FLUTE TALK

[NcHooch]

NC The down comer is needed on the bottom plate to allow water to return to the boiler. The trap is necessary to keep raw vapor from bypassing the plate. Flutes do a great job of removing water. Although there is not enough plates typically to allow a complete equilibrium where fractions find there sweet spot the down comer system does allow water to work its way back down when refluxing.

MR, I think you're over-estimating the amount, and/or movement of water on the bottom plate.
If what you're saying is correct, or necessary , then a 3 plate flute with no downcomer on the bottom plate wouldn't produce 90% from fores to tails

Just stating NC that is the purpose of the design. I may be over estimating the amount of water in raw vapor. Have you run your still in this fashion? Without severe flooding? Refluxed enough you could probably make 90% with two plates. Running without a down comer I think would slow you down. Please share what you learned. We have found that flutes are quite affective at separating alcohol from water and produce 90% relatively easy but not separate fractions. 3,4,5 plates probably tastes the same with similar smearing. My guess is slight difference in speed. Maybe not though. Speed is pretty much determined by diameter.

what fashion?
I typically run a 3" flute by getting it up to temp , and stacking the plates with full reflux ...I always need to reduce power by about 50% during that time.
once I've bubbled (all) the plates for 20 minutes I start reducing the coolant to the dephlag....slowly. I try and take the first 250 ml out slowly .
then I'll keep gradually reducing the cooling to the dephlag until I get a rapid drip (just shy of a stream) and then leave it there the entire run (sometimes adding more heat as the wash gets weaker). Eventually the bottom plate(s) will get depleted and the proof will start dropping ... at that point you're pretty much finished and then I just collect the tails and shut it down .

My 4-plate flute has a downcomer on the bottom plate (with a trap) .
The two 3-plate bugles I made had no downcomer on the bottom plate.

All three seem to work the same .... There's no smearing, no flooding, and I can tell quite easily while running when the cuts start and stop. Don't get me wrong tho, I'm not making a neutral, I tend to think you'd need 6 of more plates for a reasonable neutral.

Anyway, that's why I question the downcomer on the bottom. I'd be surprised if the liquid being returned to the boiler by the bottom downcomer wasn't 100 proof. ...And if that's the case , wouldn't you rather slowly drive that alcohol up the column through the other plates?, versus letting it drain back into the boiler and constantly recirculating? My final thought, I think there's always going to be some liquid returned to the boiler either through the perforations, or between the plates and the column (wall)...if you're running it so hard that there isn't a small amount running back down, it's likely that a downcomer would be defeated by the pressure difference , and won't work anyway.

thoughts?

[mash rookie]

That’s really interesting NC. I would have thought that the first plate would flood if water was not allowed to return. I may be underestimating the amount of water in the raw vapor. There is certainly some so you must be correct that it works its way down somehow as alcohol displaces it. It may be being forced down. Vapor should be pot still strength entering the first plate chamber.

Thinking about it why does the bottom plate dry put when nearing the end of a run? Why is there not water there? What would happen if we did not use any down comers at all? Would we be able to achieve similar abv?

[Odin]

That's a small post only, MR, but the questions you ask ... feel pretty essential to me. Why does that bottom plate run dry? And on a bubble cap design, instead of a perforated plate, the contrary seems to happen (if I read it correctly): near the end of the run the bottom plate is overwhelmed with water. How come?

I am breaking my head on it. There should be some easy answer. Like on a VM stopping allmost automatically when abv of rising gasses drop to below 45/50%: density of the air outside the column is higher than inside,so the gasses rather stay inside the column.

Not saying a flute works like that (not at all), but there should be an easy explanation, just lingering behind the horizon. Or behind my horizon at least.

Odin.

[King Of Hearts]

My plates didnt run dry at the end the output just slowed. If anything the middle plate was the least amount but it was hard to tell unless you really looked inside with a light.

[ThrownOlive]

I've read through this monster of a thread and I've still got a question. I've got 4 2" caps and some 3" pipe. I'm thinking now that instead of ordering different caps or making perf plates, I may as well make a 3" flute with a single 2" cap on each level. I'll probably start with 4 of these and see how that goes. Later on I may add an additional section of column with more plates. I've got a bit of 1.5" pipe to use as up comers and 3/4" for drains that I'll attach externally. Any thoughts on this scheme? It seems pretty much in line with the designs used before but with a little bit of change forced by what I've got on hand.

This will be mounted on my 8 gal keg most likely(at least until the weather warms up and then I'll run it on the 1/2 keg outside!). So, anything I'll need to change before I get building?

[NcHooch]

I gotta assume you're talkin about making bubble caps ?...but a 2" cap inside a 3" column sounds a little oversized...that's just 3/8 of an inch around the outside.
...or did i miss something?

[ThrownOlive]

NcHooch, You've pretty much got it on the nose there. I guess I'm wondering what the space away from the bubblecaps determines. Wouldn't it have either the same effect or potentially even a better effect as the whole plate will be more likely to have an equal temp rather than more space giving a temperature differential? Maybe I'll just make the upcomers a little taller to allow for a greater liquid depth? I've got everything for the column/plates already and I can't imagine that it just won't work as long as the drains are satisfactory.

[olddog]

I run 2"caps inside a 4"column, but in my opinion, perforated plates will work better.


OD

[ThrownOlive]

Interesting. Whys that OD?

Just looked in my parts. Should have enough to do both. Will be interesting to try both caps and perfed plates to understand how they work differently.

[mash rookie]

Hi Old Dog!

Thrown olive, OD has built both perf and bubble cap. He is the flute father. If he thinks perf plates are better take his word. I have not built a bubble cap for comparison. They are generally used in brandy type stills where a full flavor is desired. Perforated plates are typically used in taller columns for whiskey or vodka.
If perforated plates provide a little better fraction separation they would be a better choice when only running four plates. Four plates will not make a neutral. Plan on making a add on packed section for neutral.

MR

[King Of Hearts]

Hi Old Dog!

Thrown olive, OD has built both perf and bubble cap. He is the flute father. If he thinks perf plates are better take his word. I have not built a bubble cap for comparison. They are generally used in brandy type stills where a full flavor is desired. Perforated plates are typically used in taller columns for whiskey or vodka.
If perforated plates provide a little better fraction separation they would be a better choice when only running four plates. Four plates will not make a neutral. Plan on making a add on packed section for neutral.

MR

I have 5 plates 1/16 holes x 180 each, I think because of MR, I just made a great white wheat vodka.

[ThrownOlive]

I was just curious what differences he saw in them. I didn't mean to denigrate his flutiness just wanted to learn from his experience.

I'm In a tiny apartment and my "workshop" is also my computer desk. Initially bubble cap construction seemed like it would fit my space restrictions, I'd read so much about needing a drill press to do the perf plates and got the bubblecap scheme in my head. I now see the error of my ways

I'll be making four perf plates now in 24" of column and potentially another 4 plate section of the bubble caps later. Glaciertanks is local to me and Mike there said they could me a 3x2" endcap reducer. I'm wondering if I gave a bit of space over the Dephleg(maybe 2"?) would the vapor be happy enough to go through that 2" cap reducer?

If anything, I'd love to try them side by side, same mash etc.

There are so many options in this craft it is absolutely mind boggling

[harley03]

Hi!
My name is Patrick and am from Sweden.
I build a 8" column in sieve plates and a have I got my inspiration from this excellent thread on perforated plates.
I intend to produce vodka and will try me on the run with 20 plates to begin with, later if it,s work a go fore 23 plates, thats my max height.
My English is note so good so a hope that you can understand me.
I want to thank OD and all who have pushed this solution forward and you are interested in seeing pictures of my 8 "column, there is on Facebook.
Falbygdens Bränneri AB is the name.

I'm not so good at adding pictures when everything is in English.

Cheers

[ThrownOlive]

Harley, post some pictures!

[harley03]

[harley03]

[/URL

[URL=http://forumbilder.se/show.aspx?iid=b5162012413494038]

[harley03]

2" 8" and 12" ferrule for a whisky plate with bubbelcaps



8" vodkaplate with 1440pc 1,5mm hole in it and 12" whiskyferrule - whisky plate that shall be with a large number of bubbelcaps.

[ThrownOlive]

Wow Harley! How big of a boiler are you setting that on?! Looks really nice so far.

I just borrowed my brothers drill press so I can get to work drilling out my plates. Stoked!

[harley03]

Hi
My boiler have a max loading of 350 liter and maybe later a switch to 500 liter, but both columns shall be standing on a bench beside bolier and a shall have a 12" outlet in top of bolier- after this all is in pure copper even all pipe, there a shall have a 20" whisky boll and after that it shall go down to 2" with 2pc of 3 way valves so a can chose were a send all steam....

Ps all my hole is stansed on a cnc stans and it toke about 10 minutes per plate, then it was totally finish from a 1,5mm copper ark in 1m*2m,
and the small hole you can se when you are looking tru the bigger hole for sight glass is for a home made cip head in pure copper in eath plate.

This is for commersial use but in small size, i have a Swedish licens, .

Cheers

[Uisge_a_Ghlinne]

A quick question gents, is anyone running a 6 or 8 inch flute and if so what is the real world product production at a given strength?

[harley03]

Very good question!

"Does anyone currently use a 6 "or 8" in flute performance that can verify the product flow and the strength, purity at a fixed number plates and how much power 6" or 8" required."


I myself will be able to answer this for about 3-4 months.

Theoretically, an 8 "column four times greater in the plate with a 4" so theoretically you can take the 4 "performance by 4 times !
I have calculated at 20 liters per hour at a strength of 96-97% and very clean ...


The strength depends on the number of plates and my goal is to get 20pc to work and when I happen to think I will get the 96- 97% regardless of the flow and I will have 500 liters of mash volume and 33,000 watts of power in an insulated boiler which is 100 cm in circumference for best effect !


but as I said it is all this theory yet, and also I would be Very Interested in the facts from others who have already started with similar facilities and sizes ..




Here bathe my dirty colon in weak citric acid, it takes about three days for it to be pure copper ..



Home made ​​cip main copper for cleaning the sieve plates and sight glass ...



The bottom plate with 2 "side entrance and 1pc sight glass so you can see any return - reflux flow back into the burning vessel ..


Cheers

[harley03]

Uppdate.

Now my columns have bath for 3 days in water with a little citrus accid in it and this is how they look nowe.
only cleaning with water after bath, a think that this shall have a lovley patina after first upp heating time..

[harley03]

Cheers

[Lunabrille]

Wow that's quite the build, Harley! Please share a video of it in action once you have it running, I would love to see it.

[harley03]

Here is a photo of a little mixed copper candy

1st sieve plate in 8 "is for Vodka, a have 20pc of them in my vodka column

Bubble Plate that a shall have for flavored spirits whiskey, rum, etc. type.

1st bubbel plate for 8" with 16st bubbelcaps and 3pcs Returns ( stilldragons kopper plate,caps and downcomers)
1st "drawing" on bubbel plate for 12" with 32st bubbelcaps and 5pcs Returns

It will be best numbers of bubbelcaps (i think) for closer together I do not want bubbelcapsen and it is still twice as many on a 12 "plate to an 8" plate. :ugeek:



Cheers

[BokaBakla]

You doing this on a cnc?

[harley03]

Yes

My 8" Sieve plate is stansed, all is stansed in a cnc stans with 1440pc of 1,5mm hole in it, and it take about 10 minits on eath plate to be finish from a big 1*2m kopparplate.
It is 1,5mm hole in 4mm square pattern

Cheers

[harley03]

4" 125cm cooler in flute look, for 225liters boiler


To this 60 gallons boiler a shall have 2pc of column to testing on it. 1pc of 4 plates in sieve plates and 1pc of 4 plates bubbelplates and off course a shall have it all in 8" and then a can tell if bubbel ore sieve is best for taste, speed, easiest to controll and more ....
I have read that sieve plates shall be better and some say that bubbelcaps is better.

Now a shall se whats a think is BEST in 8" and 4pc of plates in my yes... and a have acces to 4pc of 5500watts electric heaters...

Cheers

[harley03]

This is "missing" parts to my 8" sieve plates column, now it is complet, 20pc of plates and it shall be standing on a bench and fedeed from a 500 liters boiler and cooled with a 8"* 125cm cooler with 3pc of cranes on the side, becouse a have 2pc of columns... and the biggest is in 12" with 32pc bubbelcaps and 5pc downcomers and "only" 4pc of plates...This is for whisky..



Cheers
Sorry but my English issnt better, a hope that you understand me anyway. I am from Sweden

[Vapour trails]

Does the temperature and amount of reflux returning to the top plate have any effect on plate function? Like too cold, too much returning distillate might deactivate the top plate?