Stripping runs at Woodford Distillery

[Hillbilly Popstar]

If you are following the clasical pot still sequence of beer (strip) still producing low wines, low wines producing either high wines or product depending on if it is 2x or 3x run, then you charge the boiler with low wines at 27 to 30% ABV.

Now many folks run so far into their strip run that their low wines are diluted to the correct proof. I tend to strip until I get vapour temp of 98 degrees when i turn the power off. I will leave the condenser running because the hot boiler is still producing vapour as it cools. For me it is not energy efficient to keep pumping in power fot the last bit of alcohol.

It makes good sense when doing a 3x pot still run to dilute the charge on the second run, you will get back to cask strength on the final run.

Slightly out of context but on simmilar principles, when distilling gin you dilute the charge so you have less dilution of the product. Diluting product ABV also dilutes product flavour.

You say it's a waste of energy yet some people wait 2-3 weeks just to get a measly 10%abv. Why doesn't it make sense to at least run your still to the point that it's nearly putting out what you normally put in it?

[myles]

You say it's a waste of energy yet some people wait 2-3 weeks just to get a measly 10%abv. Why doesn't it make sense to at least run your still to the point that it's nearly putting out what you normally put in it?

Sorry did not understand that.

It does not take much energy input to do a fermentation. It does not take much energy to distil off the first 9% of the alcohol in a 10% ABV wash. It does take significantly more energy to strip out the last 1%.

If it costs less to ferment a new batch and distil the first 1% from a new 10% wash in comparison to trying to get out that last 1% - then why bother?

The energy required to separate alcohol from water varies dependent on the concentration of alcohol in the boiler. It is also why you dilute the boiler charge to 30%. Above 30% and it takes MORE energy to split the alcohol away from the water.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

You say it's a waste of energy yet some people wait 2-3 weeks just to get a measly 10%abv. Why doesn't it make sense to at least run your still to the point that it's nearly putting out what you normally put in it?

Sorry did not understand that.

It does not take much energy input to do a fermentation. It does not take much energy to distil off the first 9% of the alcohol in a 10% ABV wash. It does take significantly more energy to strip out the last 1%.

If it costs less to ferment a new batch and distil the first 1% from a new 10% wash in comparison to trying to get out that last 1% - then why bother?

The energy required to separate alcohol from water varies dependent on the concentration of alcohol in the boiler. It is also why you dilute the boiler charge to 30%. Above 30% and it takes MORE energy to split the alcohol away from the water.

Energy consumption is not the only variable in efficiency. Time is also a factor.

Furthermore I don't find that a deep strip run costs much at all. I get what I want and crank the heat a tad and throw a galling jar under the spigot. 30-40 minutes later I'm done.
Once my boiler is hot I run my propane so low that I have to keep checking it to make sure it hasn't gone out, 90% of your energy is used in bringing the boiler up to operating temps, so there's also something to be gained from getting what you can while it's hot, rather than throwing alcohol away with each batch.
Not to mention those deep tails are 90% flavored water that are perfect for watering down spirit runs or adding some more flavor to any run for that matter.

[der wo]

> They blend the pot stilled spirits with column stilled spirits.

That's right for some but not all of their whiskeys.


It looks, that they distill three times, but don't dilute between. They strip very long, what means they waste much energy/money, if their goal would be, to get the whiskey as cheap as possible. So there must be another reason. And it looks like they do it because of the taste. Or does someone have another answer?

I write their data again:

Unfortunately there is no info about the abv of the mash, but:
-after 1. dist. they get 40pr. So if they have a mash with say 16pr, they have to collect 40% of the boiler charge to get 40pr (supposing after 40% almost all of the ethanol is collected).

-after 2. dist. they get 110pr. From 40pr to 110pr they have to collect 36% of the charge (supposing almost all of the ethanol is collected).

-after 3. dist. they get 158pr. From 110pr to 158pr they have to collect 70%! of the charge (supposing almost...).

Not considered, if they add feints to runs perhaps.

Of course there is a difference in taste, if we dilute between runs or if we collect longer. Of course the low wines will have more taste, if we collect longer than if we dilute. But does this result in a whiskey with more good flavor or more bad flavor? Will we have to do an earlier tails cut at the spirit run, if we collect the low wines longer, so we loose this "more flavor" again, or will we get after the spirit run a heavier taste but with the same high quality, if we collect the low wines longer?

[Hillbilly Popstar]

> They blend the pot stilled spirits with column stilled spirits.

That's right for some but not all of their whiskeys.


It looks, that they distill three times, but don't dilute between. They strip very long, what means they waste much energy/money, if their goal would be, to get the whiskey as cheap as possible. So there must be another reason. And it looks like they do it because of the taste. Or does someone have another answer?

I write their data again:

Unfortunately there is no info about the abv of the mash, but:
-after 1. dist. they get 40pr. So if they have a mash with say 16pr, they have to collect 40% of the boiler charge to get 40pr (supposing after 40% almost all of the ethanol is collected).

-after 2. dist. they get 110pr. From 40pr to 110pr they have to collect 36% of the charge (supposing almost all of the ethanol is collected).

-after 3. dist. they get 158pr. From 110pr to 158pr they have to collect 70%! of the charge (supposing almost...).

Not considered, if they add feints to runs perhaps.

Of course there is a difference in taste, if we dilute between runs or if we collect longer. Of course the low wines will have more taste, if we collect longer than if we dilute. But does this result in a whiskey with more good flavor or more bad flavor? Will we have to do an earlier tails cut at the spirit run, if we collect the low wines longer, so we loose this "more flavor" again, or will we get after the spirit run a heavier taste but with the same high quality, if we collect the low wines longer?

It is my thinking that more ethanol = more hearts, with heads and tails being the limited quantities.

[der wo]

It is my thinking that more ethanol = more hearts, with heads and tails being the limited quantities.

What do you mean with "more ethanol"? More abv? Collecting longer or diluting, both lowers the abv the same way.
I don't know, what do you want to say, perhaps it is my English.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

More ethanol gross not percent by volume.

[der wo]

But why is this an answer to my post (you quoted it)? The difference in gross ethanol between collecting from a 16pr mash 40% boiler charge or 30% boiler charge is minimal. The energy costs to collect it are way higher than the extra ethanol you get.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

But why is this an answer to my post (you quoted it)? The difference in gross ethanol between collecting from a 16pr mash 40% boiler charge or 30% boiler charge is minimal. The energy costs to collect it are way higher than the extra ethanol you get.

I just think that if quality of product is the main goal then energy consumption kinda takes a back seat. In that case it make sense to pusher deep into the tails.

[der wo]

I just think that if quality of product is the main goal then energy consumption kinda takes a back seat. In that case it make sense to pusher deep into the tails.

Energy costs are not so important for us I think.
Why are you sure you get better quality collecting longer?
And when you mean "pusher deep into the tails" is better? Stripping run? Spirit run? And why?
Short collecting double distillation is that, what the most homedistiller do. Why perhaps is long collecting triple distillation better?

Those are the questions in my mind, when I look at Woodfords numbers.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

I just think that if quality of product is the main goal then energy consumption kinda takes a back seat. In that case it make sense to pusher deep into the tails.

Energy costs are not so important for us I think.
Why are you sure you get better quality collecting longer?
And when you mean "pusher deep into the tails" is better? Stripping run? Spirit run? And why?
Short collecting double distillation is that, what the most homedistiller do. Why perhaps is long collecting triple distillation better?

Those are the questions in my mind, when I look at Woodfords numbers.

I don't "know" it's just my theory.
I can't say for now with my limited experience. And in that experience, I find that DEEP into the tails the skunk starts to fade away as the abv drops and your just getting concentrated flavor with small amounts of alcohol.

If I intend my low wines to be 40% or 30% or whatever....
Collecting them down to that point makes sense to me.

Time and flavor are important to me not a little extra cost in propane.

I may be wrong, but Woodford makes some good drop, do they not?

[myles]

I do like Woodford myself.

This is somewhat reminiscent of the old discussion regarding a 1/3rd cut and a 1/5th cut. A similar process is used in distilling cognac where the HEARTS is split into two factions. One is prime quality and the second is not as good and is re-processed in the next batch.

The quality product is generally taken from the middle of the run and most folks just recover the feints for recycling. That is a sweeping generalisation I know but essentially it is true. Any heads and tails are not usually put directly into the product, but tend to be mixed back into subsequent boiler charges where they contribute layers of flavour to the hearts that are extracted on the next run.

[engunear]

Yet another variable is to use the feints as the boiler water in a steam stripper. This is energy efficient and allows for the flavour layering. Have not tried this yet, but have saved feints ready to do this in next batch.

[der wo]

I am thinking about my next grain project (rye) and thinking about getting more (good) taste without going deeper into the (bad) tails while the spirit run. If longer stripping is the answer. And find more and more data (similar numbers also from scottish malt distilleries), that I am on the right way perhaps. I am also working on a rummager for my still, that I can strip deep and on the grain without scorching.

I now have done those very long potstill stripping runs of rye followed by one spirit run with my LM-column.
It's definetely the way I will do in future too:

I collected per 12l mash 4-4.2l low wines. The last half liter had absolutely no alcohol, but was clear like water, had a really good sweet and mature grain smell and a sour taste. I have read somewhere, this fraction after the tails is called "sweet water".

The spirit run started as usual (no more or better taste) so I was a bit disappointed. But then the last part before the tails became very intense (no surprise...), but the quality didn't drop (big surprise!). At the end I could add many more late jars to the hearts as usual without ruining the quality. Those jars pushed the intensity of the aroma extremely.

My conclusion:
Longer stripping runs -> better taste of the tails of the spirit run -> later tails cut -> more taste of the hearts

[DAD300]

der wo, I might have missed it, but did you recycle or throw away some tails before the sweet water?

I've gotten to where there is a portion of tails that is cloudy/smelly and I dispose of it, saving the sweet water that comes after.

[engunear]

I've been steam stripping for a while that lets me go as far as I like, even with rye, and I have pondered this question, and have recently been doing some runs cutting off earlier. It seems there are two views one could have:

1) As in winemaking, having a lot of flavour is good, more is better, and it mellows in time to give complexity. Even skunk will turn into joy.

2) Fineness is a virtue, and it can be produced by having an earlier cut, and letting the complexity develop from the wood and with time. Someone had a bottle of a scotch 18yo a way back, I forget which (Macallan?), and I was amazed at its fineness, and its delicacy. Drinking and thinking "this tastes like they cut off early".

Its an interesting hobby.

[der wo]

der wo, I might have missed it, but did you recycle or throw away some tails before the sweet water?

I've gotten to where there is a portion of tails that is cloudy/smelly and I dispose of it, saving the sweet water that comes after.

No. I had this idea too, but thought, it should be better the next experiment perhaps. It sounds logically, that it could result better at the end, if I had tossed something before the sweet water. But I think it's only provable by practice.
Do you have more info, what you did or read about it?

[der wo]

I've been steam stripping for a while that lets me go as far as I like, even with rye, and I have pondered this question, and have recently been doing some runs cutting off earlier. It seems there are two views one could have:

1) As in winemaking, having a lot of flavour is good, more is better, and it mellows in time to give complexity. Even skunk will turn into joy.

2) Fineness is a virtue, and it can be produced by having an earlier cut, and letting the complexity develop from the wood and with time. Someone had a bottle of a scotch 18yo a way back, I forget which (Macallan?), and I was amazed at its fineness, and its delicacy. Drinking and thinking "this tastes like they cut off early".

Its an interesting hobby.

Before this experiment I had to go deep into the tails at the spirit run, that the flavor gets not dominated by the oak at the end. This resulted in a too tailsy taste. Ok, I didn't wait 18 years...

Now I can go deeper into the tails at the spirit run without tails being detectable.

I don't know, if Macallan does an early or late cut at the spirit run. But probably all whisky distilleries do very long stripping runs.

[der wo]

Here two short videos, how backset looks like, when you strip 8.5% down to total 23%, what means from 10l mash 3.7l low wines:


High Rye Bourbon from fine milled grains.

[NZChris]

There wasn't much moisture left in that. Much longer and you would have been in trouble

For deep strips, a preheater would recover some of the energy cost from the long runs. By 30% low wines my preheater has only removed the foreshot. Running longer would have some strip in the collection vessel before the recharge. I haven't tried Woodford style numbers yet, but that will happen.

[Birrofilo]

@Der Wo

Extremely interesting.

Can I have some details on the first slow stripping run?
Did you make some cuts during the stripping run (eliminating foreshots, heads) or did you just do the stripping without selection, only very slowly?

I supposed you eliminated the foreshots and some heads during the spirit run. If I get you right, you basically "did not find" the tails during the spirit run. They had been left in the pot during the stripping run.

If you also cut out the foreshots and some heads during the stripping run, then this is some sort of "double rectification", with slow operation and "side cuttings" in both runs (if we exclude that there were almost no tails in the second run).

If you, instead, did not make any head cut during the stripping run, then this process is a sort of "cutting away the tails in the stripping run, and cutting away the heads in the spirit run".

[Twisted Brick]

If you, instead, did not make any head cut during the stripping run, then this process is a sort of "cutting away the tails in the stripping run, and cutting away the heads in the spirit run".

I now have done those very long potstill stripping runs of rye followed by one spirit run with my LM-column.
It's definitely the way I will do in future too:

My conclusion:
Longer stripping runs -> better taste of the tails of the spirit run -> later tails cut -> more taste of the hearts

I interpreted Der Wo's explanation as performing a longer strip run, particularly a slow lengthening of drawing off tails. Nothing discarded, just slower. This subsequently allowed him to go deeper into tails on the spirit run, on his LM-column.

I had a similar reaction to late (pot still) rye tails tasting really good, really grainy, and wonder if its just a natural characteristic of rye.

BTW - Der Wo is no longer here at HD. It was felt he was too critical of the management style here, and despite several warnings to tone his criticisms down, he persisted.

[Birrofilo]

Ah,
I'm saddened that Der Wo does not contribute any more in this forum.
If I had to name a single person that I found especially informative, it was him. A really inquisitive mind, open to experiment and willing to share his experience.

Does anybody know where to find him in some other distilling forum?

********

Regarding this discussion: If I run a stripping run slower I understand I will have less smearing, less contamination-entrainment. But Der Wo said it went much deeper into tail without any typical tail flavour.
Doesn't this suggest he cut his collection, during stripping, earlier than usual?

@Twisted Brick
At which point do you end collection during the slow stripping run?

[NZChris]

If you are using Woodford's protocol you strip until the low wines collection gets down to 40 proof.

Who said they strip slow? I reckon hard and fast would be better.

If you are worried about time and energy costs, install a preheater. At somewhere around 50 proof, my preheater is stripping more alcohol than the main pot, so the extra energy costs for getting down to 40 proof are offset by the strip coming from the preheater.

[engunear]

I'm saddened that Der Wo does not contribute any more in this forum.
If I had to name a single person that I found especially informative, it was him. A really inquisitive mind, open to experiment and willing to share his experience.

... I have to second that. It was always my plan if I travelled to Germany (where I guess he is from) to look him up ... after first contacting him via HD. Damn. Another example of where you should never put off reaching out to someone you like, because tomorrow the opportunity might not be there.

[The Baker]

I believe der Wo was still here on a read only plan at least for a time.
Don't know about now.

If you are listening, hi.

Geoff

[Twisted Brick]

@Twisted Brick
At which point do you end collection during the slow stripping run?

I have always stripped hard and fast, and originally stopped collecting around 25-30%, because that's where the (sugar wash) tails started to smell bad. But after moving to AG, I discovered tails from grain were cleaner than sugar washes, and now stop collecting around 12-15%, not because the tails smell/taste bad, but because the tiny takeoff rate doesn't justify the time/fuel required to continue. Eventually I stopped using a parrot and learned that the AG tails I was making got weaker and weaker, but stayed clean and resembled what Der Wo referred to as sweetwater.

I have committed to try slowing down my next series of strip runs (AG COB currently on ferment day 4) to see if/how it impacts the spirit run.

[pope]

Just got to the end of this and thought I'd circle back to the part of the discussion on costs associated with stripping very far into the low wines. For a commercial operation, between fixed and variable overheads, I figure if the still doesn't have to be turned over asap the costs of running it longer are pretty low. Yes there's more time and heat input but if for the time invested in getting deep into those tails an employee can presumably be doing something else while the still is running, its just a matter of whether there is money or quality in that extra fraction.

I for one am glad to be still learning so much off this forum and am excited to do a deep stripping run next time I do one!

[cayars]

Some of the best flavors on an AG mash come after or very late in the tails. Early or mid tails are kind of skunky/carboard smelling/tasting and usually not clear. But then the liquid clears up again and becomes very tasty again but almost void of alcohol. Try running down a small batch to 5% or so and see what flavors you get very late in the jars.

So instead of having to mix RO water back in you have all this flavorful sweet water already distilled for you to use instead to hit your target proof.