Fermenting On or Off the grain?

[magnuson25]

Hello,

Is there a correct way to do it? Should you strain your grains out so that you are left with just a liquid before you add your yeast or should you leave the grains, add the yeast, and ferment it in your bucket with the grains?

Thank you

[Bigbob]

I think your going to get a 50/50 response pro and con. So it's whatever works best for you!

[magnuson25]

Thank you sir, I was just making sure that it would work both ways. I plan on fermenting it on the grain, but this is my very first batch that I am making right now, and I will be transferring it to my fermentation jug in about 30 minutes. Thank you very much!

[MichiganCornhusker]

What are you making?
For me, I would never try to sparge anything thick like wheat or rye.
Or raw barley. Barley malt and corn can be done fairly painlessly.

I usually ferment on grain but I'm experimenting right now with a few off grain batches to compare.

[magnuson25]

I am making a George Washington Rye Whiskey. It is VERY thick because it uses rolled Rye.

6 Pounds of Rolled Rye
3 1/2 Pounds of Rolled Corn
1/5 Pound of Malted Barley
5 Pounds of Water

I think that It will be easiest to leave it in the fermentation bucket with the grains and then just rack it off at the end?

[MichiganCornhusker]

Yep, that's a good on grainer for sure!

[still_stirrin]

Yup, Bigbob. Answers either side of the fence.

Magnuson, I'm an old school beer brewer. So, I sparge. I don't squeeze or any of the other extraction methods for those who ferment on the grain. I have a recirculation pump when I lauter so its is easy to sparge. But that's my process. Others do it differently.

I'm sure that you can carry more grain flavors if you ferment on the grain. Also, you may possibly increase the yield a little too. I'm happy with my process and believe it or not, I have no problem drinking my whiskey. Tastey.
ss

[magnuson25]

So I let all the grains sit together to convert the Starnes to a sugar for about 2 hours now and I just did an iodine test and it is still not showing it has converted... any suggestion on what to do so I don't ruin this batch? I heated the 5 gallons of water to 165 and then added my flaked rye and corn. I the. Let that gel and stirred it occasionally until the temperature got to 152 and then I added in my malted barley. Let that sit 2 hours and when I just checked it now, my temperature is at 140 and it hasn't converted using the iodine test.

I have to say that when I tasted the mash originally when it was just started and then tasted it now, it certainly tastes sweet now.

Any suggestions?

[corene1]

Just looking at the grain bill and it doesn't appear to have enough enzymes in the small amount of malted barley. I am assuming it is supposed to be 1/2 pound malted barley and not 1/5 pound and 5 gallons of water. Did you supplement with liquid enzymes? Was it flaked corn or roled corn? Flaked corn is pre geletinized so not much cooking is needed. Rolled corn on the other hand takes a good hot cook to extract the starches for conversion. Either way you need more enzymes to convert the batch be it more malted barley or liquid enzymes.
6 Pounds of Rolled Rye
3 1/2 Pounds of Rolled Corn
1/5 Pound of Malted Barley
5 Pounds of Water

[magnuson25]

Corene1,
I am sorry, it was 1/2 pound of Malted Barley. The corn didn't look like it was "flaked" like the rye, but thats what they said it was at the brew store. What is my best course of action at this point? Can I add more malted barley right now or should I heat it back up and add more? I did not use any liquid enzymes.

[amdamgraham]

I'm going to invite abuse here but when you are fermenting on grain there are so many chunks of starch hanging around that are not ground fine enough to get fully exposed that you are never going to get a clean iodine test. Note: there are lots of discussions here about grain grinds and the pros/cons of how fine you go depending on the type of still you run. Anyway, If you followed a standard recipe and used the recommended grains and amounts then I imagine that someone else had already calculated the DP - the Diastatic Power of the grain bill. If the mash tasted like grains originally but now it tastes like sweet grains that's a good sign that you had some decent starch conversion. Let it sit for awhile and settle out a bit, like overnight. Starch conversion continues albeit on a declining curve for a long time. After an overnight sit there will likely be a clearish yellow layer of liquid on the top as it separates. If you don't yet have the necessary tools to measure the specific gravity of that liquid (get a hand-held refractometer soon) then pitch your yeast and see what happens, then take a specific gravity test after the ferment is done and see where you are at. All grain batches don't yield high amounts of alcohol - probably about 4% but I feel that the flavors are worth it.

[corene1]

As a rule of thumb it typically takes 30 points of diastatic power to convert 1 pound of grain so if you have 10 pounds of grain that would require 300 points of diastatic power to convert the grain bill . A good 6 row malted barley has right at 140 points so it is capable of converting 5 pounds of grain. Your grain bill needs at least 2 pounds of malted barley to get a good conversion 3 would give you a little added insurance, or use liquid enzymes to help optimize conversion. So at this point you may be able to reheat the grains and cook them a while to get a better starch release then add at least 2-1/2 pounds of milled malted barley at 150 degrees , the addition of the grain should drop the mash temp close to 148 then hold it there for at least 60 minuets a bit more if possible and stir it occasionally. You really do need some basic equipment for measuring SG and FG of the mash just for accuracy. Look up Briess grains and look around , it will show the different DP's of different grains. All grain mashes are pretty basic but a strict procedure must be maintained. Proper cooking of the unmalted grains at the proper temperatures and proper mashing temperatures are critical , especially when working with rolled or cracked corn and rolled rye, both will thicken up in a heartbeat. There are tons of writeups on the proper cooking of corn here on HD you may want to investigate them a little deeper. Here is a link to Briess grains,http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Default.htm

[still_stirrin]

Here is a link to Briess grains:

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Great words Corene. The OP needs a little more experience with grain mashing. But you explained it well. I wanted to help by making the link "hot" for you.

Cheers.
ss

[Odin]

Okay, I'll take sides. More organics present for a longer time in a warm, wet environment that's pretty sour helps esterification. Taste formation. So on the grain ferment whenever possible.

Regards, Odin.

[magnuson25]

As a rule of thumb it typically takes 30 points of diastatic power to convert 1 pound of grain so if you have 10 pounds of grain that would require 300 points of diastatic power to convert the grain bill . A good 6 row malted barley has right at 140 points so it is capable of converting 5 pounds of grain. Your grain bill needs at least 2 pounds of malted barley to get a good conversion 3 would give you a little added insurance, or use liquid enzymes to help optimize conversion. So at this point you may be able to reheat the grains and cook them a while to get a better starch release then add at least 2-1/2 pounds of milled malted barley at 150 degrees , the addition of the grain should drop the mash temp close to 148 then hold it there for at least 60 minuets a bit more if possible and stir it occasionally. You really do need some basic equipment for measuring SG and FG of the mash just for accuracy. Look up Briess grains and look around , it will show the different DP's of different grains. All grain mashes are pretty basic but a strict procedure must be maintained. Proper cooking of the unmalted grains at the proper temperatures and proper mashing temperatures are critical , especially when working with rolled or cracked corn and rolled rye, both will thicken up in a heartbeat. There are tons of writeups on the proper cooking of corn here on HD you may want to investigate them a little deeper. Here is a link to Briess grains,http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Default.htm

Thank you a lot! It was very helpful. I reheated my mash back to 150 and added 1 1/2 pound more of the Malted Barley and let it rest for 2 hours. Now just waiting for it to cool and we will see where this goes

[MichiganCornhusker]

Sometimes it's difficult to get a good iodine check with corn.
Check your SG, sounds like you have pretty good conversion if it's sweet.