watt element and never run it full out, it is turned up for heat up time then when my boiler temp hits 160 F I cut back a little to control the reflux. When my temp on boiler hits 170 F I usually increase water to the RC to assure 100% reflux. I do this for 1/2 hour then I ease off on the water to start taking the heads out very slow to maintain equalibrium. I do this until I hit the hearts then I let off on the water even more and take the hearts at a faster rate. It is important that it takes the still longer to catch up with your adjustments that when you tweek something (either water flow or heat) that you wait several minutes for the still to catch up and you don't over compensate. After the early tails that I want to keep then I speed it up more to capture some of the tails for my feints.

[skow69]

Equilibrium is always a balance of power input and product takeoff. For obvious reasons.

You're running a 2" boka at 2400 watts. How much faster do you think you should go?

[sergiolis]

You are right skow69 and Bushman. We say here a set phrase: Cada maestrillo tiene su librillo , something like Every teacher has his book.
I'm just trying to learn something of every of you. For instance, Dad300 said you can pick up the heads quite fast and Odin has demonstrated he can run his 2" Boka at 2800 W. So I was playing a bit trying to get a bit more than 2400 W because I thought if Odin can do it we can do it too. At the moment 2400W is my limit and I have to say that for me it is a quite critical and fragile situation. If I get a bit distracted I lose the equilibrium. Anyway I got several times 40ml/min on hearts. But I'm sure Odin and Dad300, to mention who I have known here, are running faster and better. It's just a challenge. I like to improve my boka eventually... I made a stainless steel condenser inspired on Dad300 and it works much better, I build a sight-glass and I can see when is almost flooding and so on, just trying to improve and having fun. But actually I would like to understand everything that is happening inside a Boka and that's quite difficult and I still have many gaps.
Odin mentioned that when you push too much power the big amount of vapour could block the liquid dropping down the column. I was trying to say that when I was talking about pressure build-up.

[sergiolis]

My new condenser

[Edwin Croissant]

Put the scrubby like this:



and connect the water supply to the top so that the center return is hot.

For more information see this post

[sergiolis]

Thanks Edwin, I did it, now the scrubber is inside the coil.
Man I wanted to express my gratitude for your advice about the stem of the needle-valve. I found a kit with the new stem and some gaskets only for a few euros and I think is working better. So I didn't need to change the whole valve
I guess do you mean to connect the water supply to the outside coil, Don't you?
thanks a lot Edwin

[DAD300]

Good show sergiolis.
It is a balancing act. I've work on a 4" column of SPP for a year now and just can't seem to get the right power and volume of vapor in the darn thing. It works, but not at the same efficiency of the 2" or 3" on a keg.

Edwin,
I like the short coil. I've had as little as five turns in a coil, but you have only four there...I like it!

I saw 25' of 1" CSST the other day at a surplus store. I actually talked myself out of buying it...but If I had a 6" dia column...

[Hound Dog]

DAD, have you tried rocks in the larger column for a comparison? I bet it evens out and still gives good results.

[Edwin Croissant]

Man I wanted to express my gratitude for your advice about the stem of the needle-valve. I found a kit with the new stem and some gaskets only for a few euros and I think is working better. So I didn't need to change the whole valve

Thank you Good thinking

I guess do you mean to connect the water supply to the outside coil, Don't you?

Yes, that is exactly what I wanted say, couldn't find the words. I have no idea why it works better when the lowest part of the coil is warm

I like the short coil. I've had as little as five turns in a coil, but you have only four there...I like it!
I saw 25' of 1" CSST the other day at a surplus store. I actually talked myself out of buying it...but If I had a 6" dia column...

Thank you Please note that this was made to measure the capacity and deliberately made undersized.
1" CSST, I am thinking about vacuum steam heating, with 5 meters I could transfer 3kW with 30C temperature difference. But that is for another topic

[sergiolis]

I suppose It works better because the outside coil has more surface and the hot vapour finds more cold and warm surface to condensate

[skow69]

I think it's the equivalent of a counter flow heat exchanger. With the coldest coolant farthest from the heat source.

[sergiolis]

Hi guys! I'm so happy because I could solve my crazy needle-valve It was a siphon problem, a big problem solved with a really tiny solution of 1mm hole. I could run at 42ml/min without problems in an almost perfect equilibrium. Thanks a lot guys for your help. It was difficult to find it but finally I got it. If I wouldn't have seen the post of a siphon problem I would still be breaking my head. I was running at about 2350W but i think I could push it a bit more without disruption...

[sergiolis]

Hi guys!!
sorry about so many pictures... I was so excited.. I tried to delete them but too late..
One Q.
which is exactly the function of copper scrubbers or copper SPP (catalyst) at the bottom of the column?
If you are using a copper column is it necessary too?
thanks in advance

[Hound Dog]

Hi guys!!
sorry about so many pictures... I was so excited.. I tried to delete them but too late..
One Q.
which is exactly the function of copper scrubbers or copper SPP (catalyst) at the bottom of the column?
If you are using a copper column is it necessary too?
thanks in advance

Lots of opinions on that one. Mine is that a copper column is plenty of copper. But you know what they say opinions are like.......

[joeymac]

I've read up on quite a few of these SSP threads and think I'm going to make the switch from all-copper mesh to Stainless SPP with a bit of copper mesh on top & bottom. I'm running a 2"x36" boka right now with all copper mesh and get near azeo, but have to slow down to do it. After everything I've read today, I think adding some SPP will get me there and do it more quickly. Problem is, that I'm having trouble finding where to buy some. Some people mentioned a "Big Swede" on Ebay, but it appears none is on ebay. Is there a good US source for this stuff?

I do have a lathe and am quite handy... is it worth the trouble to make my own jig and setup to make only 2L of SSP from stainless welding wire? It would probably be close to $40 alone in just to get 6LBS of wire and then I'd have to refine my method. If I'm only packing about 2"x30"... is all that trouble worth it over just buying some SPP?

[bitter]

Odin can pipe in but I think he is selling it.

I want to move to SPP also.. but not sure I want to link my name to this stuff to have it come through Canada Customs. Hence.... being using copper blocker...

B

[Monkeyman88]

Odin can pipe in but I think he is selling it.

I want to move to SPP also.. but not sure I want to link my name to this stuff to have it come through Canada Customs. Hence.... being using copper blocker...

B

I think Odin stopped selling due to needing all he was making for his gear he is selling.
I think there is a link or two to sellers in the classified forum.

[bitter]

Dooh.. Thats too bad!

B