Graham Condenser over Leibig for 4" pot still column

[Canaanite]

So bare with me for a second as I only have this in my head. I am wanting to attach this to a 26 gallon boiler with dual 5500 watt elements. I am thinking a 4 inch column 18 inches tall. Then a 90* bend then 4 inches of straight 4 inch tube with a cap on the end. At the end of the tub, have a 1" pipe coming straight down in to a graham condenser about 12 inches long with a 4 inch jacket on the outside. Then have the output of the graham condenser go in to a 36" leibig condenser with 1 inch inner inside 1.5 inch outer. The water would come in to the bottom of the leibig...out the top....then in to the bottom of the graham and out the top to a drain somewhere. So basically using the graham as a "pre-condenser" of sorts. The reason I am thinking of this idea instead of a shotgun condenser is ease of manufacture basically. Anyone have any thoughts on this idea or criticisms?

[Kegg_jam]

My instincts have me thinking that either a longer Graham or a longer Liebig would be better but not both.

Most people will also say the 1.5" over 1" is gonna be overly heavy and not as efficient as the more common 3/4" over 1/2".

Perhaps someone else will be along to talk about temperature gradients and other technical mumbo jumbo. Not me though, I love looking at people's drawings and creations.

[Canaanite]

My instincts have me thinking that either a longer Graham or a longer Liebig would be better but not both.

Most people will also say the 1.5" over 1" is gonna be overly heavy and not as efficient as the more common 3/4" over 1/2".

Perhaps someone else will be along to talk about temperature gradients and other technical mumbo jumbo. Not me though, I love looking at people's drawings and creations.

I can't draw... but I can picture it in my head. My main thought with using both condensers is to use the Graham as a "pre-condenser" bring the temp down a little to then cool it down even more in the leibig.

[der wo]

I don't know, if I would manage to bend 1" into a coil.
If you have 4", why don't you build a shotgun?
Using two condensers would have the advantage, that you can build the second one with a smaller diameter.

Edit: And the unpacked section (the 90° bend and the straight tube) could have a smaller diameter.

[Canaanite]

Taking in to account the difficulty of bending the 1 inch tube, I have modified my design for 1/2" tubing and drawn it out to illustrate what I am talking about. Now that you can see what I mean, any thoughts? I think it would be easier to produce and possibly more efficient than a single shotgun condenser. the leibig would be attached to a union so that it could be positioned any direction needed. The graham condenser jacket and the column could be attached together for stability. Thoughts?

[Canaanite]

Also the leibig is now modified for 1/2" inside 3/4" like normal.

[cranky]

Quite frankly the whole thing seems like a lot of overkill, not that that is a bad thing. I like graham condensers and find them much easier to build than a shotgun. Not that I run something that large or with that much power. I run a 15.5gallon keg with a single 5500W element. I built a 14" double graham from 2 sections of CSST and although I haven't tested it I think it will handle my needs just fine. I do have a 24" liebig I can add for additional cooling if the need arises and my old standby 36" 3/4 over 1/2 that has been able to knock down as much as a quart every 4.5 minutes.

[shadylane]

I am thinking a 4 inch column 18 inches tall. Then a 90* bend then 4 inches of straight 4 inch tube with a cap on the end. At the end of the tub, have a 1" pipe coming straight down in to a graham condenser about 12 inches long with a 4 inch jacket on the outside.

The cooling coil in the graham can be made with small diameter tubing since it only has to flow water.
Also there would be no advantage, other than copper porn, to use 4" past the column.
Edited: Just realized there is a 4" - 2" reducer on top the column

Then have the output of the graham condenser go in to a 36" leibig condenser with 1 inch inner inside 1.5 inch outer. The water would come in to the bottom of the leibig...out the top....then in to the bottom of the graham and out the top to a drain somewhere. So basically using the graham as a "pre-condenser" of sorts. The reason I am thinking of this idea instead of a shotgun condenser is ease of manufacture basically. Anyone have any thoughts on this idea or criticisms?

I use the same Liebig to knock down upto 9kw. The precondenser won't be needed.
Unless your planning on using the hot water from it to cook your next batch of mash.
Posting with cranky

[Canaanite]

Quite frankly the whole thing seems like a lot of overkill, not that that is a bad thing. I like graham condensers and find them much easier to build than a shotgun. Not that I run something that large or with that much power. I run a 15.5gallon keg with a single 5500W element. I built a 14" double graham from 2 sections of CSST and although I haven't tested it I think it will handle my needs just fine. I do have a 24" liebig I can add for additional cooling if the need arises and my old standby 36" 3/4 over 1/2 that has been able to knock down as much as a quart every 4.5 minutes.

I like overkill... and i am fine with overkill. My main concern was/is does anyone see a problem with either puddling or messed up flow with this design?

[der wo]

I have modified my design for 1/2" tubing

I would not feed a 1/2" tube with 2 x 5500W. Also 3/4" is little. Either a few 1/2" (shotgun) or a very long 1".

[Canaanite]

I have modified my design for 1/2" tubing

I would not feed a 1/2" tube with 2 x 5500W. Also 3/4" is little. Either a few 1/2" (shotgun) or a very long 1".

My original idea was for 1 inch tubing...but you thought it was a bad idea?

[cranky]

My guess is the graham will knock down just about everything with the liebig acting more as a secondary cooler giving an addition margin of safety and in my opinion it should be able to handle anything you throw at it, I doubt you will use all that power throughout a run, that said, in your case I don't think 1" over 3/4 would be bad though.

[cranky]

One concern I might have is making sure the bottom of the graham tapers down to the outlet to the liebig.

[Canaanite]

One concern I might have is making sure the bottom of the graham tapers down to the outlet to the liebig.

I could reduce it from 4 inch to 2 inch...then 2 inch to 1 inch....that would be a step down. Also Cranky, what are your thoughts on using 1/2" tubing for the coil and the inner leibig vs. 1 inch tubing as Der wo stated?

[der wo]

I have modified my design for 1/2" tubing

I would not feed a 1/2" tube with 2 x 5500W. Also 3/4" is little. Either a few 1/2" (shotgun) or a very long 1".

My original idea was for 1 inch tubing...but you thought it was a bad idea?

No, I did not say 1" is a bad idea. I said, it's difficult to bend and probably a shotgun is better.

11kW for 26gal still. It's much power, but it's reasonable.
Ok, we all know, the condenser calc on the parent side is perhaps a bit off, but lets see:
http://homedistiller.org/calcs/cond_calc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
1/2" and 11kW needs a length of 6.69m, 1" 3.35m.
Of course, using a bit more water than efficient and accepting that the distillate is not really cold, you can use a shorter one.
And perhaps you use the 11kW only for heating up.

BTW the steam of 11kW through a 1/2" tube is 200-250km/h fast. If your 1/2" condenser is 2m long, the vapor needs only 0.1 seconds to flow through!

[Canaanite]

I have modified my design for 1/2" tubing

I would not feed a 1/2" tube with 2 x 5500W. Also 3/4" is little. Either a few 1/2" (shotgun) or a very long 1".

My original idea was for 1 inch tubing...but you thought it was a bad idea?

No, I did not say 1" is a bad idea. I said, it's difficult to bend and probably a shotgun is better.

11kW for 26gal still. It's much power, but it's reasonable.
Ok, we all know, the condenser calc on the parent side is perhaps a bit off, but lets see:
http://homedistiller.org/calcs/cond_calc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
1/2" and 11kW needs a length of 6.69m, 1" 3.35m.
Of course, using a bit more water than efficient and accepting that the distillate is not really cold, you can use a shorter one.
And perhaps you use the 11kW only for heating up.

BTW the steam of 11kW through a 1/2" tube is 200-250km/h fast. If your 1/2" condenser is 2m long, the vapor needs only 0.1 seconds to flow through!

I understand now...1 inch it is...

[Canaanite]

And perhaps you use the 11kW only for heating up.
!

Yes, only for heating up and for stripping runs.

[der wo]

And perhaps you use the 11kW only for heating up.

Yes, only for heating up and for stripping runs.

So not only for heating up.

Another calc:
http://homedistiller.org/calcs/pot_calc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
70l 10% wash, 11kW all the time, 20°C, 10% internal reflux, time step 10min:
32min heat up time.
60min more to strip 21.4l 31%. You need less than 3min each liter distillate.
Are you still sure you need 11kW for stripping runs?

[cranky]

One concern I might have is making sure the bottom of the graham tapers down to the outlet to the liebig.

I could reduce it from 4 inch to 2 inch...then 2 inch to 1 inch....that would be a step down. Also Cranky, what are your thoughts on using 1/2" tubing for the coil and the inner leibig vs. 1 inch tubing as Der wo stated?

I personally like the step down, Mine has a tapered section from 3" down to 1.5 then steps down to 3/4" then 1/2". I used 1/2" CSST which has a lot of surface area, I don't think it would be a problem to use 1/2" copper for the graham especially since it will also have the liebig. My thought about the liebig is at least somewhat in line with Der Wo, you have a lot of power that might potentially be able to overwhelm a 1/2 inch liebig and with the liebig being a secondary condenser you could probably get away with a lot of things. I think 1/2" is fine with the graham and because of all the power I would probably go with 1" over 3/4 for the liebig. A 1" inside tube might work but we are starting to get into a lot of weight at that point so some type of support is necessary and maybe some baffles to aid in vapor contact with the tube. As far as references to the condenser calculators, they say my liebig should be something like 10 feet long to do what it does and lots of people have the 36" 3/4 over 1/2 that handles everything 5500W can throw at it so I don't pay much attention to that myself.

[Canaanite]

One concern I might have is making sure the bottom of the graham tapers down to the outlet to the liebig.

I could reduce it from 4 inch to 2 inch...then 2 inch to 1 inch....that would be a step down. Also Cranky, what are your thoughts on using 1/2" tubing for the coil and the inner leibig vs. 1 inch tubing as Der wo stated?

I personally like the step down, Mine has a tapered section from 3" down to 1.5 then steps down to 3/4" then 1/2". I used 1/2" CSST which has a lot of surface area, I don't think it would be a problem to use 1/2" copper for the graham especially since it will also have the liebig. My thought about the liebig is at least somewhat in line with Der Wo, you have a lot of power that might potentially be able to overwhelm a 1/2 inch liebig and with the liebig being a secondary condenser you could probably get away with a lot of things. I think 1/2" is fine with the graham and because of all the power I would probably go with 1" over 3/4 for the liebig. A 1" inside tube might work but we are starting to get into a lot of weight at that point so some type of support is necessary and maybe some baffles to aid in vapor contact with the tube. As far as references to the condenser calculators, they say my liebig should be something like 10 feet long to do what it does and lots of people have the 36" 3/4 over 1/2 that handles everything 5500W can throw at it so I don't pay much attention to that myself.

So if i am reading correctly, you think 1/2" tubing for the graham will be fine but then step up to 3/4" for the leibig? If I was reading Der wo correctly, I think he was thinking 1/2" tubing might plug up with condensate because a 4 inch column and 11000w of power was feeding it. This is why he recommended 1 inch tubing.

[der wo]

I also don't understand cranky at this point. Perhaps he thinks, in the coil of the graham is the cooling water, not the vapor. Also shadylanes answer is confusing.

I think, if you use two condensers, the second one can be thinner without causing overpressure, because much of the vapor is condensed yet.

[Canaanite]

I also don't understand cranky at this point. Perhaps he thinks, in the coil of the graham is the cooling water, not the vapor. Also shadylanes answer is confusing.

I think, if you use two condensers, the second one can be thinner without causing overpressure, because much of the vapor is condensed yet.

So you still recommend a 1 inch coil in the graham condenser....is this correct Der wo? And the reason for this is because of the volume of condensate moving through it? According to the condenser coil calculator, I can get 244 inches of 1/2" tubing inside a 4 inch diameter by 18 inch long graham condenser. So the length of tube will not be a problem.

[der wo]

So you still recommend a 1 inch coil in the graham condenser....is this correct Der wo?

I would recommend a shotgun for such a powerful still.
But if you really want to build a graham and if you really want the 11kW during the run, take 1", because of the huge pressure in a 1/2" tube. The less pressure the more relaxed the still runs, no leaks and no huffing. But are you really able to bend 1" without kinks?

[Canaanite]

But are you really able to bend 1" without kinks?

I don't know... but it looks like I will find out.

[Canaanite]

New plan... I should be able to fit 211 inches of 1 inch tubing inside the 6x18 Graham Condenser. Then another 36 inches of leibig. Should be more than enough cooling capacity. Thoughts?

[der wo]

The half length would be enough even without an additional liebig.
First try to bend the 1". Then you will see, what outer diameter fits best. If I would build a graham, I would it build it as large, that I don't need a second condenser. I think 100" 1" should be enough for a really relaxed 11kW run. But my dimensions are much lower, I run 2.5kW only. So I cannot swear that my assessments are right.

[Canaanite]

https://youtu.be/-l-lMKlVFpA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Seems easy this way.

[shadylane]

I also don't understand cranky at this point. Perhaps he thinks, in the coil of the graham is the cooling water, not the vapor. Also shadylanes answer is confusing.

Unless I'm mistaken the cooling water flows through the coil in a graham condenser.

EDITED: I'm wrong, I was confusing a grahman with a dimroth condenser

[Canaanite]

I also don't understand cranky at this point. Perhaps he thinks, in the coil of the graham is the cooling water, not the vapor. Also shadylanes answer is confusing.

Unless I'm mistaken the cooling water flows through the coil in a graham condenser.

No... I believe the condensate flows through the coil and the water flows through the jacket.

[shadylane]

Your right
Have you considered a Dimroth condenser?