My rum doesn't taste rum. Why?

[Paname]

Hi.

First of all, i apologize for my bad english. I try to do my best to be understanble.

I'm trying to make rum, my recipe are very inspired by hook rum's recipe.
I'm using organic cane molasse (nothing else than black molasse in it) from organic food store (expensive but it's the only form i know it's sold in my country), raw cane sugar, baker yeast, plain tomato paste, lemon juice and spring water.

But my final product doesn't taste and smell like rum i know, from rum i bought at liquor store.
In my country, most of the rum sold are made from fresh cane sugar juice (rhum agricole). I never drunk a white rum made from molasse.

For people who drunk white "rhum agricole", white "molasse" rum and their own white "molasse" rum (hook rum recipe for example), could you tell me if there is a big difference in taste and smell between these different kind of rums?
Because when i smell and taste the rum i made, i recognize nothing from white "rhum agricole" i drink usually.

[Saltbush Bill]

G'day Paname
I'm not really sure were to start here but there are a few possibilities and reasons as to why you think your Rum doesn't taste like Rum.
Using Hooks recipe , Molasses and raw sugar are all going to give you a good start in the right direction

But my final product doesn't taste and smell like rum i know, from rum i bought at liquor store

Here in lays one of your problems, there are many rums made world wide , many taste similar, many dont. To confuse matters even further there are Heavy Rums and light Rums as well as those that are some were between. To add to the problem we have White Rums, Dark Rums, Jamaican Rums, Navy Rums Just to name a few. What have you been drinking and what is your idea of what rum should taste like?
Most of the worlds Brown Rums are aged on oak for quite a few years before before they are sold. How the oak is treated before the rum is aged in/on it also makes a difference to what the final product tastes like . Ive yet to taste a rum straight off the still that didnt taste pretty rough. They will all benefit from time on oak and improve greatly as time goes by. Four months on oak is the minimum time that you need to get something acceptable in my opinion, it just gets better given 6 months or a year...even more time is better and it will keep improving.

(nothing else than black molasse in it) from organic food store (expensive but it's the only form i know it's sold in my country), raw cane sugar, baker yeast, plain tomato paste, lemon juice and spring water.

I have no Idea of the amount of each ingredient you are using so cant comment on that , but I would leave out the lemon juice.
Using Bakers yeast is a step in the right direction, To get good flavour you can run your Rum ferments much hotter and faster than most other washes , 38c isnt out of the question.

For people who drunk white "rhum agricole", white "molasses" rum and their own white "molasses" rum (hook rum recipe for example), could you tell me if there is a big difference in taste and smell between these different kind of rums?

The taste you are getting should and will be very different, from my understanding rhum agricole is made with pure fresh crushed sugar can juice.

Sorry if my attempt at answering your questions is a little arse backward , but Ive had a few Rums.

[heartcut]

Hey Paname,
Good advice from Saltbush Bill. Remember too that a lot of the rum flavor is in the early tails., stop too early and the hearts by themselves can be pretty bland.

[Paname]

Thanks to take the time to answer, Saltbush Bill.

To be more precise about my recipe, i used different amount of molasse and raw sugar (for each wash i tried) to make a fermented wash at 10%abv.
I reduced the percentage of molasse for more raw sugar between my first attempt and the last one, to see if it changes the taste and smell.
At the beginning, i used brown sugar and molasse and then i bought raw sugar, when i disolved raw sugar in hot water it really smelled like fresh cane sugar juice. That's why more raw sugar and less molasse for the last attempts.

For example my last attempt was:
4,8kg raw sugar
450gr molasse
3 tbsp fresh lemon juice
2 tsp plain tomato paste
56gr baker yeast
25 liters water

I let my wash ferment in a room at 22c (too cold?).
It takes approximatly 10-14 days to reach the end of the fermentation (i only judge it by the bubble in the airlock cause i don't have a hydrometer).
Then i wait 4 more days to let the yeast settle in the bottom of the bucket.
I use a pot still and make a double distillation.

I have been drinking a lot of rums from different countries ("fresh juice cane" rum and "molasses" rum) but always rums aged in oak barrels (and i guess some companies also add caramel in their aged rums). I know the oak give a very particular and different taste to the rum.
But I have been only drinking white rum made from fresh cane juice with column still (french west indies rum).

There is only one time i drunk a bottle of jamaican white rum made in a pot still.
But i don't know if they used fresh cane juice or molasses (it wasn't write on the bottle).
The taste and smell were totally different from the white rum i drink usually. But also totally different of the rum i made (even if the two use pot still distillation).

I gonna make my rum aged with oak to see how it tastes then.

[Paname]

Hi heartcut,
I have to practice more to make better cut. I'm a newbie and i use a small still (10 liters).
Do you think the early tails can make a really big difference on the general flavor of the alcohol?

By the way, about the totally different taste and smell of the white jamaican rum made in a pot still i talked about in my last post, when i smell it and drink it, if it wasn't write on the bottle it was rum, i could not say it was.

[Rivver]

Hi Paname,

I tried several attempts at making rum a few years ago and got some good advice from a fellow board member here. I ran mostly with molasses and brown sugar and in the end did not end up with anything that tasted like rum either. Another board member here taught me a little trick that I tried and it worked well. I would run a striping run on my first run and add all the low wines from the first run into a second run of wash. I did NOT do two strip followed by a spirit run as I wanted the flavor more than the %. You should easily be able to get over 65% on the second run with the additional low wines included.

The trick was after running it through the still, I saved some of the backset (what is left in the boiler after a run) and added a small amount back to the rum after I made my cuts. So for example, if I had 2 quarts of drinkable liquor after the run I would add a very small amount (25-50ml) back to it, and then also add some charred oak and cinnamon in with it to age.

The only issue I had with it was that during the run, some of the molasses burned on my element and it carried through on the taste a little bit. So my plan was to keep a little bit of wash the next time, but I never got around to doing it to see if that helped. Other than the slightly noticeable burnt flavor, the deep flavor of the rum really came through and tasted great.

It's worth experimenting with a bit, to see what works good for you and the flavor you are trying to achieve. Also, the oak that I used was not new oak staves, it was oak that I had used previously on a bourbon I had made.

[T-Pee]

Do you think the early tails can make a really big difference on the general flavor of the alcohol?

Absolutely. Blending is everything and where this becomes an artform.

tp

[NZChris]

The basic flavor comes from the molasses, sugar adds no flavor at all, so the more sugar you add, the weaker the flavor is.

Molasses and raw sugar are extracted from cane juice at ratios around 1:2. So to replicate the ratios in cane juice as used in rhum agricole, 1kg of molasses to 2kg sugar. The ratio you used will give much less flavor than in rhum agricole.

Dark rums are generally made with straight molasses, with no sugar addition, so have more flavor again.

Also, there is more flavor added by the use of dunder pits.

Then there are the cuts to consider, the number of distillations, the type of still, at what point the dunder is added.

Then you need to decide how you are going to age it.

[ben stiller]

They will all benefit from time on oak and improve greatly as time goes by. Four months on oak is the minimum time that you need to get something acceptable in my opinion, it just gets better given 6 months or a year...even more time is better and it will keep improving.

Saltbush, How long do you recommend oaking rum? I am asking about staves not barrels. Is there a danger of over oaking rum like there is with whiskey? I have been taking my rum off of oak after about 3 months and then aging it in glass. It has been working well but I am always open to new ideas

Paname, although you said that your rum tastes different, do you like it or are you after the taste that you are used to. My rum white
off the still is not very good in my opinion. Give it 3 months on oak and suddenly it is quite good and gets better with age.

Curious if anyone knows how long commercial white rum is aged?

[Paname]

Thank for the trick, Rivver. I should give it a try.

Another board member here taught me a little trick that I tried and it worked well. I would run a striping run on my first run and add all the low wines from the first run into a second run of wash. I did NOT do two strip followed by a spirit run as I wanted the flavor more than the %. You should easily be able to get over 65% on the second run with the additional low wines included.
The trick was after running it through the still, I saved some of the backset (what is left in the boiler after a run) and added a small amount back to the rum after I made my cuts. So for example, if I had 2 quarts of drinkable liquor after the run I would add a very small amount (25-50ml) back to it, and then also add some charred oak and cinnamon in with it to age.

How do you proceed for the cuts when you distillate low wine + fresh wash in the same run?
I make my cuts for the foreshots and heads when i run the spirit run (only low wines).

Do you think the early tails can make a really big difference on the general flavor of the alcohol?

Absolutely. Blending is everything and where this becomes an artform.

tp

I need to get more experience in cutting and blending, no doubt about it. That's what i like in this hobby, always something to learn and to try out.

The basic flavor comes from the molasses, sugar adds no flavor at all, so the more sugar you add, the weaker the flavor is.

Molasses and raw sugar are extracted from cane juice at ratios around 1:2. So to replicate the ratios in cane juice as used in rhum agricole, 1kg of molasses to 2kg sugar. The ratio you used will give much less flavor than in rhum agricole.

I used the "hook rum" recipe's ratio of molasses and raw sugar in my first wash. The taste and smell were very strong, but totally different of what i was looking for.
That's why i reduced the ratio of molasses, to try to approach the taste i was looking for.

I think the issue is that i only know white "rhum agricole" as base.
When i made my first wash of rum, it was the first time i smelled and tasted molasses (it's not something usual to use in my country, it's not sell in supermarket, only sell in small jar at organic food store).
I was very surprise, it really doesn't taste and smell at all like fresh cane sugar juice.
I would like to find a white "commercial" rum from molasses, to judge the difference with the white "rhum agricole" that i know.

Paname, although you said that your rum tastes different, do you like it or are you after the taste that you are used to. My rum white
off the still is not very good in my opinion. Give it 3 months on oak and suddenly it is quite good and gets better with age.

For the moment i only tasted it "white", the taste and smell are good, different but good. I will make it aged. Maybe it will become closer to the taste and smell of aged rum i drunk.

Curious if anyone knows how long commercial white rum is aged?

I don't know for other white rums, but "rhum agricole" from Martinique (French West Indies) have to age (by law) absolute minimum 8 weeks in stainless steel cistern.

[Monkeyman88]

Bacardi is a white rum made from molasses.

[thecroweater]

Rum can taste a bit hot and raw fresh out of the still, it takes time. Commercial brown or black rum is almost invariably flavoured and coloured by adding caramel, if you want that flavour you have to do likewise and that is the fact of the matter

[NZChris]

I think the issue is that i only know white "rhum agricole" as base.
When i made my first wash of rum, it was the first time i smelled and tasted molasses (it's not something usual to use in my country, it's not sell in supermarket, only sell in small jar at organic food store).
I was very surprise, it really doesn't taste and smell at all like fresh cane sugar juice.

It sounds like you would be better off not using molasses. Use fresh cane juice, or if you can't get that, try Panella (by any of it's regional names), and don't add sugar.

[thecroweater]

Well this is my latest effort Here

[Paname]

Bacardi is a white rum made from molasses.

True, and i can find it here.
Do you know one wich is made with pot still and not filtered on charcoal? (I know i'm a bit demanding )

I think the issue is that i only know white "rhum agricole" as base.
When i made my first wash of rum, it was the first time i smelled and tasted molasses (it's not something usual to use in my country, it's not sell in supermarket, only sell in small jar at organic food store).
I was very surprise, it really doesn't taste and smell at all like fresh cane sugar juice.

It sounds like you would be better off not using molasses. Use fresh cane juice, or if you can't get that, try Panella (by any of it's regional names), and don't add sugar.

I would like to be able to use fresh cane juice but i can't find it in western europe unfortunatly.
I made some search about panela. I can find Rapadura sugar here (wich is the same thing as panela according to Wikipedia).
I think it's what i need.

Well this is my latest effort Here

Muscovado and rapadura seem to be the same things.
I read your thread thecroweater, but i don't know if i understand your recipe well. Did you use only muscovado or did you had some molasses too?

[thecroweater]

no no need to add it as there is no molasses taken out, its justed dehydrated cane juice

[Paname]

no no need to add it as there is no molasses taken out, its justed dehydrated cane juice

Ok. I think i really should try a wash with this kind of sugar.
I don't know if i understand well your thread. Did you already run this wash in your still in the past or are you trying this recipe for the first time and it's fermenting currently?

[thecroweater]

bubbling as we speak , normally I do a three litres of molasses 3 of raw sugar to a 25 ltr fermenter (scaled up to 70 ltrs) so this is new to me because I want to end up with a rhum type product this time round

[heartcut]

For blending I keep a 1/4 tsp measuring spoon bent like a ladle at the spoon side. dip into the jars and dilute with water to whatever strength you seek and it's easy to test the potential blend's taste. +1 on the adding some dunder, add some un-diluted hearts to dunder to make an essence and blend that too (thanks Buccaneer Bob). Caramelized sugar, molasses and/or honey are added to some rums, use very moderately. I like 1/4 tsp of molasses per qt of 120 proof with 10-15 gm charred Jack Daniels wood chips.
As mentioned, lots of the rum taste comes out late. Collect late running in small jars and experiment, could be good.

[Paname]

bubbling as we speak , normally I do a three litres of molasses 3 of raw sugar to a 25 ltr fermenter (scaled up to 70 ltrs) so this is new to me because I want to end up with a rhum type product this time round

I will follow your thread with interest

Thanks for the advices heartcut (the kiwistiller's thread "novice guide for cuts" is very helpful for newbie like me).

[NZChris]

This is my ferment from 4 months ago.

52l wash

10kg Jaggery (dehydrated sugar cane juice from India)
A 140g tomato paste
1 tsp DAP
2 desert spoons bakers yeast
Two sea shells to buffer pH
Fermenter set point 35C
SG 1064, Brix 16.3, pH 5

After 8 days
FG 0.996 pH 4.5
Stripped to 34% AVB in the collection vessel, followed by a spirit run

[moosemilk]

I've done several batches of hookrum. While i don't mind it single distilled, i prefer to do 4 strip runs followed by a 5th spirit run along with a fresh wash. For example, strip so that you have 4-5 gallons of low wines for your spirit run plus 5 gallons of fresh wash added. It gives a lot of flavor that way without being too heavy. Experiment with the ratios like that and see what you like. I have also used a few different types of cane sugar, and i find that using some turbinado as well adds almost a bit of caramel flavor. I age on medium toast/char oak at around 62-65% abv for a few months. Then i remove the oak and toss in some raisins and vanilla bean and age it awhile longer (how long is up to you, as well as how much vanilla/raisins to add. I do about half a bean and cup and a half of raisins per half gallon). Hasn't failed me yet and i've had good reviews.

I also tend to put in a bit of late heads, but not too much. It sweetens it up nicely. A little goes a long way

[Saltbush Bill]

Saltbush, How long do you recommend oaking rum? I am asking about staves not barrels. Is there a danger of over oaking rum like there is with whiskey? I have been taking my rum off of oak after about 3 months and then aging it in glass. It has been working well but I am always open to new ideas

That would depend on the amount of oak you use per litre or gallon Ben, Ive never managed to over oak Rum yet, Ive oaked it in glass using both home made toasted oak sticks and also Dominos. Some Ive left for as long as 12 months with no ill effect.

[ben stiller]

What a great rum discussion you started here paname. Thank you.

At croweater. How do you go about adding caramel? Just melt some or is there a flavoring that you make or buy?
Also what amount do you use say per quart? I have a quart just off oak that is gonna meet up with some vanilla and raisins per Moosemilk.

[thecroweater]

Make yourself some caramel and and add to taste either at barrel strength or drinking strength. Add it to your tastes, personally I find ninety percent of the commercial stuff to varying degrees sickly and over sweet. The rum industry is completely unregulated in this regard so a lot of the cheaper Rums have a shit ton added to smooth out what would otherwise be a fairly green and savage tasting likker. The progenerater of the name rum is a term that means fire or devils water as it can be coarse and hot straight from the still so syrup and caramel have been used since it's inception

[Saltbush Bill]

I know that Distillers Caramel is added to some Rums, I would assume it is added to the cheaper and rougher Brands...but probably not all.
I have no evidence to back that up , but that is my thought on it. I know that at least one Rum distillery ages on white American oak, that is to say that they don't treat the oak by charring or toasting it before hand. In the case of that particular brand of rum it would be added to give colour. You wont get much colour out Oak that hasn't been charred or toasted.

How do you go about adding caramel?

As far I am aware Distillers Caramel is pretty basic stuff, in short its burned sugar, there are a few "how to's" around the different forums.
For my money its not needed, get a good recipe, make good cuts, oak it and you will have a rum you can be proud of without the additives.

Edit: The hard part is coming up with a Rum that you like, you are probably not going to be able to clone your favourite Commercial Rum you buy from the shop. Different ratios of Molasses and sugar in the recipe will give different results, as will different ferment Temps. Oaking aging is another story again...French Oak and American Oak will both give you different flavors as will different chars and levels of toast. Different amounts of dunder and weather the dunder is aged or fresh from the still will change the end result yet again.
Experiment and have fun doing it

[thecroweater]

Granted Salty but the guy was saying his rum wasn't what he perceived as rum so as most commercial rum has caramel and some has a damn lot so it may well be what is missing out of the profile he is looking for. I generally don't add it and if i do it is to a tempered bottle to drink straight away, it does give it that Captain Morgan Jerry sailor type of style that is pretty ok in a mixer like coke or dry

[casamayor]

Hello paname
i'm living in the french west indies, i know quite well the difference between sugar cane and molasses rum , as you said previously the taste is totally different. i made this two kind of rum with success!
CM