Oaking and aging the T-Pee way

[PTS_35]

This is what I have(chips). What do you suggest time wise? Based on how I have 3 per half gal

[T-Pee]

I used 3 per half gal bc the post says 6 per gallon. Also, these sticks are thin. It's not a good solid .5" x.5"x 5" I didn't measure them but can say they are more like a quarter inch thick by maybe 1 in by probably 5 or 6 inches. That's just a guess. I guess I'll let them in there longer. Will wait till may. Here's the thing, I haven't even tasted it past the blending. And that was a tiny bit. So I'm real curious how it's gonna taste. I can pick up the apple in the nose. There's a fruitiness to it with some backgrounds there. Im hoping to apple flavors and I dont want to over power it with the wood

Since there's less wood, there should be less oak flavoring available by my logic.
I'd leave it as is for a few months and see what happens which is what you'll be doing anyways, right?

tp

[CR33G3R]

Have any of you just up and bought barrels yet? I've got a couple 5 liters from Deep South and they just can't be beat by nuking or other means. Took jimbos advice time and patience in a good barrel and you end up with some golden magic.

I also have a 5 liter barrel. I haven't got anything in it yet, but I plan on using it soon. I don't do much brewing in the winter, I'm a propane guy and it's just too damn cold in the garage.
My plan is to put a AG bourbon in the barrel (probably a grain bill similar to Buffalo Trace). I may start a thread about it. I haven't found too many post about using these small barrels but then again I just started looking...

[PTS_35]

After seeing that name here I looked them up. Here's my question on that. Say I put apple brandy in one. Then what? I wouldn't be able to put a bourbon in the same barrel would i? Or vice versa? Wouldn't you get a mix of flavors? What abt different whiskeys? Would you use same barrel for those. Well I guess you can huh since scotch is aged in used bourbon barrels. Idk abt brandy and whiskeys. Guess I'd have to get two

[SoMo]

Yeah you could put a bourbon in a barrel behind a brandy it would probably taste really good too, the barrels take some time but do put out a much more consistent product and you get the true aging aspect not just oak flavoring.
For the Brandies Odin gave me the best tip ever age them with a bit of quality honey and your toasted oak the fruit flavor pops, it's a beautiful thing. Remember brandies aren't a high proof spirit the lower the better so you aren't diluting flavor.

[Antler24]

Not sure about the honey but I add a cup of maple syrup per gallon to my oaked ujsm @ 62%. I can't pick up any of the maple flavour from the finished product but it does add a smoothness to whiskey that I like.

Just had to say that my best drop of rum to date has been a Pint from a double distilled batch of Buchanner Bobs recipe. I pulled 2 white oak stick (3/4 x 3/4 x 4") from 2 quarts of 6 month ujsm and put in a pint of the rum at 55%. At 4 months now the rum is a dark Amber color and tastes great.

I just did a pint as an aging experiment but I think all my rum oak from now on will be taken from ujsm/sweetfeed jars!

[bitter]

This is a followup.. 10 Month report.

Took the UJSSM off Oak. The Chared now has more vanilla flavour and smell. The Unchared is more Brown Sugar taste and smell. It is the most Oak I like in a whiskey is why I took it off oak. If I don't drink it will continue to follow up.

I put some more on Oak today from a run last week. Had a cold so could not make cuts. This was done a bit different using Ian Smilies/Odin's Making Pure Whiskey Method. You can see the chared is slightly darker but not much. Also I cut the whiskey down to drinking strength, that is why the levels are higher now.... Drank some of it.

B

[PTS_35]

Looks real good. SoMo...how much honey you add to a gallon? That's had me wondering for a while since I use organic raw honey regularly.

[bitter]

This will be the end of he updates for aging the UJSSM I have been posting pics etc. I decided to bottle

Part of it I wanted a lighter whiskey and Yak gave me 2 bottles of vodka so made my version of a Canadian whiskey Its on the left of the pics. On the right is my blend at drinking strength UJSSM. Both have a little maple syrup in them to give a little hit.. but very mild. The Full strength got a couple TBSP of Caramel I made.

You can tell how much richer the full strength is but the Lighter is sure nice sipping also! Now I have choice!
Now pic time.

B

[Shiny Coke]

With the larger (.75"x.75") sticks I now use one per quart of 55%-60%, toasted at 400*, lightly charred as posted and ignored for a minimum of four months. I leave the sticks in the whole time. Six is a little too much for my taste if left in for the duration. Four is just right, imo.
It works. Period.

tp

First if all thanks for the great write up TP! I followed your instructions on toasting and charring and had a gallon pickle jar of (60%)corn likker on 5ea 3/4 x 3/4 x 4-5" for about 1 1/2 mos. During this time I was playing with the distressing method of in and out of the freezer prolly fr about 3 cycles each. After the month and a half I liked the level of oaking and removed them filtering into a separate container with a cinnamon stick and a small vanilla bean and will leave (as much as I can stay out of it) for another month and half. Its damn fine tasting right now!
I've since put another gal on oak of an AG Rye 60% ABV distilled April 14 but this time did the 6 sticks you originally posted. I cracked it after the 2nd cycle of distress aging and it is way over on the burnt wood flavor . I may have panicked a bit prematurely Thursday as I removed the oak, threw it away and filtered into another container. Will the burnt sensation go away changing to caramel as I've read or should I consider doing something else with it?

[bitter]

1.5 months is not much time on Oak. I would say leave it. Are you sure its not tannins instead of burnt.. They don't taste great.

I just bottled mine and it was on oak for 10+ Months the T-Pee way

B

[Shiny Coke]

I'm pretty sure it was the distressing thread that instructed to age for around 1.5 mos until you're happy with the level of oak, remove the oak and leave for at least another 1.5 mos. Pretty sure its not the tannins.

As I mentioned, I may have overreacted by removing the 6 charred sticks and regret throwing them out. Do you think their absence will benefit or hinder whats sitting in the jar now?

[bitter]

I found when tasting mine.. There are times around the 1.5-3 month range were things are worst... if you get into them my experience has shown to give it more time.. and it will smooth out. I found 10 months about the max for 6 stick in a gallon for me.. but its sure is a tasty drink once cut to drinking strength. Even after cutting and taking things off oak letting things sit for a few weeks and its even better.

B

[HDNB]

+1 on what bitter says there on the "awkward" months, 6 weeks to 6 months for me.

are you sure you didn't scorch the rye? everyone else here has at least once, i'm sure of it!

[Shiny Coke]

No scorching. I did a blend of 80/20 blend (10lb flaked rye, 8lb Rye malt, 2lb pale malt) bringing strike water to 170. Transferred to "big blue" mash tun cooler mixing in the flaked rye and stirring until it cooled to 152 and added the malts with a tsp of amylase. After a bunch more reading yesterday, I think its a combination of possibly too much char on the sticks, too many sticks, and/or not sanding some char off or soaking in water a day before putting in the Rye.
Just remembered a couple of days after initial oaking, I realized I put only 5 in and thought I'd add another so I went to my previously toasted pile and charred another. Let it cool for a short bit and threw it directly in. Maybe that was it? Seems to me the first gallon I did I had charred 5 sticks and let cool outside over night before adding to the jar.
How many guys soak them on water first?
How many sand some char off?

[bitter]

Rye can be pretty spicy and strong and take longer to smooth out.

B

[Shiny Coke]

Its spicy for sure. I'm leaving it alone off the oak and on its own and we'll see what happens.

Has anyone tried the distressing method of in and out of the freezer to speed it up or does everyone "set it and forget it"?

[bitter]

Yes there are threads here about it it helps. If you have a hot garage it also helps speed things up... Hot in the day cool at night... The fluctuation speeds up aging. But its outside this thread...

B

[Shiny Coke]

Thought it was still sorta related as its aging and oaking (just not T-Pee's way). Just wondering if that's where I may have gone wrong on my Rye. Didn't mean to get'er off topic.

[Danespirit]

I found when tasting mine.. There are times around the 1.5-3 month range were things are worst... if you get into them my experience has shown to give it more time.. and it will smooth out. I found 10 months about the max for 6 stick in a gallon for me.. but its sure is a tasty drink once cut to drinking strength. Even after cutting and taking things off oak letting things sit for a few weeks and its even better.
B

+1
A great whisky on wood ain't a matter of a few weeks..
Mine is on wood at least half a year.
The charred part of the wood needs time to react with the spirit, so does the rest of the wood.
No matter what wood comes to use, time is a major factor. Oak will contain some acids, that will interact with the spirit and complement the final result (along with a lot of other components in the wood).
The advice to let it sit a few weeks after cutting, is a wise one.
I'll leave the hairsplitting discussion whether spirits age when bottled or not alone..
My point of view is the spirit doesn't age (when already bottled)....it just gets mature and develops it's final character.
Last summer I made a batch of Calvados, which turned out really good after a few months on wood.
I took a few notes back then to describe the character of it.
Not unsurprisingly it developed and got even better by the time it has been bottled for some weeks.
Hey Bitter... the first picture of your whisky in that Glencairn glass, looks like most of mine do. ..delicious...!

[bitter]

Thanks Danespirit

The Glencarin glass was the lighter whiskey.. The other is a bit darker.. both are very tasty! Just depending what I want a given day!

B

[Shiny Coke]

Thanks for the explanations Bitter, Dane Spirit and HDNB. Sounds like you guys aren't using the distressing freezer method and I may have been a bit confused on the amount of time on oak etc. Reckon this gallon I distilled this weekend is getting 5 toasted and charred sticks and going up in the attic for the temp swings until November. Think I have to giv'er to get ahead of the curve so's I can keep the supply ahead of the demand.

Just gotta pay my dues and make that long 6 month wait like all others before me.

[Danespirit]

Ahh..Bitter, I am sure it tastes as good as it looks..
Shiny Coke..
The time is not the only factor in this game, the final outcome will be greatly influenced by how much you char your oak/wood.
In the start of this thread, T-pee showed a schematic drawing, that shows the different flavours in relationship to the charring.
The "temperature swings" are more related to if you age on barrels.
A wooden barrel will give the whisky time to "breathe", it will expand and contract according to the temperature and ambient humidity.
Some of the spirits will evaporate, known as "the angels share". It's one of the reasons why typical cask strength is around 62-64 % ABV.
Of course, more volatile components will go that way too..further contributing to the smoothness of the final product.
Many producers of whiskey, have their barrels to age in an uninsulated warehouse, so the temperatures of a given season can interact with the barrels.
If you age the spirits in a glass carboy (demijohn), it will only have the surface area of the cork to do the magic...glass doesn't allow for anything to get in or out.
So temperature fluctuations, ain't that important in a glass/stainless steel container (as for the spirits to breathe).
Of course, some processes are still going on in there... and laws of nature prove reactions/interactions go faster with higher temperatures.
The fact that your wood is surrounded by the spirits creates a surface area that is much larger if compared to aging in a barrel.
That circumstance speeds the aging up. It's also the reason why aging in smaller barrels,will be faster compared to larger barrels (the ratio between surface area and the quantity of spirits in the barrel).
Please consider those aspects before dumping in your wood. It's easy to over oak your spirits (even easier with a sort of wood you are not yet familiar with).
If in doubt, put some staves in and check weekly...you can always add more if the colour and taste seems a little light.

[Shiny Coke]

Thanks DS. I've toasted and followed T-Pee's method to the T. I've since reread his OP and found that's where I got the idea of 1 1/2 months on oak then another 1 1/2 off. I've watched various documentaries on distillation and how some of these guys age like Bacardi and Jack Daniels so I understand the stacking the barrels in the warehouse and rotating heights. Same principle with the distressing method (even though in glass) the temp swings force the alcohol into and out of the wood bringing with it the tannins that darken and flavor the whisky. Respectfully, I don't know if I totally agree with your temp swings are more related to barrel ageing as the science behind the alcohol movement in and out of the wood still works in glass. To address the breathing point, wouldn't cracking the lid periodically work to relieve pressure and breathe a bit?

The first gallon of whisky I did, I did it the T-Pee way with the exception of 5 sticks instead of 6 (couldn't count past 5 at the time I guess ) and I included 3 cycles of distressing. After the 1 1/2 mos, I removed the sticks, filtered and added some vanilla bean and a cinnamon stick. Think I'm gonna yank that vanilla bean out though. Tastes great as it is now but want to leave it a bit more before getting into fully.

I guess at the end of the day and like so many have said before, the great thing about this hobby is there are many variations to get you to the same result and if you like the flavor you're producing then you must be doing it right eh?

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Ahh..Bitter, I am sure it tastes as good as it looks..
Shiny Coke..
The time is not the only factor in this game, the final outcome will be greatly influenced by how much you char your oak/wood.
In the start of this thread, T-pee showed a schematic drawing, that shows the different flavours in relationship to the charring.
The "temperature swings" are more related to if you age on barrels.
A wooden barrel will give the whisky time to "breathe", it will expand and contract according to the temperature and ambient humidity.
Some of the spirits will evaporate, known as "the angels share". It's one of the reasons why typical cask strength is around 62-64 % ABV.
Of course, more volatile components will go that way too..further contributing to the smoothness of the final product.
Many producers of whiskey, have their barrels to age in an uninsulated warehouse, so the temperatures of a given season can interact with the barrels.
If you age the spirits in a glass carboy (demijohn), it will only have the surface area of the cork to do the magic...glass doesn't allow for anything to get in or out.
So temperature fluctuations, ain't that important in a glass/stainless steel container (as for the spirits to breathe).
Of course, some processes are still going on in there... and laws of nature prove reactions/interactions go faster with higher temperatures.
The fact that your wood is surrounded by the spirits creates a surface area that is much larger if compared to aging in a barrel.
That circumstance speeds the aging up. It's also the reason why aging in smaller barrels,will be faster compared to larger barrels (the ratio between surface area and the quantity of spirits in the barrel).
Please consider those aspects before dumping in your wood. It's easy to over oak your spirits (even easier with a sort of wood you are not yet familiar with).
If in doubt, put some staves in and check weekly...you can always add more if the colour and taste seems a little light.

In reference to your reference of the chart at the beginning of this thread...
I believe that chart is more about toasting rather than charing. There's a big difference.

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[der wo]

I believe that chart is more about toasting rather than charing. There's a big difference.

Does that mean, all the whiskeys aged in untoasted only charred barrels don't have those flavors?
Definetely no. Or works it like "ok I want maximum vanilla, so I set my oven on 400°F and the longer I wait, the more vanilla I get"? No. A short toast at 400F will taste oaky, a long toast will have burnt flavors. Same at 300F (needs a bit longer) and 500F (needs shorter). The main difference between long 300 and short 500 is, that with short 500 you have more different toasts in the wood, outside dark, inside light, IF the wood is thick enough for that. That's why sticks are more recommended here than chips. More complex taste.
I found the chart very interesting, because the general principles (the sequence of the tastes) are important of course. But that's all. Its practical use is overrated imo.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

I believe that chart is more about toasting rather than charing. There's a big difference.

Does that mean, all the whiskeys aged in untoasted only charred barrels don't have those flavors?
Definetely no. Or works it like "ok I want maximum vanilla, so I set my oven on 400°F and the longer I wait, the more vanilla I get"? No. A short toast at 400F will taste oaky, a long toast will have burnt flavors. Same at 300F (needs a bit longer) and 500F (needs shorter). The main difference between long 300 and short 500 is, that with short 500 you have more different toasts in the wood, outside dark, inside light, IF the wood is thick enough for that. That's why sticks are more recommended here than chips. More complex taste.
I found the chart very interesting, because the general principles (the sequence of the tastes) are important of course. But that's all. Its practical use is overrated imo.

I understand that. But who chars at 400 degrees?

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[bitter]

I think you are missing the point. He toasts his sticks in the oven and then chars then to suite later. I do the same using my map torch.

The deeper the char the more charcoal.. hence deeper color.

B

[Hillbilly Popstar]

No, in my original comment the chart was referenced with charring. I said the chart is more for toasting.

Now the whole discussion being taken out of context.

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[bitter]

Sorry miss-understood things and wanted to be sure it was clear. It was clear as mud to me apparently....

B