George Washington Rye?

[SAS777]

I'm trying to make my first batch of George Washington Rye. I found a 6 gallon recipe that calls for: 7 lbs. of Rye, 2 lbs. of flaked corn, and 1 lb. of malted barley.

I picked-up the ingredients from my local supplier, and closely followed the instructions. After it cooled, I added EC-1118 yeast. Soon after adding the yeast (Later that day), it started working. 3-days later (today), I noticed an unpleasant smell, like sulfur coming from my fermenter.

Is that a normal smell?
Or, am I screwed, and have to throw-it-out?

[shadylane]

3 days of fermenting and you talk about throwing it out?
That sounds sacrilegious to me

[SAS777]

No, not throwing it out. Just asking a question if what I smell is normal, or not.

[shadylane]

I start worrying, when a fermenting mash starts smelling like a shitty diaper
All the other smells seem to be Ok

[SAS777]

I like that!
No shitty diaper smell yet.

[still_stirrin]

Did you add yeast nutrients?

Did you oxygenate the mash before the start of fermentation?

What was the mash temperature during the saccrification?

What temperature are you fermenting at? The Lalvin champagne yeast is better suited for sugar and fruit washes, so it's not ideal for a grain ferment. But the yeast likes slightly cooler ferment temperatures than an ale or bread yeast would.

To answer your question...no, excessive sulfur (rotten eggs) is NOT normal. But, in order to troubleshoot it, I need more info.
ss

[still_stirrin]

And I see that you had a 10 lb. grainbill for a 6 gallon ferment. That would make your OG quite low. Have you checked the gravity now (after 3 days)? Your ferment might be done, or in the finishing stages.

[Kegg_jam]

Wrong yeast.

Had the same smell with 1118 and a corn/barley mash. I think it eventually went away though.

[SAS777]

Did you add yeast nutrients?

Did you oxygenate the mash before the start of fermentation?

What was the mash temperature during the saccrification?

What temperature are you fermenting at? The Lalvin champagne yeast is better suited for sugar and fruit washes, so it's not ideal for a grain ferment. But the yeast likes slightly cooler ferment temperatures than an ale or bread yeast would.

To answer your question...no, excessive sulfur (rotten eggs) is NOT normal. But, in order to troubleshoot it, I need more info.
ss

No. I did not add yeast nutrients.

This is what I did:

Heated ~6 gallons of water to 170 F.
Added ~1 gallon of 170 F water to my 10 gallon insulted mash tun, and stirred in some of the gains.
I kept alternating from water to grain, stirring all the time, until I had all of the grain, and approx. 4 gallons of the water well mixed into in my insulated mash tun.
After I added all the grain and water, the temp dropped to 153 F, target was 156, so I added more hot water to bring up the temp.
I let it set for 90 minutes (recipe says "let it set for 60 minutes"). After 90 min., I drained it into my fermenter bucket, then poured ~5 gallons of ~200 degree F sparge water over the remaining grains.
I took a reading of 1.018. Wanting it higher, I added 7 lbs. of corn sugar (I don't have my notes in front of me, so I don't recall the exact SG, the potential alcohol was ~12%).
After the temp cooled down to ~86F, I took another clean and sanitized bucket, and poured it back and forth a number of times to help oxygenated it, then added the yeast, and closed it up with an airlock.

[still_stirrin]

With a strike temperature of 170*F you more than likely denatured most of the enzymes in the malt. I ALWAYS bring my mash temperature "up from the bottom" rather than trying to pitch the malt into water that is too hot. You can warm a mash in a couple of ways. But if you're too hot, you'll shut the enzymes off.

So, you're basically fermenting the sugar wash.

And fermenting EC-1118 at 86*F is too warm, likely to product off flavors there too, even for the usually clean fermenting champagne yeast.

Bottomline here....you need to follow the Tried & True recipes until you have a good control over your processes. You've followed a "potluck" recipe with a "potluck" process. Don't be surprised if what you get out of it is "potluck".
ss

[der wo]

Another thread with a failed first time AG and as always the same mistakes:
Low malt content and no added enzymes, no gelatinizing, a "simple" recipe like "dump everything in at XXX F and wait an hour"

[rager]

Another thread with a failed first time AG and as always the same mistakes:
Low malt content and no added enzymes, no gelatinizing, a "simple" recipe like "dump everything in at XXX F and wait an hour"

pretty much. a single malt mashed in at the right temp is pretty easy thats how i started following jimbos thread. obviously things get different with other grains but the right research will bring success

[SAS777]

I just got back to reading all of the replies (work gets in the way). Great info from everyone!
I like to think of myself as a novice. But I in reality, I guess I'm just a beginner.
After trying the recipe that I mentioned, and reading everyone's replies, I realize that I made many mistakes.

I really want to try and make a true "George Washington Rye," but temporally, lack the know how.

Again, thank you all very much!!

[MichiganCornhusker]

Don't give up, SAS, you're actually very close.

Just throw in an extra pound of malt next time and keep temps below 150F when mashing.

Mix your grains:water at a 2lbs:gallon ratio. Dump all of it into your fermenter, you can strain it later.

Use bakers yeast for warmer temps, or something like US-05 for cooler temps.

Reading the AG recipes here will give you "know how" you need to make any spirit you choose.
Best, most reliable info on the web.

Btw, how did the sugarhead turn out? It should have produced an ok spirit.

[RickRay]

I wouldn't worry about a sulfur smell. I brew a lot of beer and ciders, some yeasts produce sulfur some don't. They tend to gas the sulfur off given time, about two weeks.

[SAS777]

Update:
As some of you have told me, the sulfur smell did go away over time.
It did take longer than I expected to finish fermenting. After two weeks, I checked the SG and it was 1.014. I racked it into another carboy and waited two more weeks, then checked it again, this time the SG was 0.998.
I did a stripping run, but something came-up and was unable to run it a second-time. I have it stored in a cool place, and hope to do a second run on it next weekend.

I have no idea if it will be any good, or not?? I do like the smell and the flavor of it (took a small sip). But don't want to try drinking any of it, since I didn't separated the foreshots and tails.

I will do another update after I do a second run.

[Smokee]

Update:
As some of you have told me, the sulfur smell did go away over time.
It did take longer than I expected to finish fermenting. After two weeks, I checked the SG and it was 1.014. I racked it into another carboy and waited two more weeks, then checked it again, this time the SG was 0.998.
I did a stripping run, but something came-up and was unable to run it a second-time. I have it stored in a cool place, and hope to do a second run on it next weekend.

I have no idea if it will be any good, or not?? I do like the smell and the flavor of it (took a small sip). But don't want to try drinking any of it, since I didn't separated the foreshots and tails.

I will do another update after I do a second run.

That's great news! I've been working on my own recipe for the last 4-5 months and just recently got it to ferment down to 1.00. Mine did the same, would stop around 1.014. The last time was the first it went below, I didn't do much different but I put together another one last night and it's bubbling away...I hope this one ferments down like the last.

Please post how it turns out. I originally thought of trying George's recipe but decided to work up my own grain-bill and go it alone. I have about a gallon and a half stripped, will do the final distillation when I have two and a half gallons. I like to see someone thinking outside the box, I don't subscribe to the "You have to use this recipe". Give what you're thinking a try and if you get frustrated or can't make it work then go with something tried and true.

[Tater]

I just got back to reading all of the replies (work gets in the way). Great info from everyone!
I like to think of myself as a novice. But I in reality, I guess I'm just a beginner.
After trying the recipe that I mentioned, and reading everyone's replies, I realize that I made many mistakes.

I really want to try and make a true "George Washington Rye," but temporally, lack the know how.

Again, thank you all very much!!

been after his recipe myself . Have sourced what I think is correct corn and rye .Still reading some history to try to find type barley grown in that area back then.

[greggn]

> I really want to try and make a true "George Washington Rye,"


I doubt that George used flaked corn.

[Smokee]

I just got back to reading all of the replies (work gets in the way). Great info from everyone!
I like to think of myself as a novice. But I in reality, I guess I'm just a beginner.
After trying the recipe that I mentioned, and reading everyone's replies, I realize that I made many mistakes.

I really want to try and make a true "George Washington Rye," but temporally, lack the know how.

Again, thank you all very much!!

been after his recipe myself . Have sourced what I think is correct corn and rye .Still reading some history to try to find type barley grown in that area back then.

They offer tours of Mt. Vernon, I've been kicking the idea around of a road trip. The guy that runs it supposedly knows all things G.W., I'd imagine he'd know this.

If I make it down in January I'll be sure to ask.

[Tater]

I just got back to reading all of the replies (work gets in the way). Great info from everyone!
I like to think of myself as a novice. But I in reality, I guess I'm just a beginner.
After trying the recipe that I mentioned, and reading everyone's replies, I realize that I made many mistakes.

I really want to try and make a true "George Washington Rye," but temporally, lack the know how.

Again, thank you all very much!!

been after his recipe myself . Have sourced what I think is correct corn and rye .Still reading some history to try to find type barley grown in that area back then.

They offer tours of Mt. Vernon, I've been kicking the idea around of a road trip. The guy that runs it supposedly knows all things G.W., I'd imagine he'd know this.

If I make it down in January I'll be sure to ask.

They dont from what Ive read

[Smokee]

I just got back to reading all of the replies (work gets in the way). Great info from everyone!
I like to think of myself as a novice. But I in reality, I guess I'm just a beginner.
After trying the recipe that I mentioned, and reading everyone's replies, I realize that I made many mistakes.

I really want to try and make a true "George Washington Rye," but temporally, lack the know how.

Again, thank you all very much!!

been after his recipe myself . Have sourced what I think is correct corn and rye .Still reading some history to try to find type barley grown in that area back then.

They offer tours of Mt. Vernon, I've been kicking the idea around of a road trip. The guy that runs it supposedly knows all things G.W., I'd imagine he'd know this.

If I make it down in January I'll be sure to ask.

They dont from what Ive read

They're closed November thru March...I remember reading that now. They do offer tours April - October.

http://www.mountvernon.org/the-estate-g ... gristmill/


Smokee

[craftsman]

I have been making GW's rye for many years. I used 1118 EC during the winter months and just plain bread yeast when the weather is warm. Lately for the last 2-years during cooler and freezing weather, I switched to Red Star Premier Cuvee Wine Yeast (PDM) S. Bayanus. It has a wide range of temps to ferment at. I have had some ferments going at 40-50 deg F. I do have an indoor semi/ heated area. Temps never get below 50 DEG and seldom get above 70 deg. I get no noticeable off flavors and sometimes get AG ferments in the 8-10 % range. Usually I try to target 12% and mashes with sugar 15-16-%

Following GW's grain bill of 65, 30 and 5. I make sure that 25% (16.25) of my rye is ground up in a blender, and the remaining portion is cracked well through the mill. I use cracked corn and breiss 2-row pale malt. GW's Rye also called for gypsum, however, my water is neutral to slightly acid with no need to use gypsum.

Always cook the cracked corn first anything over 170 deg. I have even used boiling water on the corn. Always stir the corn. At 170 I add alpha amylase to the corn and let it rest for 1hr. I then have to immerse a chiller to get the temp down to 145-150 deg. I add in the rye at 140 and stir the crap out of the 2-grain mixture. I let temp drop to 120 deg, then heat it back up to 140 Deg. Then I add in my malted grain and stir frequently for about 20-min. I let every thing rest for 1-hr at this point. http://homedistiller.org/forum/posting. ... 15&t=63659#

When the mash is cool enough to pitch the yeast, I add whatever amount I need to meet the volume of mash I am making. (usually 10-20 gal.) Just follow the directions on the yeast pkg. I usually add the yeast around 80 Deg. I ferment RYE on the grain. I use an airlock. My fermenting containers are 15-gal.

Sugar: I have made it both ways with and without. I never over do the sugar by never going over 1lb/gal. If you use your hydrometer and measure beginning mash, It will or should read about 1.05 to 1.07 with sugar and without sugar, if you have the scarification of the grain right It will read about 1.04-1.05, and occasionally 1.06. As for the grain ,I failed to mention I use 1.5 pounds per gallon of mash in winter and 2-lbs per gal. in the warm weather. I always distill RYE and Bourbon in a pot still with a thumper charged with mash, crappy beer, and low wines. The alcohol off usually ranges 140-160 proof or (70-80 trall) (If you use clear water in the thumper, expect the alcohol off to be 120-140)
I stop collecting when my alcometer gets to 80 proof. I like my alcohol at 110-115 proof before I oak it.
I always age my Rye on a heavy toasted oak. I think old George would be proud. 6-Months to a year later..... smooth! I have been making GW rye this way for 20-yrs. I cut finished product down to 90-Proof using distilled water. http://homedistiller.org/forum/posting. ... 15&t=63659#

[Tater]

I have been making GW's rye for many years. I used 1118 EC during the winter months and just plain bread yeast when the weather is warm. Lately for the last 2-years during cooler and freezing weather, I switched to Red Star Premier Cuvee Wine Yeast (PDM) S. Bayanus. It has a wide range of temps to ferment at. I have had some ferments going at 40-50 deg F. I do have an indoor semi/ heated area. Temps never get below 50 DEG and seldom get above 70 deg. I get no noticeable off flavors and sometimes get AG ferments in the 8-10 % range. Usually I try to target 12% and mashes with sugar 15-16-%

Following GW's grain bill of 65, 30 and 5. I make sure that 25% (16.25) of my rye is ground up in a blender, and the remaining portion is cracked well through the mill. I use cracked corn and breiss 2-row pale malt. GW's Rye also called for gypsum, however, my water is neutral to slightly acid with no need to use gypsum.

Always cook the cracked corn first anything over 170 deg. I have even used boiling water on the corn. Always stir the corn. At 170 I add alpha amylase to the corn and let it rest for 1hr. I then have to immerse a chiller to get the temp down to 145-150 deg. I add in the rye at 140 and stir the crap out of the 2-grain mixture. I let temp drop to 120 deg, then heat it back up to 140 Deg. Then I add in my malted grain and stir frequently for about 20-min. I let every thing rest for 1-hr at this point. http://homedistiller.org/forum/posting. ... 15&t=63659#

When the mash is cool enough to pitch the yeast, I add whatever amount I need to meet the volume of mash I am making. (usually 10-20 gal.) Just follow the directions on the yeast pkg. I usually add the yeast around 80 Deg. I ferment RYE on the grain. I use an airlock. My fermenting containers are 15-gal.

Sugar: I have made it both ways with and without. I never over do the sugar by never going over 1lb/gal. If you use your hydrometer and measure beginning mash, It will or should read about 1.05 to 1.07 with sugar and without sugar, if you have the scarification of the grain right It will read about 1.04-1.05, and occasionally 1.06. As for the grain ,I failed to mention I use 1.5 pounds per gallon of mash in winter and 2-lbs per gal. in the warm weather. I always distill RYE and Bourbon in a pot still with a thumper charged with mash, crappy beer, and low wines. The alcohol off usually ranges 140-160 proof or (70-80 trall) (If you use clear water in the thumper, expect the alcohol off to be 120-140)
I stop collecting when my alcometer gets to 80 proof. I like my alcohol at 110-115 proof before I oak it.
I always age my Rye on a heavy toasted oak. I think old George would be proud. 6-Months to a year later..... smooth! I have been making GW rye this way for 20-yrs. I cut finished product down to 90-Proof using distilled water. http://homedistiller.org/forum/posting. ... 15&t=63659#

wonder where george got his 1118ec and bread yeast. what type corn and rye are you using and barley? http://www.mountvernon.org/the-estate-g ... istillery/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Tater]

Recipe I would thing was this fellows http://www.mountvernon.org/digital-ency ... -anderson/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Antler24]

I start worrying, when a fermenting mash starts smelling like a shitty diaper
All the other smells seem to be Ok

I start worrying when the airlock stops, but the lid starts swelling on the fermenter lol

[Euphoria]

Recipe I would thing was this fellows http://www.mountvernon.org/digital-ency ... -anderson/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I clicked the link and I couldn't find anything at all on his recipe.

[Tater]

Recipe I would thing was this fellows http://www.mountvernon.org/digital-ency ... -anderson/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I clicked the link and I couldn't find anything at all on his recipe.

he was washingtons farm manager and distiller.not been able to find lot info on his methods http://interactive.archaeology.org/mtve ... erson.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow