Jimbo's Electric Conversion

[HDNB]

zactly. (drawing 1)

-> is phase1 power
<- is phase 2 power

=240vac.

no neutral present.

same as download/file.php?id=24430&mode=view" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

and bacards or forwards, if you hook an ohm meter up to that, you would be measuring the mains transformer, the scr and the element all in parallel....but thats not how an ohm meter is used.

[HDNB]

the second drawing would be if you were pulling both live feeds from the same phase...which would be no voltage differential. therefore no work being done.

[raketemensch]

+10 points to our monkey friend, I am set up like drawing 2. Maybe one of these will still work set up as drawing 1... There is a basic principle here that I'm missing.

Well, wait... In terms of actual wiring, red-to-black and whatnot, aren't they the same? I don't control the direction of the flow...

[HDNB]

just reading back over this, i think i can see why this is a difficult concept to follow.

what seems obvious, can get lost in the translation of current flow... even with pictures...

i think i'm out of my element trying to explain.

good luck R, try not to let the smoke out of yourself!!

[Monkeyman88]

That's why I said earlier on to try it on just 110v.

[raketemensch]

That's why I said earlier on to try it on just 110v.

I've ordered a new one, when it eventually gets here on the slow boat from China I'll give that a shot.

Meanwhile I'll just keep running at full-bore on 110. Six hours for a 10-gallon run isn't great, but it's doable.

[Monkeyman88]

Yea. Know what you mean. I started with a 1500w element for 45L charges. Lol

Maybe get an electrician to wire up an outlet for your "welder" or "dryer" haha

[cranky]

I read through these posts and it makes me damn glad I spent all those years rebuilding that antique house with the bad wiring. (plumbing, roof, walls, foundation, flooring and everything else) because I learned enough about electrical to handle the simple build I did with only a few months research. I don't know what I would have done with no basic knowledge of electricity. Now I find house electricity so easy to understand I have no problems doing basic wiring like adding a 220 outlet so I could run my still.

[raketemensch]

Heh, I hear ya, cranky. I've gutted and rewired at least half of a 1910 house, as well as a few other kitchens and bathrooms. That's why I'm so baffled with this recent failure. It all seems so straightforward. I've even posted my setup on a forum full of master electricians who are stumped by it.

My feeds are coming from different buses in the sub-panel, which I believe means that they're different phases, so they should be flowing correctly.

I'll get there eventually.

[HDNB]

i can't help myself... dammit.

your feeds have to be coming from both P1 and P2 or they will not create 240V

the problem can realy only be:
1. element shorted internally (test with ohmmeter)
2.element shorted to ground (test with ohmmeter)
3. scr not rated for 240 (rtfi)
4. two bad scr's back to back (unlikely but not impossible...i once had 4 bad thermostats for a chevy 350 that were "new in a box" from the parts store...5th time was the charm!) (buy another one!)
5. scr current handling capability less than load demand. (rtfi, buy a bigger one)

i really got to shut up about this though. i use an ssr, so i'm just parroting others instructions. never actually wired one up...but it can't be that hard!

[HDNB]

for my sanity, can you please post pictures of every inch of this installation?

I have read and re-read and searched for any inconsistancies that point to a single fault...but nothing is gelling. I don't know about you but i'm to the point of needing to find the answer.

[raketemensch]

for my sanity, can you please post pictures of every inch of this installation?

I have read and re-read and searched for any inconsistancies that point to a single fault...but nothing is gelling. I don't know about you but i'm to the point of needing to find the answer.

Heh, believe me, I'm not exaggerating when I say that it keeps me awake at night.

I ordered one of these, which looks even simpler. I'm working from home today, so I'm going to go through it from the panel out. I'll take pics as I go.

It says, right in the ad, "I am sure it the right thing you need now." Who am I to argue?

[Jimbo]

When you find it youre gonna smack yourself in the head. Im certain its something incredibly stupid. Usually is. ohm every bit of your circuit starting with the cables (unplug first please or youll let the smoke out of your meter too LOL)

[Monkeyman88]

If I'm reading past posts correctly, you need to have both 110 lines on a different phase. Is it possible that even though you are pulling from two different bus's that they are still the same phase, just on a different fuse? Is there a way to test that?

[raketemensch]

If I'm reading past posts correctly, you need to have both 110 lines on a different phase. Is it possible that even though you are pulling from two different bus's that they are still the same phase, just on a different fuse? Is there a way to test that?

I think that if they were on the same phase, I would only get 110 when testing hot pole to hot pole. I'm not 100% certain of that, though. This question has troubled me, too.

[HDNB]

If I'm reading past posts correctly, you need to have both 110 lines on a different phase. Is it possible that even though you are pulling from two different bus's that they are still the same phase, just on a different fuse? Is there a way to test that?

I think that if they were on the same phase, I would only get 110 when testing hot pole to hot pole. I'm not 100% certain of that, though. This question has troubled me, too.

nope!

bus1 to neutral =120
bus 2 to neutral =120
bus to bus = 240

you measured 240 at the scr so you are correct to that point.


if you measured voltage from bus 1 to bus 1, you would see no voltage...they are at the same potential. thats how people get electrocuted to death. ( i thought there was no power there!! as St Peter hands them the Darwin award)

edited 5 times for clarity... to prove this to yourself you can test right at the panel with your meter. touching only the probes of the meter and nothing else.

[raketemensch]

to prove this to yourself you can test right at the panel with your meter. touching only the probes of the meter and nothing else.

Great, now I need to learn to levitate, too. This hobby is never-ending.

[HDNB]

to prove this to yourself you can test right at the panel with your meter. touching only the probes of the meter and nothing else.

Great, now I need to learn to levitate, too. This hobby is never-ending.

hahaha. i really tried for clarity. but yep, that is another interpretation. i think that's what makes this hard to explain with out pictures.

but if you could levitate and work with only one hand, you'd make a spectacular electrician.

[raketemensch]

Doesn't this test:

bus1 to neutral =120
bus 2 to neutral =120
bus to bus = 240

you measured 240 at the scr so you are correct to that point.

pretty much prove the same results as this test?:

if you measured voltage from bus 1 to bus 1, you would see no voltage...they are at the same potential. thats how people get electrocuted to death. ( i thought there was no power there!! as St Peter hands them the Darwin award)

For the record, I checked my element, it's at 10.5ohms, which sounds about right to me. I'm heading out to HomeDepot in a few to pick up a real project box so that I can stop trying to work in a plastic wastebasket, so I'll probably leave this project alone until the new SCR gets here from China, since the ones I've got are blown. I went through 3 bad, cracked distributor caps (remember those?) from the factory one time, so it's possible they were both bad. Either way, I don't really have what I need here to do a real test anyway.

[sambedded]

so I'll probably leave this project alone until the new SCR gets here from China, since the ones I've got are blown. I went through 3 bad, cracked distributor caps (remember those?) from the factory one time, so it's possible they were both bad. Either way, I don't really have what I need here to do a real test anyway.

Try to troubleshoot your problem step-by-step.
When you get your new SCR wire it to 120V and test on incandescent lamp.

If it works fine (as a dimmer) connect it to 240V. You can use same lamp bulb for test , just go slowly from zero position up to the half turn , otherwise you blow up a lamp bulb.

That if it works OK connect your heater.

[FreeMountainHermit]

sambedded, sorry for butting in,Sir.

Does the unit in your pic have a fan ?

[Monkeyman88]

It looks like it does.

[sambedded]

Yes it has a fan.

[FreeMountainHermit]

Got a link??

Several out there that look the same to me.

FMH sez a big thank you, Sir !!!

[Jimbo]

The newest models have built in fans, and a metal box. Very slick http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC110V-220V-75A ... SwEeFVIeKP" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I wonder how many people burned up their SCR's and/or shocked the shit out of themselves to persuade the Chinese to wrap it in a box with a fan?

This line is a stumper, always fun trying to read Chinglish.... "Trigger circuit voltage regulator IC precise control without lag, then shut resistive load from 10V to 0 after opening from the transfer, to the maximum close to the input supply voltage" Sambedded, what the hell are they trying to tell us?

[FreeMountainHermit]

Thanks Jimbo.

Pay attention dude. Nice guys finish last or so I'm tole.

Did you not get that memo ?

FMH

[FreeMountainHermit]

A friend writes/publishes tech manuals. After he gets done with his end and sends them to China for printing it's a crap shoot to wait and see if they're not translated into Swahili or such.

Much of our language just doesn't cross over.

[HDNB]

Doesn't this test:

bus1 to neutral =120
bus 2 to neutral =120
bus to bus = 240

you measured 240 at the scr so you are correct to that point.

pretty much prove the same results as this test?:

if you measured voltage from bus 1 to bus 1, you would see no voltage...they are at the same potential. thats how people get electrocuted to death. ( i thought there was no power there!! as St Peter hands them the Darwin award)

For the record, I checked my element, it's at 10.5ohms, which sounds about right to me. I'm heading out to HomeDepot in a few to pick up a real project box so that I can stop trying to work in a plastic wastebasket, so I'll probably leave this project alone until the new SCR gets here from China, since the ones I've got are blown. I went through 3 bad, cracked distributor caps (remember those?) from the factory one time, so it's possible they were both bad. Either way, I don't really have what I need here to do a real test anyway.

in my mind test one would be the same as picture 1 that MM posted, and test 2 would be the same as picture2 that MM posted...that whole interpretation thing.

test both posts on the element to the keg to make sure they are "open" or Infinite ohms, not shorted to ground...anyway you want to say it....thats the final test to prove the element... 10.5 is in the ballpark for post to post on it.

[Monkeyman88]

I don't think it's the element as he can run it without the controller on 110v.

To test if it's the controller you could wire the element straight up to 220v, that's if you wanted to risk blowing your element if you have in fact used the wrong phase wires. Or any other 240v thing you have. How hard are 240v light bulbs to find?

[cranky]

to prove this to yourself you can test right at the panel with your meter. touching only the probes of the meter and nothing else.

Great, now I need to learn to levitate, too. This hobby is never-ending.

Levitating is simply the act of throwing yourself at the ground and missing, what could be easier?