Whiskey in a fractionating column
Moderator: Site Moderator
Whiskey in a fractionating column
Maybe this has been done to death, but I can't find a thread on it.
I have regularly seen side comments on the pages to the tune of "you can't make good whiskey in a column". As an owner of a column I've only used it for clean spirit and chemistry experiments. In my pot still whiskey I tend to leave a lot of heads on the basis that if you taste a lot of good bourbons (particularly, more so than scotch) you can get strong notes of ethyl acetate and some acetone like flavours. They are balanced by the esters etc and so it just works. Love them.
Now thats fine, but I've noticed that when giving a shot of home made to some non-HD friends, particularly something young, the nose wrinkles very quickly, and there are a a lot of complaints. In a 3yo then this is less pronounced, but there is only so much 3yo in the shed.
So I wondered what a whiskey would be like with no heads. So I made a mash 3/6 peated, 2/6 straight barley, 1/6 wheat, stripped (steam), put it in the 2m scrubbie packed column system and ran full reflux till it stabilised and pulled out 100ml or so of heads. Usual stinky shite. Then opened the needle up to no reflux and ran the rest of the run as per a pot still. Put it on oak with a bit of sherry.
It is now about 3mo old. And without the heads flavours the whiskey taste and peat comes through very clearly. I think in normal young headsy whisky the heads mask the (new) esters. My plan is to always do this for whiskeys made to drink young, and use pot still only for whiskeys made to drink old. And one friend who has had a chance to try it did not wrinkle his nose at all.
So you can make very good whiskey in a fractionating column.
I have regularly seen side comments on the pages to the tune of "you can't make good whiskey in a column". As an owner of a column I've only used it for clean spirit and chemistry experiments. In my pot still whiskey I tend to leave a lot of heads on the basis that if you taste a lot of good bourbons (particularly, more so than scotch) you can get strong notes of ethyl acetate and some acetone like flavours. They are balanced by the esters etc and so it just works. Love them.
Now thats fine, but I've noticed that when giving a shot of home made to some non-HD friends, particularly something young, the nose wrinkles very quickly, and there are a a lot of complaints. In a 3yo then this is less pronounced, but there is only so much 3yo in the shed.
So I wondered what a whiskey would be like with no heads. So I made a mash 3/6 peated, 2/6 straight barley, 1/6 wheat, stripped (steam), put it in the 2m scrubbie packed column system and ran full reflux till it stabilised and pulled out 100ml or so of heads. Usual stinky shite. Then opened the needle up to no reflux and ran the rest of the run as per a pot still. Put it on oak with a bit of sherry.
It is now about 3mo old. And without the heads flavours the whiskey taste and peat comes through very clearly. I think in normal young headsy whisky the heads mask the (new) esters. My plan is to always do this for whiskeys made to drink young, and use pot still only for whiskeys made to drink old. And one friend who has had a chance to try it did not wrinkle his nose at all.
So you can make very good whiskey in a fractionating column.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
Search for Odin's Pure Whisky Thread. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=39091
It describes how to make a whisky spirit with flavor carryover in the 90%+ range.
It describes how to make a whisky spirit with flavor carryover in the 90%+ range.
"Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks" - God (Isaiah 5:22)
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.
- der wo
- Master of Distillation
- Posts: 3817
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:40 am
- Location: Rote Flora, Hamburg
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
I also use my reflux still for whisky.
I use a very short column, 50cm. This low capacity has the effect, that after the concentrated foreshots when I open the LM-valve I am early in true potstill mode.
When the abv drops to whatever (I decide by tasting during the run), I reflux again and hold this abv. But short after starting this I collect small jars and decide later if it's middle cut or not.
The amount of fores cut depends on the angels share IMO. If I plan to loose much to the angels, a minimal fores cut suffice. A normal cut would cause the final result being mellow but boring. For example per liter aging strength I would not toss out more than 10ml concentrated fores, if I will loose 20% of the whisky.
I use a very short column, 50cm. This low capacity has the effect, that after the concentrated foreshots when I open the LM-valve I am early in true potstill mode.
When the abv drops to whatever (I decide by tasting during the run), I reflux again and hold this abv. But short after starting this I collect small jars and decide later if it's middle cut or not.
The amount of fores cut depends on the angels share IMO. If I plan to loose much to the angels, a minimal fores cut suffice. A normal cut would cause the final result being mellow but boring. For example per liter aging strength I would not toss out more than 10ml concentrated fores, if I will loose 20% of the whisky.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
I've made many gallons of Whiskey with my 2" Boka. I recently upgraded to 3" and suspect the tradition will continue.
I normally compress the heads and take them off once things clean up then transition to pot mode.
B
I normally compress the heads and take them off once things clean up then transition to pot mode.
B
-
- retired
- Posts: 3452
- Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:33 am
- Location: brigadoon
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
I think you can make a nice white whiskey on a fractional still and you can do a decent aged product as well. However for a truly exceptional aged product I'll use a simple pot still and my knowledge.
Ideas are like rabbits. You get a couple and learn how to handle them, and pretty soon you have a dozen. John Steinbeck
-
- Distiller
- Posts: 1131
- Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:46 am
- Location: lost in the bush with the rest of the kiwis
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
Done it plenty of times thanks to Odins advice
Unfortunatly, my friends don't know what good stuff is, so I always have to add a little heads as they think a good whiskey has a "bite" to it
chuck a vanilla bean, cinnamin stick and wood into a jar, let it age a month, taste it and keep going if you want, simple and easy
Unfortunatly, my friends don't know what good stuff is, so I always have to add a little heads as they think a good whiskey has a "bite" to it
chuck a vanilla bean, cinnamin stick and wood into a jar, let it age a month, taste it and keep going if you want, simple and easy
- T-Pee
- Master of Distillation
- Posts: 4355
- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:20 pm
- Location: The wilds of rural California
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
Two words: "Cuts" and "blending".
tp
tp
Caution: Steep learning curve ahead!
Handy Links:
The Rules We Live By
GA Flatwoods sez
Cranky's Spoon Feeding For The New Folk
My "Still Tutorial" CM w/PP mods
Handy Links:
The Rules We Live By
GA Flatwoods sez
Cranky's Spoon Feeding For The New Folk
My "Still Tutorial" CM w/PP mods
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
bitter wrote:I've made many gallons of Whiskey with my 2" Boka. I recently upgraded to 3" and suspect the tradition will continue.
I normally compress the heads and take them off once things clean up then transition to pot mode.
B
What length of column / packing were you using on the 2" ?
and when you say transition you mean you just keep opening the off take up more and more?
. . . thats not snark its newb talking haha
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
Thanks for the ideas. Time to do some reading, but not right now. The comment that itched with me was the common one that a fractionating still will "take all the flavour out", whereas in the experiment it created access to the flavour.
Smiley, in "Making Pure Corn Whiskey" also uses a column. My memory of his recipe is that he still takes his whiskey between 80% and about 30% ABV to keep in line with US definition. That would create a very concentrated whiskey in low quantities. He talks about the problems of making cuts which with a compressed run like that would be tough. A 2m column will pull azeotrope out of last nights's whiskey breath, so I'd get about 200ml between 80% and 30%, and it would be too intense to be drinkable. One can always open up the needle valve for the whole run but for old whiskeys I also like full-on flavour so keep the heads, so will continue to use the pot.
I'm also aging the heads from this run on their own. One could, rather than blending then aging, age then blend. i.e. distill into 750ml bottles, oak, age then check out the different fractions a few years down the track. So many options, so little time.
Smiley, in "Making Pure Corn Whiskey" also uses a column. My memory of his recipe is that he still takes his whiskey between 80% and about 30% ABV to keep in line with US definition. That would create a very concentrated whiskey in low quantities. He talks about the problems of making cuts which with a compressed run like that would be tough. A 2m column will pull azeotrope out of last nights's whiskey breath, so I'd get about 200ml between 80% and 30%, and it would be too intense to be drinkable. One can always open up the needle valve for the whole run but for old whiskeys I also like full-on flavour so keep the heads, so will continue to use the pot.
I'm also aging the heads from this run on their own. One could, rather than blending then aging, age then blend. i.e. distill into 750ml bottles, oak, age then check out the different fractions a few years down the track. So many options, so little time.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
The 2" column had about 48" of copper blocker packing in the column.Jes2xu wrote:
What length of column / packing were you using on the 2" ?
and when you say transition you mean you just keep opening the off take up more and more?
. . . thats not snark its newb talking haha
As you are running I take off the foreshot and early heads at 95-96% nice and slow... about 5 drops per second (Yes this can take some time for a larger run nit its worth it)
The transition I am talking about is were thinks smell clean.. (sometimes take couple drops and dilute with couple drops of water also to taste, but never swallow or get drunk when running.) Then when I know most the heads are done (Just smelling head can give me a big nasty throbbing headache, so drinking them is out of the question), I open the needle valve fully open to run in pot mode... about a jar later your running 100% pot mode and the packing in the column is not doing much... You control your flow with heat input just like a potstill (boka in potstill mode). When you make your cuts there will still be jars of feints to recycle, but the number will be decrease due to the Boka compressing the heads. I toss 250ml of 96% per 5g of wash as foreshot reguarless first thing..
You can ask pythonshine and Yakattack about the UJSSM I took for out fishing trip... They both seams partial to it (I was on oak the T-pee way for 10 months) That reminds me have about 3g of UJSSM (On oak was 62.5 to 65%) that might need bottling.. No doing sugar heads any more.. unless for neutral. I have transitioned to all grain for my whiskey but still really liek the UJSSM with about 10% rye flakes when it gets 4-5 generations in. I'm not as fond of the Sweet Feed I made this summer but time will tell, needs a bunch more time on oak (Using lighter oaking this time and real staves from a bourbon barrel (Thanks Yak) so will take more time about 2 years should be perfect I think).
B
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
bitter wrote:The 2" column had about 48" of copper blocker packing in the column.Jes2xu wrote:
What length of column / packing were you using on the 2" ?
and when you say transition you mean you just keep opening the off take up more and more?
. . . thats not snark its newb talking haha
As you are running I take off the foreshot and early heads at 95-96% nice and slow... about 5 drops per second (Yes this can take some time for a larger run nit its worth it)
The transition I am talking about is were thinks smell clean.. (sometimes take couple drops and dilute with couple drops of water also to taste, but never swallow or get drunk when running.) Then when I know most the heads are done (Just smelling head can give me a big nasty throbbing headache, so drinking them is out of the question), I open the needle valve fully open to run in pot mode... about a jar later your running 100% pot mode and the packing in the column is not doing much... You control your flow with heat input just like a potstill (boka in potstill mode). When you make your cuts there will still be jars of feints to recycle, but the number will be decrease due to the Boka compressing the heads. I toss 250ml of 96% per 5g of wash as foreshot reguarless first thing..
You can ask pythonshine and Yakattack about the UJSSM I took for out fishing trip... They both seams partial to it (I was on oak the T-pee way for 10 months) That reminds me have about 3g of UJSSM (On oak was 62.5 to 65%) that might need bottling.. No doing sugar heads any more.. unless for neutral. I have transitioned to all grain for my whiskey but still really liek the UJSSM with about 10% rye flakes when it gets 4-5 generations in. I'm not as fond of the Sweet Feed I made this summer but time will tell, needs a bunch more time on oak (Using lighter oaking this time and real staves from a bourbon barrel (Thanks Yak) so will take more time about 2 years should be perfect I think).
B
Dude, thank you!
I have been thinking about how exactly to go about this. But Im still a little way off actually being able to do it so figgered I would just save my questions untill then. Pretty sure that just answered them all though!
. . . . untill I get around to doing it im sure haha.
Thanks man!
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
I like two plates for whisky, with a slow fores and heads collection. After that the dephlegmator gets very little water and it's practically a pot still.
I would also add in my opinion whisky does well with more tails than heads. I feel they age out better a provide the more complex notes you find in good spirits. Grain flavour and smoke, if you're doing a peated style, in particular.
Heads stay heads.
I would also add in my opinion whisky does well with more tails than heads. I feel they age out better a provide the more complex notes you find in good spirits. Grain flavour and smoke, if you're doing a peated style, in particular.
Heads stay heads.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
- der wo
- Master of Distillation
- Posts: 3817
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:40 am
- Location: Rote Flora, Hamburg
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
Sticks/chips or barrel? In a closed environment (mason jars with sticks for example) heads stay heads, yes. But not in a barrel or mason jar with pinholes and coffee filters.res wrote:I would also add in my opinion whisky does well with more tails than heads. I feel they age out better a provide the more complex notes you find in good spirits. Grain flavour and smoke, if you're doing a peated style, in particular.
Heads stay heads.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
der wo wrote:Sticks/chips or barrel? In a closed environment (mason jars with sticks for example) heads stay heads, yes. But not in a barrel or mason jar with pinholes and coffee filters.res wrote:I would also add in my opinion whisky does well with more tails than heads. I feel they age out better a provide the more complex notes you find in good spirits. Grain flavour and smoke, if you're doing a peated style, in particular.
Heads stay heads.
Fair point, being the more volatile components they do tend to be the first things the angels drink. But do they leave anything useful behind? I'm not convinced they do
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
- der wo
- Master of Distillation
- Posts: 3817
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:40 am
- Location: Rote Flora, Hamburg
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
Nothing one can calculate or prove. It's something you try out, and either you are happy with it or not.res wrote:But do they leave anything useful behind? I'm not convinced they do
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
I just wanted to sub in, I'm making some cob on two plates today or tomorrow, I have added some extra copper as one of my strippers seems to have some heavy sulpher compounds.
I think whiskey is all in the cuts, and (mostly) the ferments,,,here i am trying to "fix" a poor ferment...
I always cut the heads, you can get after it and have a sip sooner than three years. Otherwise it's basically commercial swill and easier to buy a crock than to make one. Tails are a real art I find you have to catch and discard (rerun) the first tails fraction, it's the nasty one. the second or third tails fraction is where i find the complexity i like, sometimes a little spinkle of some late tails too.
i'm interested to see what happens with the two plate setup; i've not been having a lot of luck with the stainless steel and have been running it basically as a pot still. Hopefully a good result this time!
I think whiskey is all in the cuts, and (mostly) the ferments,,,here i am trying to "fix" a poor ferment...
I always cut the heads, you can get after it and have a sip sooner than three years. Otherwise it's basically commercial swill and easier to buy a crock than to make one. Tails are a real art I find you have to catch and discard (rerun) the first tails fraction, it's the nasty one. the second or third tails fraction is where i find the complexity i like, sometimes a little spinkle of some late tails too.
i'm interested to see what happens with the two plate setup; i've not been having a lot of luck with the stainless steel and have been running it basically as a pot still. Hopefully a good result this time!
I finally quit drinking for good.
now i drink for evil.
now i drink for evil.
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
Hi de wo
According to Davis in "How to Make Whiskey" the phenols in peat react with ethyl acetate. And I cannot remember drinking a Scotch that had ethyl acetate or acetone notes, though that could be their cuts regime. Davis claims even the scotches that are not obviously peaty (my e.g. The Glenlivit) have peat. Davis, of course, could be wrong and its angels, too.In a closed environment (mason jars with sticks for example) heads stay heads, yes
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
- der wo
- Master of Distillation
- Posts: 3817
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:40 am
- Location: Rote Flora, Hamburg
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
Who knows what in detail all may happen during 10 or more years in a barrel.
My comment was more in the context of homedistillers, about trying to get successfully something like an one year aging.
Yes, the Scotts remove foreshots, the Americans not. Never compared a Scotch and US newmake unfortunetely. The Scotch should have less heads. I also never had a glue smelling Scotch.
Yes, many of the "unpeated" Scotchs have around 5ppm. Perhaps it plays a role in long time aging.
At least the character of the peat changes much with the years. I don't think, this is interaction with the wood or evaporation. Perhaps oxidation, perhaps way more complicated. I found it very interesting, when I drank for the first time a very young peated malt whisky (Smokehead), that the character of the peat is similar to my homemade peated malt whisky, which is also young.
My comment was more in the context of homedistillers, about trying to get successfully something like an one year aging.
Yes, the Scotts remove foreshots, the Americans not. Never compared a Scotch and US newmake unfortunetely. The Scotch should have less heads. I also never had a glue smelling Scotch.
Yes, many of the "unpeated" Scotchs have around 5ppm. Perhaps it plays a role in long time aging.
At least the character of the peat changes much with the years. I don't think, this is interaction with the wood or evaporation. Perhaps oxidation, perhaps way more complicated. I found it very interesting, when I drank for the first time a very young peated malt whisky (Smokehead), that the character of the peat is similar to my homemade peated malt whisky, which is also young.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
I'm planning to tour Scotland this year, and am hoping the distilleries will provide tasting of young spirits for old farts. Any interesting stuff will be duly reported. Will have to buy some Smokehead. There is a 3 yr Bourbon sold that is also quite comparable to home stuff.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
-
- Novice
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:22 am
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
Technically that's brown vodka you're making. It is easily consumed. When doing a whisky you can't ( I might be wrong ) just mix high proof top with low proof bottom products. At least I have not found a thread that explains how. Neither have I found any information on this site that can tell if reflux itself enhances the notes at all. I would suggest you go for a lower proof pot as before and try to see if tou can redistill tails and heads or both in contact with more copper and perhaps manually incorporate hearts and tails/heads.
Re: Whiskey in a fractionating column
Hmmm. My understanding, such that it is, is that no chemistry happens in a still, or very little (maybe some copper reactions). A still is (if you will pardon my analogy) is like a set of sieves. A pot still is like a set of sieves with only a small number in the set, and a column is like one with a lot of sieves in the set. So what matters is how you blend it, not how many grades you create before you do.
As evidence, I give you bourbons, many of which are made in fractionating stills. My current habit is to use a short Nixon-Stone column with copper packing, and fractionate right at the start to pick off the nail polish, then open the valve wide and treat it like a pot still.
Abelour feed all their heads back into the next run and only dump them once a year, which makes me think there might be an ethyl acetate / copper reaction. Its not beyond the realm of possibility, as the ethyl acetate must go somewhere, and it will make acetic acid with water, and copper acetate is soluble in water.
Not that I'm sure of any of this, other than that I like bourbons.
As evidence, I give you bourbons, many of which are made in fractionating stills. My current habit is to use a short Nixon-Stone column with copper packing, and fractionate right at the start to pick off the nail polish, then open the valve wide and treat it like a pot still.
Abelour feed all their heads back into the next run and only dump them once a year, which makes me think there might be an ethyl acetate / copper reaction. Its not beyond the realm of possibility, as the ethyl acetate must go somewhere, and it will make acetic acid with water, and copper acetate is soluble in water.
Not that I'm sure of any of this, other than that I like bourbons.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.