My workflow and QUESTIONS!
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My workflow and QUESTIONS!
Hi there. I'm new. I have a few questions in regards to cereal mashes that are trying to create an end product reminiscent of quality a wheated Bourbon. I've read all the FAQ and stickies and finished off The Joy of Home Distilling by Morris and Making Pure Corn Whiskey by Smiley...have yet to pick up The Compleat Distiller but it's on my to do list. Hopefully that reading will keep me out of trouble asking questions...ok here we go.
Quick background on me. I'm a pro brewer (side job) for a small place in Colorado. I also function as their QA manager/ microbiologist and have 2 degrees in it including my own home lab. It's safe to say I know a little that's going on here...but the nuances and separating it logically from the beer dogma I live by is proving difficult. If you guys could critique my proposed process, I'd much appreciate any advice. I really want to focus on a high quality spirit and a single day mash. All my vessels are direct fired with propane and keggle ~14 usable gallons in size. I'm going to be fairly wordy and order it well so you guys and gals can easily pick it apart. I'll leave an asterisk ** for specific questions I have.
1 - Grains
Mashbill
70% Whole Feed Corn (no fortifications)
20% US White Wheat Malt
10% US 2-row
I'm thinking of about 2.5 lbs of grain per gallon of water. Seems fairly thick but with my proposed shortened mash time, might run into some low extraction numbers. If this was a mash I could sparge, I'd get 1.080 easy with that grist....but it's not
21# Corn, 6#Wheat, 3# 2-row. 12 gallons of RO water (My local water is hard so I always build up from RO...it's the process control nazi in me). So 30 pounds of grain in 12 gallons. (** I've seen water to grist ratios all over the place, nothing standard like in brewing. My concern is if I'm getting too greedy and will just need more fluids. Current system is keggles to tops out around 14gal. What are the safe limits?). All grains including whole corn will be milled to my normal barley gap settings.
Strike water will be treated with 8g of CaSO4 and possibly acidified in the future with Phosphoric acid depending on mash pH level. Never had any difficulty hitting 5.2-5.5 at room tempture before but I have no idea what the buffering capacity of this much corn!
2 -Inital Strike
I plan on bringing strike/mash water to 200F (I'm at 7000' so this is pretty close to boiling anyway) then mashing in with the corn only. This should drop the temperature to below 180F. I love science so, it's enzyme time. At this point I'd add ~8ml of SEBStar HTL (@ 0.36ml/lb grain) and stir the hell out of it ~10 minutes. With that temp and the alpha-amylase action that corn doesn't stand a chance. (** Now my mash tun has removable insulation. It works VERY well. In a regular beer mash I'll only lose 2 degrees in 60 minutes once equilibrium is hit. BUT I'd really like this to be a single day grain to fermenter, so loss of heat that slow might be a bad thing. I was thinking of removing the insulation during this phase of the cereal mash. Thoughts??) If I could let the mash naturally lose temp until 145F while stirring every 30 minutes or so that would be great. 12 gallons of water+21 lbs grain + 30 lbs of stainless steel is a lot of thermal mass. I really have no idea how long it'll take to cool down, even in winter. Maybe 2-3 hours naked.
3 - Second Grain Addition
Once the mash temp hits 145, it's safe for the low temp enzymes and for the barley and wheat to be mashed in. While stirring grain in, ~11ml of SEBamyl GL (@ 0.36ml/lb grain). I chose 145F for this process to start at due to wanting max fermentability and protection for beta amylase. After a jolly good stirring, I was planning to button the mashtun up with the insulation and hold temps there for another hour or two with intermittent stirring. A pH check to make sure it's in the range of 5.2-5.5 would also be performed. Check for the presence of unconverted starches with iodine tincture. If no color change, it's time to remove the mash.
Now here's where I start to lose my mind. Remember I'm a microbiologist and vehemently try to keep contamination out of my ferments....
4 - IM COVERED IN BACTERIA
I'm not cool with just chucking this mash into a bucket and fermenting it. Sure the corn was pasteurized well but the barley and wheat have not been. Mash temp alone is not enough to pasteurize/sanitize a wort enough to prevent the growth of unwanted contamination...Clostridium, enteric bacteria, etc...they smell and taste awful...no way, it's there and ready to sprout wings. I thought of pre-acidifying the mash to ~ph 4.5 and trying to keep the oxygen away from it but my brain really REALLY wants to flash pasteurize the mash. BUT there's the issue of all that husk matter and polyphenol extraction at high temps, so it needs to be lautered (grain removed) somehow. I know, I know it sounds like I'm making beer. Another concern is that I will be fermenting low and slow (turbo yeast sounds awful, I'm avoiding it) and will not have the ability to distill the second the wort had finished fermenting. Lauter/transfer...I was thinking about taking a few fine mesh paint strainer bags, ladling the mash into them then squeezing out the wort goodness into a kettle. This is definitely going to take some time and I can't think of an elegant way to do it....maybe a clean mop bucket with compressor attachment? (** Ideas on the grain/wort separation?)
5 - Flash Pasteurization
So I've got a kettle full of squeezins. Time for an original gravity check. Will most likely be done with a refractometer. I'm hoping for 1.060-1.070. For the pasteurization, I'm just going to bring it to a boil, not a full timed one. I have heat exchanger capability so once this wort boils, I'll run it through the chiller and output into 2 sanitized buckets at 65F. This is what I want my pitching temperature to be. (** Any issues with actually boiling the wort? Other than denaturing the current enzyme load in a pseudo mash-out? I can't think of any but I've never done this before)
6 - Yeast
The yeast I was planning to use is US-05. I have lots of experience with it, it's inexpensive and ferments clean at 68F. I'll be pitching at 2x my normal beer rate of 1 million cells / ml / Degree Plato. I think that will sufficiently suppress a lot of ester formation and it most certainly will not stall at the proposed starting gravity. The dry yeast will be rehydrated per manufacture instructions but I probably won't use GoFerm. I normally have a 2:1 DAP/Fermentaid K mixture on hand for step feeding meads and ciders. I was contemplating adding a few grams of this but I've also read that excess DAP in solution then distillation can yield undesirable taste results. (** Thoughts on adding nutrient to this ferment?). I also have molecular oxygen that will be added post pitch at a rate of 1L per 5 gallons (basically bubbling in via carbstone 1 LPM for 1 min).
My fermentation chamber is capable of holding 10 gallons at 65F. Figuring the internal temperature of the bucket is slightly higher (I don't use a thermowell), I think 65F is a good spot. US-05 will chew through that sugar in 5 days. (** Thoughts on adding any exogenous enzymes at this point? For instance the Sebamyl GL or ground up Beano tablets as I killed off any leftovers during the kettle pasteurization step...just to be extra sure we're extra fermentable).
When terminal gravity is reached (hopefully 0.996! via hydrometer), fine with SuperKleer KC (chitosan/kieselsol). Cold crash and decant off sediment into boiler.
The plan is to run this 3-5 times until I have enough hooch to fill a 5 gal oak barrel for aging.
Ok that's it. Wow that was alot of typing. Please offer your guidance if you can. I'm eager to hear it. Hopefully my next big post on when it's time to distill isn't so lengthy.
For the TL;DR crowd:
1) Making Bourbon
2) No overnight mash, using enzymes
3) Scared of bacteria
4) Doesn't want to ferment on grain
5) Will do extra work if the result is better
Quick background on me. I'm a pro brewer (side job) for a small place in Colorado. I also function as their QA manager/ microbiologist and have 2 degrees in it including my own home lab. It's safe to say I know a little that's going on here...but the nuances and separating it logically from the beer dogma I live by is proving difficult. If you guys could critique my proposed process, I'd much appreciate any advice. I really want to focus on a high quality spirit and a single day mash. All my vessels are direct fired with propane and keggle ~14 usable gallons in size. I'm going to be fairly wordy and order it well so you guys and gals can easily pick it apart. I'll leave an asterisk ** for specific questions I have.
1 - Grains
Mashbill
70% Whole Feed Corn (no fortifications)
20% US White Wheat Malt
10% US 2-row
I'm thinking of about 2.5 lbs of grain per gallon of water. Seems fairly thick but with my proposed shortened mash time, might run into some low extraction numbers. If this was a mash I could sparge, I'd get 1.080 easy with that grist....but it's not
21# Corn, 6#Wheat, 3# 2-row. 12 gallons of RO water (My local water is hard so I always build up from RO...it's the process control nazi in me). So 30 pounds of grain in 12 gallons. (** I've seen water to grist ratios all over the place, nothing standard like in brewing. My concern is if I'm getting too greedy and will just need more fluids. Current system is keggles to tops out around 14gal. What are the safe limits?). All grains including whole corn will be milled to my normal barley gap settings.
Strike water will be treated with 8g of CaSO4 and possibly acidified in the future with Phosphoric acid depending on mash pH level. Never had any difficulty hitting 5.2-5.5 at room tempture before but I have no idea what the buffering capacity of this much corn!
2 -Inital Strike
I plan on bringing strike/mash water to 200F (I'm at 7000' so this is pretty close to boiling anyway) then mashing in with the corn only. This should drop the temperature to below 180F. I love science so, it's enzyme time. At this point I'd add ~8ml of SEBStar HTL (@ 0.36ml/lb grain) and stir the hell out of it ~10 minutes. With that temp and the alpha-amylase action that corn doesn't stand a chance. (** Now my mash tun has removable insulation. It works VERY well. In a regular beer mash I'll only lose 2 degrees in 60 minutes once equilibrium is hit. BUT I'd really like this to be a single day grain to fermenter, so loss of heat that slow might be a bad thing. I was thinking of removing the insulation during this phase of the cereal mash. Thoughts??) If I could let the mash naturally lose temp until 145F while stirring every 30 minutes or so that would be great. 12 gallons of water+21 lbs grain + 30 lbs of stainless steel is a lot of thermal mass. I really have no idea how long it'll take to cool down, even in winter. Maybe 2-3 hours naked.
3 - Second Grain Addition
Once the mash temp hits 145, it's safe for the low temp enzymes and for the barley and wheat to be mashed in. While stirring grain in, ~11ml of SEBamyl GL (@ 0.36ml/lb grain). I chose 145F for this process to start at due to wanting max fermentability and protection for beta amylase. After a jolly good stirring, I was planning to button the mashtun up with the insulation and hold temps there for another hour or two with intermittent stirring. A pH check to make sure it's in the range of 5.2-5.5 would also be performed. Check for the presence of unconverted starches with iodine tincture. If no color change, it's time to remove the mash.
Now here's where I start to lose my mind. Remember I'm a microbiologist and vehemently try to keep contamination out of my ferments....
4 - IM COVERED IN BACTERIA
I'm not cool with just chucking this mash into a bucket and fermenting it. Sure the corn was pasteurized well but the barley and wheat have not been. Mash temp alone is not enough to pasteurize/sanitize a wort enough to prevent the growth of unwanted contamination...Clostridium, enteric bacteria, etc...they smell and taste awful...no way, it's there and ready to sprout wings. I thought of pre-acidifying the mash to ~ph 4.5 and trying to keep the oxygen away from it but my brain really REALLY wants to flash pasteurize the mash. BUT there's the issue of all that husk matter and polyphenol extraction at high temps, so it needs to be lautered (grain removed) somehow. I know, I know it sounds like I'm making beer. Another concern is that I will be fermenting low and slow (turbo yeast sounds awful, I'm avoiding it) and will not have the ability to distill the second the wort had finished fermenting. Lauter/transfer...I was thinking about taking a few fine mesh paint strainer bags, ladling the mash into them then squeezing out the wort goodness into a kettle. This is definitely going to take some time and I can't think of an elegant way to do it....maybe a clean mop bucket with compressor attachment? (** Ideas on the grain/wort separation?)
5 - Flash Pasteurization
So I've got a kettle full of squeezins. Time for an original gravity check. Will most likely be done with a refractometer. I'm hoping for 1.060-1.070. For the pasteurization, I'm just going to bring it to a boil, not a full timed one. I have heat exchanger capability so once this wort boils, I'll run it through the chiller and output into 2 sanitized buckets at 65F. This is what I want my pitching temperature to be. (** Any issues with actually boiling the wort? Other than denaturing the current enzyme load in a pseudo mash-out? I can't think of any but I've never done this before)
6 - Yeast
The yeast I was planning to use is US-05. I have lots of experience with it, it's inexpensive and ferments clean at 68F. I'll be pitching at 2x my normal beer rate of 1 million cells / ml / Degree Plato. I think that will sufficiently suppress a lot of ester formation and it most certainly will not stall at the proposed starting gravity. The dry yeast will be rehydrated per manufacture instructions but I probably won't use GoFerm. I normally have a 2:1 DAP/Fermentaid K mixture on hand for step feeding meads and ciders. I was contemplating adding a few grams of this but I've also read that excess DAP in solution then distillation can yield undesirable taste results. (** Thoughts on adding nutrient to this ferment?). I also have molecular oxygen that will be added post pitch at a rate of 1L per 5 gallons (basically bubbling in via carbstone 1 LPM for 1 min).
My fermentation chamber is capable of holding 10 gallons at 65F. Figuring the internal temperature of the bucket is slightly higher (I don't use a thermowell), I think 65F is a good spot. US-05 will chew through that sugar in 5 days. (** Thoughts on adding any exogenous enzymes at this point? For instance the Sebamyl GL or ground up Beano tablets as I killed off any leftovers during the kettle pasteurization step...just to be extra sure we're extra fermentable).
When terminal gravity is reached (hopefully 0.996! via hydrometer), fine with SuperKleer KC (chitosan/kieselsol). Cold crash and decant off sediment into boiler.
The plan is to run this 3-5 times until I have enough hooch to fill a 5 gal oak barrel for aging.
Ok that's it. Wow that was alot of typing. Please offer your guidance if you can. I'm eager to hear it. Hopefully my next big post on when it's time to distill isn't so lengthy.
For the TL;DR crowd:
1) Making Bourbon
2) No overnight mash, using enzymes
3) Scared of bacteria
4) Doesn't want to ferment on grain
5) Will do extra work if the result is better
- still_stirrin
- Master of Distillation
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Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
Your intended process sounds perfect.
As a longtime beer brewer myself, I lauter all my mashes, even bourbon mashes with 50+% corn grainbills. I do (typically) boil the wort for a short boil, 10-15 minutes maximum. Adding the -GL enzyme after chilling the liquor to pitching temps will promote additional reduction of sugars during the fermentation. Indeed, it does drive the terminal gravity below unity.
I have not used the US-05 yeast, but 65*F sounds cold to me. I typically use bread yeast and it likes 80-85*F. I ferment fast (in air-locked carboys) and so it will produce some esters during the ferment. But, letting the ferment complete and resting to clear does help reduce some of those esters. Distillation helps too. So, I wouldn't be too concerned to keep it "low and slow". Remember, you're making bourbon, not beer.
In summary, your plan is well thought out. And your brewing skills will minimize the risk to the fermentation (which is the fundamental part of making a bourbon). With the opportunity to use the state-of-the-art equipment you have at your disposal, there's no reason you won't soon have a cask of fine bourbon maturing in your rack house.
ss
As a longtime beer brewer myself, I lauter all my mashes, even bourbon mashes with 50+% corn grainbills. I do (typically) boil the wort for a short boil, 10-15 minutes maximum. Adding the -GL enzyme after chilling the liquor to pitching temps will promote additional reduction of sugars during the fermentation. Indeed, it does drive the terminal gravity below unity.
I have not used the US-05 yeast, but 65*F sounds cold to me. I typically use bread yeast and it likes 80-85*F. I ferment fast (in air-locked carboys) and so it will produce some esters during the ferment. But, letting the ferment complete and resting to clear does help reduce some of those esters. Distillation helps too. So, I wouldn't be too concerned to keep it "low and slow". Remember, you're making bourbon, not beer.
In summary, your plan is well thought out. And your brewing skills will minimize the risk to the fermentation (which is the fundamental part of making a bourbon). With the opportunity to use the state-of-the-art equipment you have at your disposal, there's no reason you won't soon have a cask of fine bourbon maturing in your rack house.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
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- Swill Maker
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- Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:12 am
Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
Gotta admit, I usually write long posts, but you've got me beat here! I glazed over after a few paragraphs.
Boiling it is overkill, but it won't hurt anything. You're making whiskey- not beer. If you go to a pro distillery, you'll likely see that they ferment in open containers and find anything from bugs to small critters in there. get a head start on the bacteria by using a clean process and let the yeast do their job! It will denature the enzymes, however. They will normally keep working at fermentation temps. If you boil them, you won't have that benefit. Up to you..
US-05 works well and that's what I usually use. I keep it around 68-70 and it's delicious.
I also live at similar elevation and suspect we're neighbors- water boils at 200. My temps usually drop to about 175 with infusion. Corn will cook at those temps but I've started steaming lately.
Good luck! Post back with more questions if we missed them!
SR
Posting at same time as SS
Boiling it is overkill, but it won't hurt anything. You're making whiskey- not beer. If you go to a pro distillery, you'll likely see that they ferment in open containers and find anything from bugs to small critters in there. get a head start on the bacteria by using a clean process and let the yeast do their job! It will denature the enzymes, however. They will normally keep working at fermentation temps. If you boil them, you won't have that benefit. Up to you..
US-05 works well and that's what I usually use. I keep it around 68-70 and it's delicious.
I also live at similar elevation and suspect we're neighbors- water boils at 200. My temps usually drop to about 175 with infusion. Corn will cook at those temps but I've started steaming lately.
Good luck! Post back with more questions if we missed them!
SR
Posting at same time as SS
HD Google search: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 46&t=50259
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- Swill Maker
- Posts: 464
- Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:12 am
Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
Also, do some searching around.. MichiganCornHusker did some experiments a while back with enzymes and mash protocols. His resulting protocol was that he would heat everything up and add everything to the initial mash. Yes it denatures the malt, but you're using sebamyl anyways. You get everything mostly pasteurized and also get the malt flavors. Then add the sebamyl once it gets to 145 or so. My biggest concern with this is the malts dropping pH too much for the sebstar, so I haven't tried it yet. Probably on my next batch.
SR
SR
HD Google search: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 46&t=50259
- cuginosgrizzo
- Rumrunner
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Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
Hi butterpants, nice writeup, and you plan seems great! I just have a doubt: what's the point of boiling your worth if you plan to add beano tablets or enzymes later at fermenting temps? those are not pasteurized, are they?
- rgreen2002
- Distiller
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- Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:57 pm
- Location: Northeastern USA
Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
Just a few observations/opinions based mostly on my own experiences:
Part 1: Looking at your grain bill and calculating you numbers on brewers friend, at 85% efficiency (completely attainable with high temp liquid enzymes) your OG is spot on even without sparging. I have to use "flaked maize" in the calculations because oddly enough they don't have "Tractor Supply Cracked Corn" as an option...go figure On average 2-2.5#corn/gallon is a good ratio. Add any other grain based on any equation you like and add malt per PPG calculations. I DESTROY my corn.... just barely above what you would call flour.... to increase surface area and aid water penetration. Check your pH as needed. Aim for closer to 6 if you plan on liquid enzymes.
Part 2: I use high temp enzymes so I run a high temp for a while. Have a look at thte first figure here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . Corn gelatinizes from around 140 to 180 so I push it up to 200 to get full gelatinization(I'm near sea level so this is just below boil). I actually warm to 100F and start adding corn. Continue to heat and at 140 I add Sebstar. Sebstar has a temp range from 120F to 190F. This allows it to work while energy is being added to the mash. I run it near 200 for about 90 minutes for maximal gelatinization/conversion using the Sebstar. I actually run 40 gallon batches so when I mash I use about 30 gallons to heat and then after this step I add 10 gallons of cold (55F) water to bring it quickly down to about 140-150... The thermal mass of the next grain will get you into the 140 range. Also...don't forget pH. Sebstar likes pH near 6.
Part 3: If you add cold water you will get to temp quicker but removing insulation is fine too. As a beer guy consider a wort chiller. I add all my secondary grains and stir. Check the pH because Sebamyl likes a much lower pH - around 4. Now because Sebamyl will do the brunt of the conversion work I let it go on its own for quite some time, usually overnight. I wrap the tun up in blankets to retain heat and let it drift to near 100F. I do not stir anymore as I just let the enzymes (liquid AND malt) do their work.
Part 4: Do not worry about bacteria. I know this is hard to hear.... (look up "dunder pit".... your concern for bacteria in all grain will be gone). The high temp of mashing in will eliminate many important unwanted customers that would later survive fermentation, especially since you will only be fermenting for a short time frame and you won't do a second fermentation. As far as removing the grain you can ferment right on the grain if you like and remove the grain later. There are many helpful posts here about it. I myself mash and ferment in a bag which allows me to easily remove 100# of grain from my tun. OK maybe "easily" isn't the word.... but you get the idea. I will occasionally get a lactobacillus infection if my ferment goes slower than anticipated but that just adds to the flavor. If you don't want this then I would warm your fermentation bucket to speed fermentation. If you do not want to ferment on the grain then mash in a bag and remove it immediately... easy peasy as FMH would say.
Part 5: I don't know enough about flash pasteurization and its effects on your product but I can tell you I do not do it... If you do do this please post your results as I would like to know.
Part 6: I have not used US-O5 yeast yet but I have been interested in it. For bourbon I use the White Labs 070 Bourbon Yeast: http://www.homebrewing.org/White-Labs-0 ... AsAW8P8HAQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . I do like it. I also make a starter as well but offhand I cannot remember my cell counts. This yeast likes a hotter temp (near 80F) so I try to keep it warmer. Occasionally I will use an aquarium heater.
Your liquid enzymes will actually keep working (albeit slower) during fermentation as well so .... BONUS!
I don't use DAP in a bourbon run, it has plenty of nutrient already. I do use oyster shells for a buffer to keep the pH from crashing during fermentation
I have never needed a clearing agent for distillation. It is discussed here in a few posts if you want to search it out. I just rack off the primary fermentation into 5 gallon pails and let sit for a few days or however long I have to wait to find time.
Either way...great plan.... well thought out and I think you will have a great time with this hobby. Let us know how it goes.
PS: I am very envious of all your little toys!
Part 1: Looking at your grain bill and calculating you numbers on brewers friend, at 85% efficiency (completely attainable with high temp liquid enzymes) your OG is spot on even without sparging. I have to use "flaked maize" in the calculations because oddly enough they don't have "Tractor Supply Cracked Corn" as an option...go figure On average 2-2.5#corn/gallon is a good ratio. Add any other grain based on any equation you like and add malt per PPG calculations. I DESTROY my corn.... just barely above what you would call flour.... to increase surface area and aid water penetration. Check your pH as needed. Aim for closer to 6 if you plan on liquid enzymes.
Part 2: I use high temp enzymes so I run a high temp for a while. Have a look at thte first figure here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . Corn gelatinizes from around 140 to 180 so I push it up to 200 to get full gelatinization(I'm near sea level so this is just below boil). I actually warm to 100F and start adding corn. Continue to heat and at 140 I add Sebstar. Sebstar has a temp range from 120F to 190F. This allows it to work while energy is being added to the mash. I run it near 200 for about 90 minutes for maximal gelatinization/conversion using the Sebstar. I actually run 40 gallon batches so when I mash I use about 30 gallons to heat and then after this step I add 10 gallons of cold (55F) water to bring it quickly down to about 140-150... The thermal mass of the next grain will get you into the 140 range. Also...don't forget pH. Sebstar likes pH near 6.
Part 3: If you add cold water you will get to temp quicker but removing insulation is fine too. As a beer guy consider a wort chiller. I add all my secondary grains and stir. Check the pH because Sebamyl likes a much lower pH - around 4. Now because Sebamyl will do the brunt of the conversion work I let it go on its own for quite some time, usually overnight. I wrap the tun up in blankets to retain heat and let it drift to near 100F. I do not stir anymore as I just let the enzymes (liquid AND malt) do their work.
Part 4: Do not worry about bacteria. I know this is hard to hear.... (look up "dunder pit".... your concern for bacteria in all grain will be gone). The high temp of mashing in will eliminate many important unwanted customers that would later survive fermentation, especially since you will only be fermenting for a short time frame and you won't do a second fermentation. As far as removing the grain you can ferment right on the grain if you like and remove the grain later. There are many helpful posts here about it. I myself mash and ferment in a bag which allows me to easily remove 100# of grain from my tun. OK maybe "easily" isn't the word.... but you get the idea. I will occasionally get a lactobacillus infection if my ferment goes slower than anticipated but that just adds to the flavor. If you don't want this then I would warm your fermentation bucket to speed fermentation. If you do not want to ferment on the grain then mash in a bag and remove it immediately... easy peasy as FMH would say.
Part 5: I don't know enough about flash pasteurization and its effects on your product but I can tell you I do not do it... If you do do this please post your results as I would like to know.
Part 6: I have not used US-O5 yeast yet but I have been interested in it. For bourbon I use the White Labs 070 Bourbon Yeast: http://www.homebrewing.org/White-Labs-0 ... AsAW8P8HAQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . I do like it. I also make a starter as well but offhand I cannot remember my cell counts. This yeast likes a hotter temp (near 80F) so I try to keep it warmer. Occasionally I will use an aquarium heater.
Your liquid enzymes will actually keep working (albeit slower) during fermentation as well so .... BONUS!
I don't use DAP in a bourbon run, it has plenty of nutrient already. I do use oyster shells for a buffer to keep the pH from crashing during fermentation
I have never needed a clearing agent for distillation. It is discussed here in a few posts if you want to search it out. I just rack off the primary fermentation into 5 gallon pails and let sit for a few days or however long I have to wait to find time.
Either way...great plan.... well thought out and I think you will have a great time with this hobby. Let us know how it goes.
PS: I am very envious of all your little toys!
HD Glossary - Open this
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"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."
A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers - start here
BEST WAY TO GET ANSWERS FROM HOME DISTILLER
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."
Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
Where in Colorado? I live in Colorado Springs and love that we have so many breweries and distilleries here. I'm curious which one you associate with so I can try it.
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Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
DWelsh, I'm in the north end. I'd rather not divulge what brewery I work for or be any more specific about location. I read somewhere that this hobby is frowned upon by the gov't. I'm sure you understand. You are correct about the craft boom tho...it's going to make me fat one of these days. So much to try!
Thank you for the detailed input rgreen2002. You brought up a few things I hadn't considered. I will certainly post a mash after action report. You should see the lab!
Cuginosgrizzo, generally a compressed powder tablet made for human consumption made by large pharma will have solid quality control. I think GSK used to make it but I'm out of touch since I don't work for a pharmaceutical company any longer. While the enzyme in Beano is derived from Aspergillus (a mold), it's just harvested chemically n physically with the critters left behind. Now, I'd be more interested to see the microbiological load on the liquid enzymes I purchased. They appeared to be repackaged from a bulk source and depending on the repackager methods and liquid medium stored in, could be hot. If anyone is interested in seeing it, I can plate out the enzymes I've received on some different media to assay for growth....nothing crazy just presence of wild yeast, brewers yeast, lactic acid producing bacteria, anaerobic vs aerobic growth? But you're right for suspecting anything added to the "cold side" of brewing as we call it.
ShineRunner thanks for the heads up on those experiments, I will read up. Interesting. How do you steam your corn? I've heard of Sake guys having really large steamers for making rice where the rice doesn't actually sit in the water but never seen one up close.
Still_Stirrin thanks for the vote of confidence. We'll see.
Thank you for the detailed input rgreen2002. You brought up a few things I hadn't considered. I will certainly post a mash after action report. You should see the lab!
Cuginosgrizzo, generally a compressed powder tablet made for human consumption made by large pharma will have solid quality control. I think GSK used to make it but I'm out of touch since I don't work for a pharmaceutical company any longer. While the enzyme in Beano is derived from Aspergillus (a mold), it's just harvested chemically n physically with the critters left behind. Now, I'd be more interested to see the microbiological load on the liquid enzymes I purchased. They appeared to be repackaged from a bulk source and depending on the repackager methods and liquid medium stored in, could be hot. If anyone is interested in seeing it, I can plate out the enzymes I've received on some different media to assay for growth....nothing crazy just presence of wild yeast, brewers yeast, lactic acid producing bacteria, anaerobic vs aerobic growth? But you're right for suspecting anything added to the "cold side" of brewing as we call it.
ShineRunner thanks for the heads up on those experiments, I will read up. Interesting. How do you steam your corn? I've heard of Sake guys having really large steamers for making rice where the rice doesn't actually sit in the water but never seen one up close.
Still_Stirrin thanks for the vote of confidence. We'll see.
Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
Looks great. As another long time brewer of beer, it's difficult to let go of some of the protocols we're so sure of, until you run a few batches, see the realities of cause and effect, and slowly get more comfortable with the presence of alternatives.
US-05 is always a great choice for grains for all the same reasons you might think. Bakers yeast ends surprisingly similar if you ferment a bit warmer. Consider a WLP-007 or S-04 option for an all malt product. Adds a little complexity.
US-05 is always a great choice for grains for all the same reasons you might think. Bakers yeast ends surprisingly similar if you ferment a bit warmer. Consider a WLP-007 or S-04 option for an all malt product. Adds a little complexity.
Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
I'm currently fermenting a batch of blonde ale using US-05. Temp is holding at 65 degrees and it has a full high krausen. Seems to love that temperature. Makes a fine ale, but I have no clue what it would do to a corn mash. It doesn't drop out the way S-04 does so I'm using Irish moss, but again, that doesn't apply to you.
Lawfish
Homebrewer turned distiller
Homebrewer turned distiller
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- Swill Maker
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Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
Just wanted to check back in with this process. It works pretty darn well considering I'm taking some serious liberties with mash times. I've got some pictures too....
My initial strike water temp of 200F in a keggle then adding 20 lbs of milled corn is spot on. It drops to 180F and I toss in some enzymes. I let it gelatnize/mash for exactly 2 hours, uncovered with no insulation. At the end of 2 hours it's right at 145F. I add 10 lbs of flavor grains and we're right at 140F. Second set of enzymes go in and she gets buttoned up with insulation. 2 more hours and the mash is complete. I've usually lost 2 or 3 degrees F.
Separating the grains from liquid goodness is much easier than I expected. Get yourself some paint strainer bags and the cleanest and most rugged mop bucket ringer you can find. This thing is a dream. 20 minutes to drain 30 lbs of grain.
In this picture I'm basically ladling from the mash tun to the mop bucket then dumping into a kettle for pasteurization.
Boiling in the kettle and chilling with a heat exchanger has been a no brainer, very easy and it feels like home to me. No kettle finings added. The nice thing about a clean ferment is I can let it go another week if I want with no issues and the real winner is reusing a yeast cake. Every other batch I'll do new yeast but I can halve the cost (~15$ per 10 gallons of wash if paying retail for US-05) by repitching. No off flavors detected yet in 30 gallons made so far.
Right now I'm using 20 lbs whole feed corn, milled as small as I can get it. 8 lbs US white wheat and 2 lbs US two-row. 11 gallons of RO water+ 1 gallon backset+ 2 tbs gypsum (I feel like I can get more grain into this ratio but the keggle is getting full). I ferment at 65F for 2 days then slowly bump it up to 72F by the end of a week. All the mashes have been at 1.000 or lower in 7 days and cold crashed before distilling, no fining agents used. SEBamyl GL has been added 2ml to each 5gal fermenter. 1L of pure Oxygen was added at the start of fermentation. When repitching on a cake, yeast washing was not performed.
Issues:
Only issue so far is that with the abbreviated timetable, I'm only getting ~1.058 original gravity. Considering the time savings, I'm cool with it. I think if I did this on a larger scale, I'd go with flaked maize and eat the cost but pickup 2 hours of time. Basically I think I'll need to do an extra mash to make up for the losses filling my barrel.
My initial strike water temp of 200F in a keggle then adding 20 lbs of milled corn is spot on. It drops to 180F and I toss in some enzymes. I let it gelatnize/mash for exactly 2 hours, uncovered with no insulation. At the end of 2 hours it's right at 145F. I add 10 lbs of flavor grains and we're right at 140F. Second set of enzymes go in and she gets buttoned up with insulation. 2 more hours and the mash is complete. I've usually lost 2 or 3 degrees F.
Separating the grains from liquid goodness is much easier than I expected. Get yourself some paint strainer bags and the cleanest and most rugged mop bucket ringer you can find. This thing is a dream. 20 minutes to drain 30 lbs of grain.
In this picture I'm basically ladling from the mash tun to the mop bucket then dumping into a kettle for pasteurization.
Boiling in the kettle and chilling with a heat exchanger has been a no brainer, very easy and it feels like home to me. No kettle finings added. The nice thing about a clean ferment is I can let it go another week if I want with no issues and the real winner is reusing a yeast cake. Every other batch I'll do new yeast but I can halve the cost (~15$ per 10 gallons of wash if paying retail for US-05) by repitching. No off flavors detected yet in 30 gallons made so far.
Right now I'm using 20 lbs whole feed corn, milled as small as I can get it. 8 lbs US white wheat and 2 lbs US two-row. 11 gallons of RO water+ 1 gallon backset+ 2 tbs gypsum (I feel like I can get more grain into this ratio but the keggle is getting full). I ferment at 65F for 2 days then slowly bump it up to 72F by the end of a week. All the mashes have been at 1.000 or lower in 7 days and cold crashed before distilling, no fining agents used. SEBamyl GL has been added 2ml to each 5gal fermenter. 1L of pure Oxygen was added at the start of fermentation. When repitching on a cake, yeast washing was not performed.
Issues:
Only issue so far is that with the abbreviated timetable, I'm only getting ~1.058 original gravity. Considering the time savings, I'm cool with it. I think if I did this on a larger scale, I'd go with flaked maize and eat the cost but pickup 2 hours of time. Basically I think I'll need to do an extra mash to make up for the losses filling my barrel.
Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
Yeah, a finer grind of the corn or cornmeal makes a big difference. Also, I've found with enzymes just being more patient and letting each rest go longer (overnight for hi temp and 4+ hours for the lower temp one) results in a surprisingly higher specific gravity. Corn just doesn't behave the same way as barley, in so many ways.
Great pictures, thanks for the update!
Great pictures, thanks for the update!
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Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
Nice thread and good update! I think your mash is a little light on malted barley. I would go 15% and take 5% less corn. This would be both to add a little more complex flavour and to perhaps add some extra enzymes for conversion.
I would add some of the grain to the ferment if I were you. You have more nutrients and your wash will ferment faster.
I would add some of the grain to the ferment if I were you. You have more nutrients and your wash will ferment faster.
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15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
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Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
I got the mashbill percentages from something I'm trying to emulate (Larceny - Heaven Hill). Sticking with it, till the 5gal bbl is full. I'm petrified of having grain in my mash...even boiling it.
Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
This lists barley at 12% for larceny:
http://modernthirst.com/home/bourbon-wh ... ash-bills/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://modernthirst.com/home/bourbon-wh ... ash-bills/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: My workflow and QUESTIONS!
I found it from some of this guys writings:
http://www.whiskeyprof.com/theres-only- ... ipes-yall/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Here's another site with even lower barley numbers (pretty close tho):
http://drinkwire.liquor.com/post/mash-bills" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I guess we'll all agree to disagree.
http://www.whiskeyprof.com/theres-only- ... ipes-yall/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Here's another site with even lower barley numbers (pretty close tho):
http://drinkwire.liquor.com/post/mash-bills" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I guess we'll all agree to disagree.