Amylase question!

[dzul]

So i have done a few sugar washes and distilled them successfully to attempt to learn my reflux still. I figured i would attempt an all wheat mash since it is readily available. Used brewers friend to calculate mash temps, O.G. potential F.G. etc.

Recipe:
20 LB raw milled white wheat
1.25 quarts/lb water
initial mash temp 154 F
Added two teaspoons of BSG Amylase enzymes, stirred every 15 mins, and temp decreased over course of about 1.5 hours down to 146F. Conversion was horrendous. Iodine test failed, O.G. test was 1.03 when brewers calc estimated it at 1.086. I added another teaspoon enzyme and waited another 30 mins stirring every 10 mins, no change. Am i missing something here? Why would the conversion be so poor? Any help would be much appreciated.

dzul

[Tater]

If Im reading you right you need more water per lb grain.

[dzul]

I have read anywhere from 1.25q/lb to 2q/lb of strike water for mashing. I am attempting to achieve a high gravity. With the lower water content am i inhibiting the ability of the enzymes?

[Tater]

thats 20lbs grain in 6.25 gallons water way i read it.Thats just not gonna work ya need to read up on grains for sure on parent site. around 2 lbs grain per gallon is about max I would try.

[shadylane]

.......Added two teaspoons of BSG Amylase enzymes.....dzul

Is this the enzyme you have?
http://bsghandcraft.com/index.php/proce ... -1-lb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
On a side note
I prefer 1.5 to 2lbs of grain per gallon
But 3 or 4 maybe possible, depending on how much you want to torture yourself for higher gravity

[dzul]

.......Added two teaspoons of BSG Amylase enzymes.....dzul

Is this the enzyme you have?
http://bsghandcraft.com/index.php/proce ... -1-lb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
On a side note
I prefer 1.5 to 2lbs of grain per gallon
But 3 or 4 maybe possible, depending on how much you want to torture yourself for higher gravity

yes it is

[dzul]

thats 20lbs grain in 6.25 gallons water way i read it.Thats just not gonna work ya need to read up on grains for sure on parent site. around 2 lbs grain per gallon is about max I would try.

Which would be the 2q/lb, which the parent site recommends under grain/mashing. I was attempting to achieve high gravity at the 1.25q/lb but with enzymes and no malt might not be achievable i guess, i will up the water quantity and try again. (wheat is very cheap for me ~$0.12/lb). But before i do another mash is that the only issue you notice? Temperatures were ran in the "recommended range" from parent site grain/enzymes.

[shadylane]

Those BSG Amylase enzymes are alpha amylase
You have done the first part of the conversion
Now you need a gluco enzyme to finish the job

[dzul]

Those BSG Amylase enzymes are alpha amylase
You have done the first part of the conversion
Now you need a gluco enzyme to finish the job

Where would i get glucanase enzymes? Are they only in malted barely?

[teh721]

Check out: https://enzymash.biz/index.php?route=pr ... ry&path=33" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

They sell both enzymes and have gotten really good reviews here on the HD forum. Also pick up a small bottle of iodine from your local drugstore, thats the best way I know of to really test if you've gotten a full conversion.

good luck!
TEH721

[dzul]

Check out: https://enzymash.biz/index.php?route=pr ... ry&path=33" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

They sell both enzymes and have gotten really good reviews here on the HD forum. Also pick up a small bottle of iodine from your local drugstore, thats the best way I know of to really test if you've gotten a full conversion.

good luck!
TEH721

Thanks for the site link! I do have some iodine and used it, failed on my last mash haha

[shadylane]

Just a thought
An Iodine test will only detect starch.
You could "theoretically" have converted all the starch but have no fermentable sugars.

[dzul]

Thank everbody with the help so far

[MichiganCornhusker]

I am attempting to achieve a high gravity.

Why?

[dzul]

I am attempting to achieve a high gravity.

Why?

higher alcohol content, therefore higher yield.

[Truckinbutch]

I am attempting to achieve a high gravity.

Why?

higher alcohol content, therefore higher yield.

And the potential for a lower quality product .

[NcHooch]

I'm curious about a couple things ...
1) I would think 20 pounds of milled wheat in 6 gallons of water must've been like pudding ... No? I'd definitely recommend something closer to 10 gallons .
2) I've never heard of a 100% wheat whiskey (or beer) so I'm wondering where you got this idea.

A mash like that might require more than 1 step (like a protein rest too)

[dzul]

I am attempting to achieve a high gravity.

Why?

higher alcohol content, therefore higher yield.

And the potential for a lower quality product .

so an O.G. of 1.08 ish will create a lower quality product? I def need to take that in to consideration on the next run. thanks!
Also what is it about a higer O.G. that makes potential for lower quality?

[dzul]

I'm curious about a couple things ...
1) I would think 20 pounds of milled wheat in 6 gallons of water must've been like pudding ... No? I'd definitely recommend something closer to 10 gallons .
2) I've never heard of a 100% wheat whiskey (or beer) so I'm wondering where you got this idea.

A mash like that might require more than 1 step (like a protein rest too)

1) it was fairly thick! the parent site says under grain/enzymes 1.5q/lb is near optimal for water to grist ratio. so is it 2q/lb or 1.5q/lb

2) dryfly distillery makes a 100% wheat whiskey which i think is fantastic, they probably use a fair amount of malted wheat instead of enzymes though

[MichiganCornhusker]

higher alcohol content, therefore higher yield.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a smartazz.
Conventional wisdom here is that whiskey mashes work much better when aiming for an OG of around 1.060-1.065.
The higher gravity ferments tend to stress the yeast more, producing a less tasty product.

That OG can be achieved with around 2# grain per gallon water, maybe a bit more grain if you aren't getting perfect conversion rates.

With all of that said, I often do mash thick. My usual bourbon style mash these days is about 8#corn, 4#malted rye or wheat, 2# barley malt, all in 4 gallons of water.
That puts me at around 3.5# per gallon, or just over a quart of water per pound.

I use the Sebstar HTL and SebAmyl GL liquid enzymes in addition to the malts. The high-temp HTL especially helps thin the mash and make it all workable.
I only do this because of the limit of my mashing setup. I'm sure that I would get better conversion with thinner mashes.
I'd like to add a little more volume so that I could mash thinner, but this does work for now. I can get SG around 1.095, sometimes even higher, with this method.

But I don't ferment at high gravity. When I'm done mashing I add enough water to bring the OG down to 1.065 before pitching yeast.

I don't have any experience with the BSG enzymes, but I sure wouldn't want to do this mash without the liquid enzymes.

I think keeping your mash temps under 150F will help you get more fermentables, and a thinner mash will help with conversion.
Enzymes, in any form, are not swimmers, they're not motile. So it becomes even harder for them to be effective in very thick viscous mashes.

[MichiganCornhusker]

1) it was fairly thick! the parent site says under grain/enzymes 1.5q/lb is near optimal for water to grist ratio. so is it 2q/lb or 1.5q/lb

2) dryfly distillery makes a 100% wheat whiskey which i think is fantastic, they probably use a fair amount of malted wheat instead of enzymes though

I've used 100% raw wheat before and if I do it again I'll cook it like corn.
I know they say the gelatinization temp for wheat is lower, but I figure it couldn't hurt to hit it with boiling water and high-temp liquid enzymes.
Plus, I think it would help thin it out. Keep in mind that wheat and rye mashes tend to be very thick anyway. I agree that a protein rest, or even some of the SebFlo liquid enzymes would help with viscosity.

I think the addition of some malted wheat, or even some malted barley, would make for a more interesting whiskey.

I think the difference between the 2qt/lb vs. 1.5qt/lb comes down the target OG.
If aiming for 1.065, the 2qt/lb can work out well.

[dzul]

higher alcohol content, therefore higher yield.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a smartazz.
Conventional wisdom here is that whiskey mashes work much better when aiming for an OG of around 1.060-1.065.
The higher gravity ferments tend to stress the yeast more, producing a less tasty product.

That OG can be achieved with around 2# grain per gallon water, maybe a bit more grain if you aren't getting perfect conversion rates.

With all of that said, I often do mash thick. My usual bourbon style mash these days is about 8#corn, 4#malted rye or wheat, 2# barley malt, all in 4 gallons of water.
That puts me at around 3.5# per gallon, or just over a quart of water per pound.

I use the Sebstar HTL and SebAmyl GL liquid enzymes in addition to the malts. The high-temp HTL especially helps thin the mash and make it all workable.
I only do this because of the limit of my mashing setup. I'm sure that I would get better conversion with thinner mashes.
I'd like to add a little more volume so that I could mash thinner, but this does work for now. I can get SG around 1.095, sometimes even higher, with this method.

But I don't ferment at high gravity. When I'm done mashing I add enough water to bring the OG down to 1.065 before pitching yeast.

I don't have any experience with the BSG enzymes, but I sure wouldn't want to do this mash without the liquid enzymes.

I think keeping your mash temps under 150F will help you get more fermentables, and a thinner mash will help with conversion.
Enzymes, in any form, are not swimmers, they're not motile. So it becomes even harder for them to be effective in very thick viscous mashes.

I did not take it that way no worries! haha Just trying to glean information,
thanks for the information!!

What temps do you add enzymes when using the Sebstar HTL and theSebamyl GL?

[MichiganCornhusker]

What temps do you add enzymes when using the Sebstar HTL and theSebamyl GL?

There are pdf's on the enzymash.biz website that explain how to use the products.
Keeping the temps and pH levels correct for the different enzymes isn't too awful difficult, but it is very important for their success.

There are several threads on here that you could search for using the liquid enzymes.
This one is for Booner's, which is the recipe that got the ball rolling for many of us here: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 14&t=49869

[dzul]

thanks i did not dig deep enough on there, i found them!

[shadylane]

I've used both powdered and liquid enzymes
And the Sebstar HTL and SebAmyl GL liquid enzymes wins hands down.

[Truckinbutch]

I've used both powdered and liquid enzymes
And the Sebstar HTL and SebAmyl GL liquid enzymes wins hands down.

That's what SRD and I are gearing up to use . Glad to hear positive input .

[dzul]

Enzymes ordered. Thanks for the information. Can not wait to use it. Increase water ratio, use enzymes as per instructions, maintain correct ph. Thanks again.

[MichiganCornhusker]

use enzymes as per instructions, maintain correct ph.

Yep, I just use some cheap pH strips to get close to the zone.
I get a one pound bag of "acid blend" crystals at the homebrew shop, mix it all into a quart jar of water.
I don't usually need to adjust pH for the high temp enzymes.
I usually add 1/4 cup of the acid blend juice to a each 5 gallon bucket of mash to lower the pH enough to make the SebAmyl GL enzymes happy.
That's it.
Good luck, I think you'll like using them.

[thecroweater]

You guys have easy access to great liquid enzymes , lucky buggers. Hard to get here its almost always dry enzymes and comparatively they suck, oh man why does USP international have to be the most expensive on the planet

[dzul]

Awesome info, can not wait to try it out, maybe this coming weekend!! got a motor and gear reduction for my monster mill 3. Excited to wire that up and see how it preforms compared to my 1/2 electric drill

thanks again everyone. Ill keep everyone posted