ultrasonic aging experiment

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ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby DBCFlash » Wed May 17, 2017 6:07 am

I recently built a 100 watt ultrasonic aging device (UAD) to determine if ultrasonic aging of spirits is a real thing or just a gimmick. I've been asked by a number of respected members of this board (and a couple of scoundrels) to document these experiments and post my results. I'm normally a much more "seat of my pants" kind'a guy, but for the sake of this procedure I'll be writing everything down and presenting it here...You're welcome.

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This is the UAD I built. It's simply two half gallon Bain Marie pots, one cut, flipped and nested to allow room for the transducer. I haven't even put the control board in a box yet.

The parameters I've been asked to measure are:
Starting weight- 4 pounds 10 1/2 oz
Starting temperature - 65 Degrees F
Measured volume - Just a hair under the 500 ml line
ABV - 99 Proof

I am running the UAD for a 40 minute session. I'll post the results and my subjective evaluation of the resulting changes in flavor and texture.

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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby Pikey » Wed May 17, 2017 6:51 am

DBCFlash wrote:
....... (and a couple of scoundrels) .......


Oi - watchit ! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby DBCFlash » Wed May 17, 2017 7:15 am

The results are in!

Finished weight - 4 pounds 10 1/4 oz - lost 1/4 oz by weight
Finished temperature - 83 Degrees F - gained 18 Degrees.
Measured volume - Just a hair under 500 ml - The Ball jars aren't graduated very fine. The difference was tiny.
ABV - 99 Proof - I brought the temperature back down to 65 Degrees before I measured that.

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My subjective evaluation of taste and texture:
The original young UJSSM had been oaked with medium toasted, lightly charred white oak blocks for about a month.

Before UAD:
Oaky nose with slight alcohol smell. Mild vanilla flavor early with a slight deep caramel finish late. Early bite with lite burn from halfway through to finish. Very light corn flavor throughout.
Mouthfeel was dry, slightly harsh.

After UAD:

Much less oaky nose with more corn scents. Very little alcohol smell. Vanilla taste started much earlier and slightly milder. Caramel started much earlier and was less deep. Much less early bite and burn was milder and more evenly spread through the taste. More corn taste from beginning to end. Mouthfeel was slightly smoother, felt a little more coated throughout my mouth.

My determination: This technique certainly changed the nature of this UJSSM for the better. The changes were subtle, and I still think there is room for improvement through time.

I'll pull out some Birdwatchers neutral next and see what this UAD does for that.

If anyone has any suggestions or ideas for further testing just let me know. I don't have much of a lab, but I can measure the basics.
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby DBCFlash » Wed May 17, 2017 7:17 am

Pikey wrote:
DBCFlash wrote:
....... (and a couple of scoundrels) .......


Oi - watchit ! :lol: :lol: :lol:


I didn't want to leave anyone out :wink:
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby der wo » Wed May 17, 2017 9:03 am

500ml 99pr weigh 466g. It lost 1/4 ounce (7g). So it lost 1.5% product. On the one hand the loss is not much compared to the angels share of a few years in a barrel, on the other hand for 40min it is much evaporation. The ultrasonic treatment causes evaporation. And this has of course an effect on taste. But when I read what you write about taste, perhaps it is more than evaporation?
DBCFlash wrote:... more corn scents ... Vanilla taste started much earlier ... Caramel started much earlier and was less deep ... More corn taste from beginning to end ...
At least those quotes indicate that it is more than evaporation. Do you think this "more" of corn scent and vanilla is because there is something less, what before covered it up? Or do you think it is really something more?
Sorry for my bad English!
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby der wo » Wed May 17, 2017 9:25 am

DBCFlash wrote:If anyone has any suggestions or ideas for further testing just let me know. I don't have much of a lab, but I can measure the basics.

Could you put a lid on the bain marie and seal it? And either compare with an untreated sample or with one with open bain marie? Or both?
Then we could see perhaps better, if the effect is evaporation mainly or not (Because for evaporation only you wouldn't need such a construction. Warm temp and a lid with a pinhole and coffee paper would be easier).
Sorry for my bad English!
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby ShineonCrazyDiamond » Wed May 17, 2017 10:32 am

To be fair, the tasting session should be blind. Why wouldn't you see a change as you were expecting and hoping for with that machine you put effort into building :ebiggrin:
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby DBCFlash » Wed May 17, 2017 11:39 am

ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote:To be fair, the tasting session should be blind. Why wouldn't you see a change as you were expecting and hoping for with that machine you put effort into building :ebiggrin:

I honestly didn't expect to see any real change, and what I did perceive was subtle, yet unmistakable.
My losses are a little hard to measure as there would be a few drips here and there transferring the spirits to and from the hygrometer tube, so it's possible there was even less lost to the angels.
I have no interest in pushing this idea as it wasn't mine to begin with. Nothing to gain or lose since I only produce spirits for myself and my family. I've read some glowing claims about this type of "super secret" treatment from people selling the product and I just wanted to see if they were full of shit or if it actually did something. I was a huge skeptic before I attempted this.

I won't try to speculate if these changes are akin to actual aging, but I will say the finished product is certainly better than what I started with. I have learned enough to label ultrasonic treatment of spirits a good idea.

I will use this UAD to finish whatever I produce from here on out. I will continue to set aside a dram of untreated each time to make comparisons. I don't really know anyone with enough of an educated palate to goat rope into a blind taste test, but perhaps it would be better to just get an average Joe's opinion anyway.

I do appreciate the skepticism. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That's why I went to the trouble to build this thing.

All in I have probably got less than $40 in this device. Not a huge investment.
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby DBCFlash » Wed May 17, 2017 11:56 am

der wo wrote:
DBCFlash wrote:... more corn scents ... Vanilla taste started much earlier ... Caramel started much earlier and was less deep ... More corn taste from beginning to end ...
At least those quotes indicate that it is more than evaporation. Do you think this "more" of corn scent and vanilla is because there is something less, what before covered it up? Or do you think it is really something more?


I'm not great at describing tastes, but I would compare the change to be like a pot of chili. First day the flavors are distinct and separate, you can "find" the flavor of each ingredient as you eat a bite. The next day the flavors have merged and tempered into something more consistent. Next day chili is better.

I suppose I could just line up a few tasting glasses and fill one with raw whiskey, fill one with whiskey that's been heated to cause evaporation, and fill a third with UAD treated whiskey and try a blind taste test. Perhaps a fourth with "nuclear" whiskey that's taken a spin through the microwave. I suspect the cavitation of the microscopic bubbles would likely occur in a microwave oven similar to those in the UAD. I'll need a good amount of identical spirits to do all that and to date my production has been all over the place. Honey Bear Bourbon, Birdwatchers, straight rye and six generations of UJSSM. I don't really have a whole lot of any one thing in particular. Reckon I need to work on that, Eh?
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby DBCFlash » Wed May 17, 2017 12:03 pm

der wo wrote:500ml 99pr weigh 466g. It lost 1/4 ounce (7g). So it lost 1.5% product. On the one hand the loss is not much compared to the angels share of a few years in a barrel, on the other hand for 40min it is much evaporation.


I just realized my first mistake! That isn't the 500 ml line, it's the 1500 ml line. That puts the losses at .5%.

I told you I wasn't very good with scientific method.
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby SaltyStaves » Wed May 17, 2017 12:29 pm

Instead of just treating it as rectification machine, why not use it with oak and white dog and skip that passive month of jar aging altogether?

I use heat under reflux for my own time machine, but I'm interested in ultrasonic. It sounds like it could potentially do in an hour, what I currently can do in 6 days.
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby DBCFlash » Wed May 17, 2017 12:45 pm

SaltyStaves wrote:Instead of just treating it as rectification machine, why not use it with oak and white dog and skip that passive month of jar aging altogether?

I use heat under reflux for my own time machine, but I'm interested in ultrasonic. It sounds like it could potentially do in an hour, what I currently can do in 6 days.


I have serious doubts that the ultrasonic waves would encourage any additional penetration into the oak, and I have concerns that the presence of the oak block might interfere with the wave propagation. It's porous nature would likely just absorb the energy. My device is actually pretty fragile and the cheapo board I used is known to burn out easily. rapid heating and cooling cycles are a better way to get a spirit oaked quickly, but simply loading a jar with two or three charred, toasted blocks seems to get the oaking done pretty nicely in just a few weeks.

Nuclear aging in the microwave is purported to do both aging and oaking simultaneously, but the oaking is still reliant on heating and cooling cycles. There are nervous folks that really shy away from putting whiskey in the microwave, and I suppose they have a point. Heating spirits that quickly could create a lot of alcohol vapor if allowed to get to excessively high temperatures, but I reckon it's no more dangerous than running a still.
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby dieselduo » Wed May 17, 2017 3:36 pm

I do ultrasonic aging and put charred or toasted oak in at the beginning. After about 30 min there is a noticeable change in color. The machine I have also has a heating element where you can set your temp
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby DBCFlash » Wed May 17, 2017 4:19 pm

dieselduo wrote:I do ultrasonic aging and put charred or toasted oak in at the beginning. After about 30 min there is a noticeable change in color. The machine I have also has a heating element where you can set your temp

Glad to see I'm not the only one trying this. Do you see a significant difference in yours?
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby skow69 » Wed May 17, 2017 9:44 pm

I haven't tried ultrasonic, but I did experiment with vibration. Not your standard battery powered dildo, mind you. This was a medical grade 120 volt massager. I used a half gallon mason jar with the lid on so there was no loss, and suspended it so it would propagate standing waves on the surface such as the OP describes. No heat was applied. I got results similar to this, and I was very pleased. Unfortunately, the effects weren't permanent. They dissipated over a few days and the spirit returned to its original condition.

This experiment was totally unscientific, no control sample, no blind tasting. The results are purely anecdotal. But the perceived changes were strong enough that I abandoned the effort after two trials.

Just something to watch out for.
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby der wo » Wed May 17, 2017 11:45 pm

skow69 wrote:I haven't tried ultrasonic, but I did experiment with vibration. Not your standard battery powered dildo, mind you. This was a medical grade 120 volt massager ... I got results similar to this, and I was very pleased. Unfortunately, the effects weren't permanent. They dissipated over a few days and the spirit returned to its original condition.

For me this sounds very logically. The effect of a dildo dissipates over a few days and the woman returns to her original condition too.
Sorry for my bad English!
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby NZChris » Wed May 17, 2017 11:54 pm

I reckon anything that moves the stagnant layer away from the oak will speed up extraction and I'm sure ultrasonic does that, but so will the rocking of the boat, sitting the jar on a speaker, convection currents from heating elements under the vessel, giving the jug a shake when you leave for work and again when you get home etc., so I'm following your thread with interest, but what I want to learn is, and I'm sure you do too, is ultrasonic doing something beyond just extracting flavors from the wood?

I'm buggered if I know how to work that one out :D
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby vqstatesman » Thu May 18, 2017 12:56 am

Hi DBC,

It's great to hear of other people experimenting with US. Many thanks for your detailed findings.

A couple of months ago I purchased a 6 litre US bath. I have run several of my all grain bourbon recipes through it, gave some rum a US treatment too.

My findings regarding the change in flavour very similar to yours. I use my parter as a blind test and ask him to describe the flavour change and pick his favourite. In a blind test he chooses the US treated sample every time.

I'm certainly a believer in US treatment.
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby DBCFlash » Thu May 18, 2017 3:41 am

der wo wrote:For me this sounds very logically. The effect of a dildo dissipates over a few days and the woman returns to her original condition too.


Bwahahahaha!!! :lol:
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby DBCFlash » Thu May 18, 2017 3:50 am

I wish I knew how to post a video here. A tiny cloud of microscopic bubbles forms at the bottom of the container. It moves around, grows, forms "legs" and then collapses over and over again during the UAD sessions. Only rarely do any of the tiny bubbles make it to the surface. I have read some accounts that liken these microscopic bubbles to tiny explosions and I've also been told to try watching them in a dark room as occasionally they create little flashes.
There's a lot more going on in this reaction than just shaking the bottle.
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby dieselduo » Thu May 18, 2017 4:36 am

DBCFlash wrote:
dieselduo wrote:I do ultrasonic aging and put charred or toasted oak in at the beginning. After about 30 min there is a noticeable change in color. The machine I have also has a heating element where you can set your temp

Glad to see I'm not the only one trying this. Do you see a significant difference in yours?

Yes I do. Aging in hours.This is similar to the one I have http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-Steel ... Swax5Yrsmy
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby der wo » Thu May 18, 2017 6:43 am

I started an experiment just right now. No ultrasonic, but with a magnetic stirrer. In a closed jar. If it helps, it is oxidation I think. Probably all in all 24h very turbulent stirring. One year old rye whiskey at drinking strength. Perhaps I will experiment with H²O² -oxidation too.
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby DBCFlash » Thu May 18, 2017 1:32 pm

More testing. I ran my Infected Honey Bear Bourbon through the process. The ferment had ph crash and it took days to get it started again, ended up having some harsh tastes, but I've committed to aging it for a long time to perhaps have it come back around. I figured it would be a great candidate for the UAD treatment. I also had a couple of quarts of fresh off the still UJSSM, unaged, un-oaked.
I gave them both the regular 40 minutes and poured a dram of each next to the untreated glass. I tempered them to a lower abv so it would be a taste test.
When the wife got home I asked her to simply test them. She picked the UAD samples and said that there was a real difference in both of them.
She rarely drinks and hates whiskey, but she took the test seriously. This was a blind test and it supports the idea that the treatment makes the spirits better.

I did discover that my driver board is getting very warm towards the end of the treatment so I'll be adding a cooling fan once I put the control box together. I'll add a timer and a switch as well. And ear plugs. This noise gets pretty irritating after a few minutes.
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby DBCFlash » Thu May 18, 2017 2:01 pm

I tried placing a charred oak clock in the UAD and it immediately absorbed all the energy. The cloud of bubbles stopped, the patterns of tiny waves on the surface stopped and the device turned much quieter. Obviously it was preventing the previous reactions from continuing. I'll be skipping that next time.
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby SaltyStaves » Thu May 18, 2017 2:26 pm

DBCFlash wrote:I tried placing a charred oak clock in the UAD and it immediately absorbed all the energy. The cloud of bubbles stopped, the patterns of tiny waves on the surface stopped and the device turned much quieter. Obviously it was preventing the previous reactions from continuing. I'll be skipping that next time.


There are published studies and a pending patent involving this very type of process.
You may want to explore this further. It may very well serve you better than your microwave.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 7716304187
http://www.google.com/patents/US20160355771
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby Fart Vader » Thu May 18, 2017 2:48 pm

I love it!
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Keep up the good work guys. :clap:
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby DBCFlash » Thu May 18, 2017 5:11 pm

SaltyStaves wrote:
DBCFlash wrote:I tried placing a charred oak clock in the UAD and it immediately absorbed all the energy. The cloud of bubbles stopped, the patterns of tiny waves on the surface stopped and the device turned much quieter. Obviously it was preventing the previous reactions from continuing. I'll be skipping that next time.


There are published studies and a pending patent involving this very type of process.
You may want to explore this further. It may very well serve you better than your microwave.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 7716304187
http://www.google.com/patents/US20160355771


In the patent the ultrasonic exposure appears to be done without the charred wood chips. The second part was the application of "actinic light" with the charred wood chips. Actinic light, as I understand it are specific blue end wavelengths that are used for photosynthesis. They appear to be using some pretty powerful actinic lights to get the reaction from the oak.

They are only using 3 watts per liter in their ultrasonic exposure and my device is way past that level at better than 50 watts per liter. At their lower levels I am 100% certain any wood in the mix would nullify all the ultrasonic energy. I might be wrong, but I seriously doubt the wood is used during the ultrasound.

I have no immediate plans to start any experiments with actinism. I just overload my jars with toasted, charred blocks and wait a couple or three weeks.
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby SaltyStaves » Thu May 18, 2017 6:20 pm

DBCFlash wrote:In the patent the ultrasonic exposure appears to be done without the charred wood chips.

[0037] Optionally the vessel for ultrasonic energy step is made of wood or contains wood.

The second part was the application of "actinic light" with the charred wood chips. Actinic light, as I understand it are specific blue end wavelengths that are used for photosynthesis. They appear to be using some pretty powerful actinic lights to get the reaction from the oak.


Greater volumes of distillate and oak (compared to a hobby sized setup) are the reason for that.
My little 2ft aquarium light is perfectly capable of ruining a good batch of distillate.

They are only using 3 watts per liter in their ultrasonic exposure and my device is way past that level at better than 50 watts per liter. At their lower levels I am 100% certain any wood in the mix would nullify all the ultrasonic energy. I might be wrong, but I seriously doubt the wood is used during the ultrasound.


[0031]The amount of ultrasonic energy can and will vary in different embodiments. The amount of ultrasonic energy to which the unmature spirit is subjected to should be at least 1 Watt per liter. In other embodiments, the amount of ultrasonic energy is between 1 Watt per liter and 100 Watts per liter.

I have no immediate plans to start any experiments with actinism.


I'm not advocating that you do. I have been experimenting with actinic light and I'm not satisfied with the results.
If you read the other study, you'll see that light exposure had a negative impact. That is a whole different rabbit hole and it can be dispensed with altogether and still give favorable results.
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby DBCFlash » Thu May 18, 2017 6:43 pm

I just can't see the benefit to oaking during the ultrasonic session. Like I said, the microscopic cloud of bubbles immediately stopped practically the moment the wood was introduced. I am convinced that cloud was the primary cause for the chemical changes in the spirits. Ultrasonic energy travels well through liquids and will reflect well off the stainless steel, thus exposing the entire container to the vibrations. A wooden vessel would stop that energy on contact. I believe simple agitation or heating and cooling cycles would be a far more efficient method to quickly oak a spirit.
To be fair, I will consider running a session with an oak block from start to finish, but I am really skeptical about it's value. I am going to wait until I have installed a cooling fan though, since I believe it will draw a lot more energy and probably create more heat in the controller.
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Re: ultrasonic aging experiment

Postby cob » Thu May 18, 2017 8:06 pm

DBCFlash not that it probably matters, but do you know what frequency you are operating at ?

do you have the ability to control what frequency you operate at ?
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