Thumper with a column?

[fqu8847]

Had this question posed to me, and I have no freaking clue as how to answer. Thought I'd pool the collective. Friend of mine asked about using a thumper to "infuse" flavor in a spirit. Not so bad to answer, right? Problem is he uses a column which gives about 93%+ already. His idea was to put a thumper in after the downspout instead of a product condenser. So instead of collecting straight from the column he would run the vapor into the thumper. Now, to this I replied, "the higher the abv the less flavor you will get". His rebuttal was such:
If I fill it with water, would that not decrease the proof? And if that water happened to be a flavored water of say... apples or peaches... would it not give you an extremely clean, flavored spirit coming out?
I have no idea. The filler charge in his thumper might act as a buffer and decrease the proof enough to get flavor through it. A neutral running into a "thumper/buffer" to reduce the proof and flavor? What's the thoughts on this?

[BoisBlancBoy]

As to whether or not that would work I'm not sure. My thoughts would be this. His column would have to be a Vapor Management so that you would be injecting vapor into the thumper. But because of the slow take off speeds of a column I'm not sure it would be enough to heat the thumper and start producing its own vapor, instead just condensing the columns vapor in the thumper and slowly filling. Possibly done with an external heat source on the thumper maybe.

[Havenor]

I'd be curious how it turns out. I was thinking of doing the same thing but my column typically gets me to about 70-80% abv. I'm thinking I could boost that with a thumper and pick up some underlying taste? I've never used a thumper so I don't know if my thinking is misguided, a waste of time, or worth trying. I was going to stick a thumper between the column and the condenser, remove all packing, and see what happens.

[LWTCS]

Some flavorings can come over with a very acrid finish if too much high proof is used.

I feel like overcoming the heat loss would be challenging if using a true thumper set up.
Whats wrong with a gin basket?

[fqu8847]

I suppose there is nothing wrong with a gin basket, sir... only thing I can figure is he wanted a clear, flavored spirit and can't really put the ingredients in a gin basket. I am more curious as to whether or not the theory of adding water to the thumper could effectively lower the proof enough to flavor it. That is where my speculation comes from regarding this.

[ericrichards420]

Sounds like to me he wants to use a gin basket and maybe add fruit for flavor. At least that's what I would do.

[Skipper1953]

If the column is providing a high proof product to the thumper, the flavor has likely already been stripped away. Simply cutting the proof in the thumper will not improve the flavor. Or, have I missed something?

[Kareltje]

This makes me think of http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=60563

According to der wo it is advisable to put the Geist-basket before the column, rather than after the column.
But I did not try that myself.

[fqu8847]

Thank you, K. Will read up on that. Skipper, the point he was getting at was to cut the proof in the thumper with flavors. Thus taking the neutral spirit from the column, which is flavorless, and adding flavor through infusion in the thumper. Essentially a flavored drink, made from a complete neutral, coming out at a drinkable proof, in one run. Eric, not having experience with a gin basket, I couldn't argue that point with him. He did, however, mention maple syrup and honey in his idea, which leads me to believe the thumper would be better with those than a basket.

[corene1]

Just a shot in the dark but can he detune the column and throw a bunch of heat to it to lower the initial proof of the spirit. Seems like he would need to throw a bunch of heat into it to get enough thermal transfer to get the thumper producing. I guess knowing what kind of column it is would be helpful also.

[fqu8847]

I don't know. I will ask next time he's around. I think his whole idea was wanting a completely unflavored spirit entering the pot... still clueless with this one to be honest.

[Antler24]

I'm Talkin outta my ass here, I've never run a column and don't have a thumper, but I'll add my $.02 anyway.

Unless you have a second heat source under the thumper it'll smear everything. You run it too slow and the abv is so high that you'd be into the tails before the thumper gets hot enough, and everything will condense in the thumper. Youd basically have a PAINFULLY slow, steam fired pot still.

That's just my opinion. Try it and let us know what happens!

[fqu8847]

Oh hell! I don't think I'll ever try it... he might, in which case I'll update for sure. The thought of a painfully slow steam still seems horrible. Perhaps this should be looked at closer before I prod him to try it.

[Antler24]

Oh hell! I don't think I'll ever try it... he might, in which case I'll update for sure. The thought of a painfully slow steam still seems horrible. Perhaps this should be looked at closer before I prod him to try it.

If he's wondering about product, I'd think you'd get the same end result by dumping the thumper charge into the boiker with the wash and run it in a pot still

[fqu8847]

While I can almost agree with that antler, I'm going to say that the flavor profile would be slightly more intense. Messaged him today to ask about any progress he'd made. Starting to get curious now... may have to do it myself eventually. Take my ccvm run it into a heated thumper full of some honey/apple/water mix. See what happens.

[Antler24]

While I can almost agree with that antler, I'm going to say that the flavor profile would be slightly more intense. Messaged him today to ask about any progress he'd made. Starting to get curious now... may have to do it myself eventually. Take my ccvm run it into a heated thumper full of some honey/apple/water mix. See what happens.

It would be an interesting for sure. I'm hoping to have my thumper done soon. Thinking about running a 12 gallon sweet feed wash through thumper charged with Mead.

[yakattack]

So no one has given you the obvious solution yet so I might as well. Do your reflux run. Collect vodka. Cut to 20 to 30 percent. Fill boiler. Add flavoring compounds... flavored water. Fruit. Ect. Run as pot still. Clear selective flavored spirits.

Your welcome

[BoisBlancBoy]

So no one has given you the obvious solution yet so I might as well. Do your reflux run. Collect vodka. Cut to 20 to 30 percent. Fill boiler. Add flavoring compounds... flavored water. Fruit. Ect. Run as pot still. Clear selective flavored spirits.

Your welcome

What Yak said. Just to add a little. If you did what yak said but just ran a normal pot still with thumper and added all the flavorings to the thumper you'd get the best results.

[Antler24]

So no one has given you the obvious solution yet so I might as well. Do your reflux run. Collect vodka. Cut to 20 to 30 percent. Fill boiler. Add flavoring compounds... flavored water. Fruit. Ect. Run as pot still. Clear selective flavored spirits.

Your welcome

What Yak said. Just to add a little. If you did what yak said but just ran a normal pot still with thumper and added all the flavorings to the thumper you'd get the best results.

He wasn't asking for a solution, he asked what we think would happen.

[pfshine]

Who ever said 93% is flavorless? In my bubbler with inline thumper there is still loads of flavor at that %. If we knew what kind of column he had I could go into a couple designs that would most likely work. Unless it's a boka.

[fqu8847]

Pfshine, I helped him build it! It's a ccvm similar to dads. Built it for him right after I got mine done. Also... most of the higher content neutrals are above 90% (so I'm told) his can do 93% easily, and it is pretty decent drop. Antler, I was asking what would happen. Think the idea he was getting at was one run to accomplish both! If I do it though, I will definitely add it back to a pot with water to redistill! (May do that at my craft biz if I ever get it going)

[skow69]

A thumper works because you feed hot vapor into it. If you feed it the output from a column it won't have enough heat to reboil. You will have to heat it from another source which means it is not a thumper, just another pot distillation.

[fqu8847]

Thank you skow! And everyone else that has put in their experiences/ideas! I will definitely pass this one when we get together to try his plan! Also... if I ever start one of my own I will post pics with flavors, and my initial thoughts!

[Havenor]

I can't speak for the original poster but this is what I was looking to accomplish on mine, and how I was going to approach it. First, I'm not looking to boost the ABV as much as I am trying to filter out fusels and add some underlying flavor. The higher abv is OK, but it isn't my goal since I'm already around 70-75% abv. I'm looking to make a quality rum. I might be wrong but I believe most quality rums, or the substantial part of it is done in the "process" not in added essence or other flavors after distillation is done. To that goal I wanted to add some of my molasses based wash with alcohol, maybe 50 proof, and use that in a 3 liter thumper with a 6 gallon wash. Does my thinking make sense?

[Antler24]

I can't speak for the original poster but this is what I was looking to accomplish on mine, and how I was going to approach it. First, I'm not looking to boost the ABV as much as I am trying to filter out fusels and add some underlying flavor. The higher abv is OK, but it isn't my goal since I'm already around 70-75% abv. I'm looking to make a quality rum. I might be wrong but I believe most quality rums, or the substantial part of it is done in the "process" not in added essence or other flavors after distillation is done. To that goal I wanted to add some of my molasses based wash with alcohol, maybe 50 proof, and use that in a 3 liter thumper with a 6 gallon wash. Does my thinking make sense?

That should give you more flavour but your thumper needs to be at least 2/3 the size of your boiler. Also after you do your cuts keep all those tails and put in the thumper on future batches. Alot of guys think this is a key part of the process the "big guys" use to add flavour.

[Havenor]

I've read various things on what the size of the thumper should be and I don't see a consensus. It would seem to me as though the answer to the correct sizing would be more about ones ultimate goal. Since my goal was more about flavor than boosting the abv I thought I could go smaller? I can always change the size later if it's a problem since I have a fitting off the column, and another off the condenser. I can really stick any size in between without too much work.

[Antler24]

I've read various things on what the size of the thumper should be and I don't see a consensus. It would seem to me as though the answer to the correct sizing would be more about ones ultimate goal. Since my goal was more about flavor than boosting the abv I thought I could go smaller? I can always change the size later if it's a problem since I have a fitting off the column, and another off the condenser. I can really stick any size in between without too much work.

Once your boiker is producing vapor it still takes a while for the thumper to heat up. Until it does everything is condensing in the thumper, increasing the volume,

[skow69]

There isn't any penalty for using an oversized thumper. The problem comes from using one that is too small or putting too much precharge in it so that it fills up and pukes into your condenser.

[NZChris]

I can't speak for the original poster but this is what I was looking to accomplish on mine, and how I was going to approach it. First, I'm not looking to boost the ABV as much as I am trying to filter out fusels and add some underlying flavor. The higher abv is OK, but it isn't my goal since I'm already around 70-75% abv. I'm looking to make a quality rum. I might be wrong but I believe most quality rums, or the substantial part of it is done in the "process" not in added essence or other flavors after distillation is done. To that goal I wanted to add some of my molasses based wash with alcohol, maybe 50 proof, and use that in a 3 liter thumper with a 6 gallon wash. Does my thinking make sense?

Adding alcohol dilutes flavor, no matter how you go about it.

Think about building a double thumper/effect Jamaican style still

A lot of rums are blends of different styles of ferments and distilling protocols and you would have to be a very clever fellow to get close to the rums of your choice with single ferment and distillation protocols.

There are no fusel filters that I am aware of and, if there is, I'm sure I can't afford one. You can either cut them or convert them into flavours you prefer. If there is a cheap third option, I would love to hear it.

The quality rums you like may well use essence, but they don't buy it at your HBS. It is created using dunder, skimmings, cane trash and lees.

[Havenor]

Thanks for the response. So using a thumper would not act as a filter of sorts? I was under the impression that if the steam vapor generated off the still was going through the liquid in the thumper then some nastys would naturally end up in the thumper.