20 years in aging? for the hobby... Part 1

[Bagasso]

Bagasso, found this ages ago, might be useful in this discussion.

While it does provide info about the different roles that other chemicals play in the characteristic of drinks, it isn't exactly what I was pointing out.

I guess my point was that all distillates share general characteristics. One of these is that the first section of any run is hot and solventy. They may differ in amounts but every one has a certain amount.

I tried to think of an example and I came up with citric acid in citrus fruits. They all have a shared characteristic, acidity. Looking at the taste differences between distillates, even those of the same type, is like looking at the taste differences between lemons, limes and oranges.

It's the same situation. Just like all those fruits, even one type of orange differs from another, they have that one thing that they share.

So just like a lemon has a "bite", when compared to an orange, it's because it has that one chemical in abundance. Every other chemical that gives it its lemon taste is important to identify it as a lemon but the thing that makes you pucker up and cringe is the amount of citric acid.

[S-Cackalacky]

A few things I'm seeing in this discussion -

1. Fast extraction of the wood (oak) compounds using heat and pressure (nuke?).
2. Temperature cycles throughout the process (140 dF?).
3. Pressure cycles throughout the process (how?).
4. Introduction of O2 into the aging environment (how?).
5. Are there others?

If all these things contribute to the rapid aging of spirits, how do we accomplish the mechanics of actually doing it? Some parts of the process seem simpler than others. I think I have step 1 fairly well dialed in with my single cycle low power nuking process. The introduction of heat to the process, whether it be constant or cycled, would seem to be relatively simple. The other two elements, pressure and O2, would seem to be a bit more problematic. Pressurization can be accomplished in cycles with a water bath or in the microwave, but if those are the only methods available, how often and for how long? And, what about O2? Would occasional exposure to air and shaking be enough? I guess the ultimate goal would be to find a way to do all this automatically.

My goal is to find a protocol that works to my own satisfaction. Does anyone else have any ideas as to the mechanics of a workable process?

[Bagasso]

Are there others?

I think that ultrasound, aerating and heating in open container or at least with loose fitting lids gets the angels their share quicker.

They will also be doing other things but I bet that is probably the most noticable change early on. After getting the VOCs out of the liquid and getting the oak leached into it, all you need is time and heat.

Rule of thumb in chemistry is more heat = less time.

[NZChris]

I think the talk about pressure being effective is just an internet myth. Once a piece of wood is saturated, cycling the pressure isn't going to make any difference because there is bugger all in it that can compress/decompress to force liquid in and out.

[S-Cackalacky]

So, after the initial nuking for the pressure treatment to extract the wood compounds, do most agree that it's probably not necessary after that?

What I intend to do for heat is to put the aging container in a Styrofoam cooler, heat up a cherry pit pack, throw it in the cooler, cover it, and repeat the process maybe every other day (for how long?).

That leaves oxygenation. Is shaking and airing for short periods enough? I'm thinking that anything longer will only release too much to the angels. I also have a bottle of O2 that I could use to inject the gas into the aging jar, but I would have to use a glass or ss tube into the jar. Any other thoughts on this?

My next run, in a few weeks, will be apple brandy that I will be aging on oak (maybe cherry). I'll try to get a process plan together between now and then and give it a go. If anyone sees any shortcomings to what I plan to do, please let me know.

[NZChris]

Oxygenation is easy. Leave headroom in the container. Too much oxygen is possibly worse than insufficient, so I 3/4 fill the container, then leave it corked through the whole process.

[S-Cackalacky]

Oxygenation is easy. Leave headroom in the container. Too much oxygen is possibly worse than insufficient, so I 3/4 fill the container, then leave it corked through the whole process.

Thanks, I usually do leave a good bit of head space. I also usually open the jars and let them air for an hour or two every couple of weeks or so. I'll just continue my usual process for the oxygenation part of it.

[NZChris]

Shaking isn't needed in my system. Because it is heated from below, there are convection currents whenever the element is on. Some heat escapes through the insulation at the top of the container which causes reflux in the air space.

Apart from checking the cork as the temperature rises, it is set and forget.

[Bagasso]

I don't see any significant oxidation of ethanol at room temp without reagents or catalysts.

Industrial oxidation happens with gaseous ethanol over a copper catalyst at 300º. And even then it is only 20-50%.

[kiwi Bruce]

I also have a bottle of O2 that I could use to inject the gas into the aging jar,

This is a bad idea. O2 is such a powerful oxidizer that it COULD, I didn't say WILL, make cask strength ethanol ignite/explode. This is the same as the warning about putting oil or grease on the tanks gauges, or using it to blow dust off your clothes.

I recommend a fish tank bubbler. If you can rig your still up to reflux you can also add heat. To reflux you need a length of strength column up from the still head about 18 -24 inches on a 3 gallon pot with your condenser sitting vertically on top of that, so that as the air drivers the spirit into the column, the condenser forces it back down into the pot. Adjust the temp so that you don't lose any spirit. (I have not been able to go warmer than 90 to 100 f without smelling spirit, so I back it back 10 f when I do) I reflux for thirty minutes at a time and repeat this over three days. An interesting note :- I can't taste a difference until it has rested for 2 or 3 days. I think this is the dissolved air/oxygen having it's effect.
Taste note :- It's note smoother, at least not at the start, but pleasantly different.

[raketemensch]

As I've mentioned before, I leave my jars in a cabinet above our oven, so they get heat cycled every time my wife uses it.

What I've been doing lately is rubber-banding a coffee filter over the top of the jar and letting it air all the time.

The angels don't take that much, and I'm hoping it will also speed up the oxidation. I swirl every few days.

[S-Cackalacky]

Rak, at what points do you do tastings during the process? Are you getting good flavor changes in a shorter amount of time?

[S-Cackalacky]

I also have a bottle of O2 that I could use to inject the gas into the aging jar,

This is a bad idea. O2 is such a powerful oxidizer that it COULD, I didn't say WILL, make cask strength ethanol ignite/explode. This is the same as the warning about putting oil or grease on the tanks gauges, or using it to blow dust off your clothes.

I recommend a fish tank bubbler. If you can rig your still up to reflux you can also add heat. To reflux you need a length of strength column up from the still head about 18 -24 inches on a 3 gallon pot with your condenser sitting vertically on top of that, so that as the air drivers the spirit into the column, the condenser forces it back down into the pot. Adjust the temp so that you don't lose any spirit. (I have not been able to go warmer than 90 to 100 f without smelling spirit, so I back it back 10 f when I do) I reflux for thirty minutes at a time and repeat this over three days. An interesting note :- I can't taste a difference until it has rested for 2 or 3 days. I think this is the dissolved air/oxygen having it's effect.
Taste note :- It's note smoother, at least not at the start, but pleasantly different.

Point taken on the 02 issue.

[kiwi Bruce]

1. Fast extraction of the wood (oak) compounds using heat and pressure (nuke?).
2. Temperature cycles throughout the process (140 dF?).
3. Pressure cycles throughout the process (how?).
4. Introduction of O2 into the aging environment (how?).
5. Are there others?

Temperature cycles throughout the process (140 F?) I do this in an air tight Ball Jar with oak. After the first 6 hours I take it out and let it cool and taste it. I'm looking for a vanilla taste that's just starting to go over the top. If I don't have it after the first 6 hrs I put it back for at hour, and I repeat the in hourly steps until I get the taste I want. This - Too much vanilla taste - will mellow out to a great flavor after Oden's recommended "long Rest"

Pressure cycles throughout the process, I rely on the pressure inside the Ball Jar for this.

Introduction of O2 into the aging environment, I have used a reflux tower, I'm seeing this time what it's like without it.

Are there others?, yes I think the count on this post so far is up to 22. BUT some we know don't work, eg Vibrating the spirit for 12 plus hours... Jimbo's dildo motor ager, according to him, a total flop

The problem I'm having is keeping track of what's happening when I try five or six different things to the same batch of whisky. Each step requires keeping a saved amount of drink to compare back too, this can start to be a large amount of whisky to keep on hand.

[raketemensch]

Rak, at what points do you do tastings during the process? Are you getting good flavor changes in a shorter amount of time?

I don't have a good frame of reference yet, so far I've only declared 3 jars to be drinkable, and the first had questionable/greedy cuts.

That said, it's starting to taste much better at 3 months, even with too much heads/tails in it.

[S-Cackalacky]

Rak, at what points do you do tastings during the process? Are you getting good flavor changes in a shorter amount of time?

I don't have a good frame of reference yet, so far I've only declared 3 jars to be drinkable, and the first had questionable/greedy cuts.

That said, it's starting to taste much better at 3 months, even with too much heads/tails in it.

I'm assuming you mean that it taste better compared to a more traditional method after the same period of time.

KB, without going back and reviewing all 22 steps (processes), I wonder how many of the ones that work actually serve the same purpose as others. I'm curious about how you heat your "Ball" jar. And, is any pressurization just incidental, or do you see some advantage to it? Do you think after you get a time protocol dialed in for the heat cycles, you will be able to repeat the process without doing taste samples along the way?

This has been a really interesting and productive discussion. I hope something comes out of it that we can all hang our hats on.

[kiwi Bruce]

A quote I made in the beginning, " It is my opinion that 80% of the taste of a whisky is from #1 alone, and that 2 to 14 only provide 20% of the taste. This makes it extremely difficult to manage any tests if #1 is none first. " At that time we were still at 14. #1 being Oaking. I am coming to the feeling that without the oak, 2 -22 won't work. So it becomes very subjective as to how it works, or if one of them works at all. I'm chasing a phantom success. I aged a basic single malt at ended up with a great end whisky. I thought I had good notes but I'm having trouble replicating it.

[NZChris]

Treat some new white dog in whatever your invention is and don't drink the control before the time's up.

I've done it. The first taste was definitely different, the second, not so much. Opinion is divided on whether, or not, it was an improvement. I'll try them again later.

[kiwi Bruce]

I'd like to explain how I do my Oaking. I cut up used bourbon cask side staves into 1X1X5 inches. These fit into a pint mason or ball jar. I use two of these in a quart jar and four in a half gallon. I used to stick a piece of oak in the spirit and wait, I found I get a better result by putting the sealed jars, with the wood, in a crock pot set on medium, no lid just hot water. My crook pot on med is just under 140 F, I let it go for three hours, then turn it off, let it come to room temp and taste. I'm looking for an "over the top" vanilla taste. I've never got this from just letting the whisky sit on the oak. If I don't get the results I want in three hours I'll do an hour long re-heat and keep doing re-heats until I do. My oak sticks are divided into two groups. Unused :- these either have never been in the spirit or still float in the spirit. Used :- these sink in the spirit. When aging I replace the new oak with an old, used piece. I found that the whisky seems to go backward if it has no wood. I let the whisky, still sealed in the jar, rest for two days before re-tasting. the drink will have mellowed and the "over the top" vanilla taste will settled down nicely.
I think this accomplishes 80% of the taste of the finished whisky. The rest is now tweaking, however finding the taste of an improvement becomes very hard when the whisky already tastes so good.

[raketemensch]

Huh, interesting cut, for lots of surface area.

[NZChris]

There are already plenty of threads about making oak tea with your likker. i thought this one would concentrate on accelerated aging

[S-Cackalacky]

NZC, I think we're all still searching for that holy grail here. I have some things I want to try, but need to wait for some new product. And, you're right, there's been a lot of talk about theories to get there, but I don't know that anyone has claimed that eureka moment yet.

[firewater69]

Huh, interesting cut, for lots of surface area.

lots of end grain surface area, fine if you like oak tea.

[Bagasso]

Its all oak tea.

[firewater69]

Its all oak tea.

I guess so if it makes up 80% of the flavor of your whiskey, I would hate to think I worked so hard to develop a recipe with just the right balance of grains to have it taste like a damned barrel in the end. I'm all for oaking, just not to that extent. I would agree that most commercial offerings probably do get 80% of their flavor from the barrel, I strive to make a better product.

[Bagasso]

I guess so if it makes up 80% of the flavor of your whiskey,

Don't need to split hairs to try to set yours apart.

Matters of taste don't change the ingredients you are using.

[kiwi Bruce]

Its all oak tea.

I guess so if it makes up 80% of the flavor of your whiskey, I would hate to think I worked so hard to develop a recipe with just the right balance of grains to have it taste like a damned barrel in the end. I'm all for oaking, just not to that extent. I would agree that most commercial offerings probably do get 80% of their flavor from the barrel, I strive to make a better product.

There are already plenty of threads about making oak tea with your likker. i thought this one would concentrate on accelerated aging

It's ALL subjective. Lets say I'm wrong, Lets say it's more like 50/50 AND I also like the sticks P.R. designed all long grain oak. What we're looking at here is every other thing that we can do BEYOND just oaking. We're now up to 23, the last being :- putting a coffee filter over the jar and letting it breath. T-Pee's threat was extremely valuable and explored a lot of the avenues open to us, in oaking, but I feel that the taste that oak gives spirit is A major if not THE major contributor to the taste of the finished drink. I tried to age my white spirit before I added my oak pieces and was disappointed. However when I did the same adjustments after the oaking and with old oak pieces still in play, I think the results were amazing.

What did I do.... I ultrasounded the spirit, using the protocol Odin recommends.( In a hot ultrasound bath approx 140f bombarded 3 minutes on...5 minutes rest, repeated 5 times then let cool-off and rest. Oden recommends the fridge for two to three days)
I did an air pump reflux at low temp (under 90F) for half an hour, over three days.
Then I did a second hot water bath but without any wood in the jars.
Lastly I did an Oden's long sleep in a cold beer fridge for five weeks.
Is this rapid maturation? This took a total of nine weeks, from Oaking to sleeping.
As I said...I think the results are amazing.

[S-Cackalacky]

KB, that sounds like a good process - especially if it works to your likein'. Nine weeks doesn't seem like a long wait for an "amazing" product. My current process is about 3 months and I don't think it's delivering anything near what I would consider amazing. Please explain "air pump reflux".

[kiwi Bruce]

HOW I REFLUX
I rig my small still to reflux by adding an 18 inch length of strength copper column up from the still head. (Mine is a 9 quart pot) I put my liebig condenser vertically on the columb. I use a fish tank pump to provide the air. This drivers the spirit into the column, the condenser forces it back down into the pot. I adjust the temp and the air flow, so that I don't lose any spirit. (I have not been able to go warmer than 90 to 100 f without smelling spirit, so I back it back 10 f when I do) I reflux for thirty minutes at a time and repeat this over three days. I have a glass lab bubbler and I don't know if a fish tank bubbler will stand up to the heat and the ethanol. An interesting note :- I can't taste a difference until it has rested for 2 or 3 days. I think this is the dissolved air/oxygen having it's effect.
Tomorrow I'll post some pic's of my set-up.
One of the things I'd like to try next, is to use the same set-up at a higher temperature, say 140F, and try to distill using the air to push the product, but is would be a new post.

[Bagasso]

I have used an aquarium pump with a bamboo skewer, would like to try balsa, in 95ºF (35ºC) temps and noticed very little drop in abv.

It was less than 1% abv per hour but I'm sure the tight grain of the bamboo had something to do with it. My point is that if you don't mind loosing a little etho then you could keep it simple.