Spirits aging with hydrogen peroxide?

[der wo]

Because my experiment with oxidation by stirring with a magnetic stirrer failed, here an expriment with oxidation by hydrogen peroxide (H²O²):

Again I have two identical bottles with each 200ml Rye Whiskey (45%, already one year old, aged with much angels share). Both remain closed for the experiment, because I don't want to have evaporation effects destroying the experiment. I don't want to have a good result, which is in reality because of evaporation, and think it was oxidation.

In the first bottle I have added 10ml 3% hydrogen peroxide and stirred it occasionally.
In the second bottle 10ml water. This bottle got stirred a bit too.

[Yummyrum]

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 312AAK3oCW" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Just worthy of a thought

[Stainless]

Hi, Isn't hydrogen peroxide used as a propellant in rocket motors? Also is it not used as a hardener in glassfibre production?
Whatever it is take care Der Wo.
Will.

[der wo]

Yes. If you drink undiluted (or in this case with alcohol diluted) hydrogen peroxide, you will die perhaps. You also will die perhaps, if you drink undiluted alcohol...

Comon, what has this link a shit niveau:
What happens when you mix hydrogen peroxide with alcohol? My father incidently mixed it and drank it and died?
This is all information we have... Perhaps it is a 13yo bored boy who found in the cellar some alcohol and H²O². Or perhaps the father wanted to die this way. Unfortunately I know someone who tried something like this, dying by drinking an acid. It failed, but he got a nice stomach cancer a few years later, wich killed him.

H²O² is a regular food additive. The safety depends on the concentration. In my experiment I have 0.15% H²O². And of course the most of it will react with something to an oxide and water.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Be careful with this one. At the concentrations you mention it probably won't do anything but it's not a great idea to experiment too much with this stuff. It's normally mixed with stuff that is not listed on the bottle that isn't good for consumption but ok for topical use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide#Safety" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[still_stirrin]

I just got out of the hospital a few weeks ago. While there, the nurse brought me a bottle of diluted hydrogen peroxide which was labeled as a mouth wash/rinse. I dipped my toothbrush into the bottle and brushed my teeth and tongue. It was typically used for this intended purpose...in the hospital. I seriously doubt the doctors would allow it if it was dangerous.

As noted, 2 H2O2 -> 2 H2O + O2. So it is natural oxidizer (hence the use in rocket engines).

Carry on der wo. I'm interested in the results.
ss

[der wo]

Yes. Also the H²O² I use has additives. H²O² without additives is available, but would get decomposed within a week.
The most common additive is phosphoric acid. And the normal concentration here is 0.05%. So if my H²O² has the normal formula, my Rye contains now 0.0025% phosphoric acid. But for example Coca-Cola has 0.07% phosphoric acid, 28 times more.

But yes. If I get no effect and want to rise the amount of H²O², there will be a point to think about to get H²O² without additives. At least, when it starts to move from an experiment to a regular use for my spirits.


Yes, the typical use for the 3% H²O² is against inflammation in the mouth.

[Pikey]

Interesting thread. You are trying to use the peroxide to oxidise components of your distillation - Yes ?

Are you worried that the peroxide might act on some of the tannins etc leached from the wood, or is that your intention ?

[der wo]

When I read papers about aging of spirits, I often read "oxidation". Besides evaporation and oaking of course. And the easiest and safest oxidator is air, but unfortunately the magnetic stirrer doesn't work at least in this case. So I try the second easiest and safest one, H²O². I don't know if oxidation is about something from the wood or something of the spirit. There is some information online, both theory and practical. But the practical have all an unthrustworthy commercial backround like "making 20yo Bourbon in a week".

[Lazy]

I'm curious too.

[der wo]

Blind test after 12h:
Absolute zero effect.

But it was perhaps not enough H²O². So I will try a bit more and give it more time:
83ml 52% Rye + 17ml H²O² (3%) = 100ml 43% Rye
Compared with 100ml 43% Rye in an equal bottle.

(Safety information: It contains now 0.5% H²O² (or probably less, because it reacts with the Whiskey) and 0.009% phosphoric acid)

[thecroweater]

Super weary reading this sort of discussion, where as you may do due research what's levels and methods are safe some reader might not.
I know you are not particularly talking about distilling hydrogen peroxide so the discussions in the following links might not pertain exactly to what you are discussing but they do provide a background to some discussion here
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... e#p7396381
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p7395468

[johnnyv]

This could work but peroxides are not very reactive in dilute non catalysed systems it will eventually react but might take a while.
Add a transition metal catalyst and the reaction rate increases exponentially, from weeks to minutes but most catalysts you wouldn't want in your drink at all.

[der wo]

You mean something like this platinum disks for cleaning contact lenses?

I know, they are made from plastic and coated with platinum incomplete. But anyway it would be interesting to see if it works.

[der wo]

Blind test of the more concentrated version after 36h:
Unfortunately again absolute zero difference.


Just right now I try out, if I see a reaction with a platinum disk. And yes it works. When I drop the disk into the bottle without H²O², I see nothing. When I drop it in the Rye with H²O², I see small bubbles. But to see bubbles doesn't mean, I will get a better Whiskey, it only says, that the H²O² or at least much of it didn't react until now. Now it reacts. But 2 H²O² -> 2 H²O + O² ? So perhaps it only reacts with itself not with the Whiskey? We will see.
I know, dropping a piece of unknown plastic into spirits is against the rules here. It's only an experiment. If the mods don't want to hear the results, they can close the thread, no problem. If it will work, I would try to find another catalyst. If someone knows a source, something like stainless stell coated with platinum, please post it. Edit: I just see, there is platinated stainless steel fashion jewelry. Edit2: And a small piece of thin solid platinium wire would be affordable too.

[Pikey]

Blind test of the more concentrated version after 36h:
Unfortunately again absolute zero difference.

...... But 2 H²O² -> 2 H²O + O² ?

OR H2O2 = H2O +O - with the "O" going to "oxidisation" - like it does in hair dye ?

[Edit - How do you do that "superscript" 2 ? ]

[der wo]

Blind test of the more concentrated version after 36h:
Unfortunately again absolute zero difference.

...... But 2 H²O² -> 2 H²O + O² ?

OR H2O2 = H2O +O - with the "O" going to "oxidisation" - like it does in hair dye ? Yes. But how much? The most O will react like O + O = O² I think. The disk is still bubbling. I opened the bottle two times to release the pressure... Probably, if this works, a way smaller dosage would be enough.

[Edit - How do you do that "superscript" 2 ? ] Try alt gr + 2

[Single Malt Yinzer]

You may be on to something with this. Your wort infected by lactobacillus is producing Hydrogen Peroxide at a low rate. The bacteria won't carry over to the distillate, but the peroxide might. The low boiling point (150f) may make it come off with the fores. I'm not sure if much would come over with heads/hearts/tails. It could be something that helps the open fermenters like the Scotts create a smoother whiskey. Someone would need to send distillate to a testing company to compare levels from non-infected and infected wort.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobaci ... _pathogens" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[der wo]

Perhaps. But it's still bubbling a bit. I don't know if it will be smoother after the treatment. I want to wait with testing until it stops. Probably I test it tomorrow evening.
And even if I see a great difference, I don't think the in comparision to my experiment minimal amount of lactobacillus produced H²O² would be tasteable. I believe in the theory, that the bacterias produce acids and the acids with alcohols esters and that this the main effect of infections is.
Btw, my whiskey is uninfected.

If there is H²O² in a new make whisky, I think it will react or decompose completely during the years also without a catalyst. So a lab test must be with new make.

[johnnyv]

Perhaps. But it's still bubbling a bit. I don't know if it will be smoother after the treatment. I want to wait with testing until it stops. Probably I test it tomorrow evening.
And even if I see a great difference, I don't think the in comparision to my experiment minimal amount of lactobacillus produced H²O² would be tasteable. I believe in the theory, that the bacterias produce acids and the acids with alcohols esters and that this the main effect of infections is.
Btw, my whiskey is uninfected.

If there is H²O² in a new make whisky, I think it will react or decompose completely during the years also without a catalyst. So a lab test must be with new make.

It will definitely decompose within several months without a catalyst and faster if you can heat it.
Your use of platinum is probably one of the least reactive of the metals in terms of leaving behind a soluble salt while acting as a solid phase catalyst, but there still will be some dissolution.
You could use iron/silver/copper/cobalt/zinc etc and precipitate it out but you will always end up with a soluble salt remaining, eg Na,K,NH4 etc...
Of those you could decompose NH4 to NH3 and evaporate but you will lose ethanol and other volatile compounds changing the spirit.
Unless you have a closed system with a recirculating gas phase loop containing the catalyst which is getting ridiculously complicated.

It is a shame you cannot produce ozone without the electrical discharge, if you could produce ozone in a contained system it is one of the most highly oxidizing compounds know and will not introduce other species into the mix.

[der wo]

I don't think, I will have to worry about platinum compounds in my spirit. Ok, here with this plastic disk perhaps I have a tiny bit solid platinum dust (besides plastic dust...).

I don't have enough knowledge about chemistry to discuss this. I thought the trick of a catalyst is, that it doesn't react (to a salt or whatever), it only accelerates or causes reactions of other compounds.

The bubbling has stopped now. Tomorrow I will write about the tasting.

[der wo]

Operation succeed, patient dead...

The H²O² caused obvious strong changes after 48h with the platinum disk:

- ugly solventy flavor, not fruity like foreshots, a bit like spiritus for cleaning.
- very obvious cloves flavor.
- a bit unripe nuts flavor.
- all fruity flavors are gone, what makes it one-dimensional.
- less sweet, perhaps bitter.
- there is still caramel, vanilla and rye flavor.
- the color is a bit lighter.

The results are interesting. Because if I google flavors like cloves, I see that it is a flavor from the wood. So probably one of the wood flavors (for example caramel, vanilla) has changed to cloves flavor perhaps. The solventy flavor looks for me like that either the ethanol has changed to something different, what perhaps is very poisonous, or the fruity esters have changed.

I am happy I did this experiment, because it was on my list since a long time. And I am happy that I didn't spent much Whiskey on the experiment. I have decided not to drink it and not to add it to the feints for redistilling, I will pour it down the drain.

[NZChris]

It's only been going for five days. Give it another five.

[der wo]

Good idea.
I will fill it into a small bottle and occasionally open it and sniff. Without the platinum I think.

[skow69]

Very interesting, der wo. Thanks for putting in the effort. Sorry it didn't make magic.

[der wo]

And who knows, perhaps this is how a 1000years old Rye would taste.

[Still Life]

Thanks Der Wo.

[shaawnzee]

If I'm following this correctly, this is one sample you added additional peroxide to, then the Pt catalyst? You might try a new sample with less peroxide with the Pt. You very well may have overoxidized your intended goal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[der wo]

You have understand correctly. But I don't have much hope for another experiment. I don't like the direction the taste has developed in general. I think the reaction (probably oxidation) the H²O² causes is bad in general. It doesn't feel like too much of something, it feels like wrong in general.
For you who reads this thread questions may be unanswered. For me who has tasted the result unfortunately not.

[shaawnzee]

Definitely understand. Being a chemist I'm always curious and try to isolate variables. Hydrogen peroxide is a potent oxidizer compared to oxygen by itself. Although oxidizers are indiscriminate about what they react with, it still may yield a different direction when much less is used. Pt is also not an innocent metal.
I use oxidizers on a regular basis to break down starches and gums for fracturing fluids.
You are very likely destroying some of your sugars/caramels.
Your fruit esters may have been hydrolyzed to carboxylic acids (bitter) and potentially lower alcohols.
If you were to give it another go, I would go easier on the peroxide and give it a bit of time and heat (normal aging heat cycles). The peroxide will get consumed and might be more gentle in the absence of a catalyst.

Love the experimentation, keep it up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk