All-grain vs sugar wash hangover???

[Jeff the Millwright]

I was on this site about five years ago and learned a lot and build a reflux liquid management still based on Rad’s design. I have been doing sugar washes since then mostly using a modified version of Rad’s Gerber recipe for neutral spirits and then did Uncle Jesse’s sour mash corn whiskey but recently started doing full-grain mashes with cracked corn and malted barley.

Here is the set up I built to stir my mash while cooking. I use a half horsepower motor hooked up to a small agitator and a 1500 W hot plate to heat.





Here is a press I built based on a wine press to separate my mash after cooking. So no I do not ferment on the grain.



My first all-grain batch was much smoother than the sugar washes I have made in the past and had a better flavor which I was expecting but also I was expecting hangovers to be the same as my sugar washes or less but unfortunately they were significantly worse and I am wondering why?

I figured my yeast would be happier in a full grain mash than in a sugar wash so I am kind of perplexed as to why hangovers are worse using a grain mash? By the way I did treat my grain mash just like I did my sugar washes first doing a stripping run and then a reflux run taking it up to 91 ½% so they were distilled identically. Also I did very severe cuts only taking 60% hearts cutting out 20% for foreshots and heads and 20% for tails.

One point that has me curious and may be the culprit is how long I let my grain mash settle. This is what Ian Smilely says in his book about grain mashes and ferment times. “A mash intended for distillation only undergoes a primary fermentation. Grain mash fermentations are typically 72-80 hours long, and then they are distilled. In fact, a secondary fermentation would be very deleterious to the ester profile of the mash and would ruin the finished whiskey”

This seems to be in contradiction to what I have read on this site that the longer you let a wash settle the clearer the wash becomes the cleaner the final product will be? But perhaps my confusion is that sugar washes benefit from longer settling times but all-grain mashes if left to settle too long begin secondary fermentation unlike sugar washes which don’t begin a secondary fermentation? Is this my confusion?

I began working 60 hours a week for about six weeks after I cooked my mash so I let my all grain corn and malted barley mashes settle for about two months before I ran them and I’m wondering if that is my mistake?

I do my fermenting in 6 gallon carboys and add ¼ cup of Fleishman’s baker’s yeast which I guess is a little too much so I will cut that back in subsequent mashes but I doubt that is the problem because I was using the same amount of yeast in my sugar washes.

So my main question is do people find that all grain mashes produce greater hangovers than sugar washes or is it more likely that I just let my all-grain mash settle too long and I got the dreaded esters from the secondary fermentation? But the funny thing is that my all-grain product which gave me the bad hangover had a really nice taste and was smooth so it seems doubtful that I had the dreaded esters because I would think the fusil oils and congeners would give an off taste also?

[Still Life]

I was ready to say AHA! make conservative cuts, but then you covered that.
Never experienced a hangover at all since I began drinking my own product.
Perhaps the settling time is the answer. Never let mine sit that long.

C'mon old-timers, I'm curious for an answer too.

[HDNB]

chronic alcoholism reduces the effect of hangovers. try not drinking a drop for two weeks, then have 3 good stiff shots and tell me you can't feel it in the morning.

[Swedish Pride]

is this a once off or have it been over multiple runs?

Have no answers but interested to see what other have to say about it.

[Jeff the Millwright]

This was a once off because I have only done 2-6 gallon carboy’s of all-grain so far. I did separate stripping runs and then ran both together in my low wines reflux run. I am hoping to solve my problem before I make any more all-grain mashes.

[bilgriss]

Really hard to answer without knowing more, honestly.

It's possible, with a single run, that due to smearing your cuts aren't as clean as they might be, depending upon how fast and hot it was run.
It's possible that your ferment was on the warm side, and conditions were right that you produced more fusel alcohols and a larger heads cut than expected, and the 20% mark wasn't right.
It's possible that there's some other contaminant in your product that isn't measured in your description.
It's possible you drank way too much!

My own experience is more in line with the expectations you had before hand.

[Jeff the Millwright]

I appreciate the suggestions bilgriss so I will address each point you made.

I did a very slow reflux run because I wanted to have good clean cuts so I don’t think I had smearing because I can’t smell or taste any heads or tails in my hearts and I have done a lot of distilling the last few years with sugar washes so I think I have my distilling pretty much zeroed in.

I did this fermenting in the spring and in my basement where the carboys never got over the low 70s in temperature.

I can’t see having any contaminant in my product because I have done lots of sugar washes with no contamination and used the same procedures.

And I am very scientific in my hangover tests as I always drink the exact same amount and use a graduated cylinder to make my measurements. I drink the equivalent of 12 ounces of 40% alcohol for my hangover tests and with my sugar washes I have very little hangover and mostly just feel sluggish the next day but with this stuff I had a real hangover. Seeing how bad this stuff was I drank the equivalent of 6 ounces at 40% which is half of my usual and I had as bad a hangover as I do with 12 ounces at 40% with sugar washes product. So basically this stuff gives me a hangover twice as bad as my sugar wash runs.

I really think the culprit is letting my wash clear for too long so that I got a secondary fermentation and I wonder if anyone has any insights into this theory agreeing or disagreeing?

And I appreciate your input that your experience is more in line with my expectations that the hangover would be equal to or less than with an all-grain mash compared to a sugar wash which does make me think I do have a problem that can be rectified because I would rather do more all-grains because I do prefer the taste and the final product is smoother.

[Pikey]

Good evening, you have submitted pctures of your stirrer and your press, but not of your still - and the ones you have submitted will not be looked at by most of the members here as one is taken straight to photobucket ! Please learn how to submit photos direct to the site, because we value your anonymity !

So how much of a hangover do you get when you drink 12 oz of commercial Sour mash whiskey @ 40% ?

[Jeff the Millwright]

Yes Pikey I was planning on learning how to properly post pictures and photos. I did know at one time but have forgotten. I thought photo bucket would work perfectly because it does on another forum I post on. I didn’t think you could upload photos to this site but had to use a third-party photo sharing site like photobucket but I will look into it when I have time and correct my posting. Thanks for the heads up.

Actually I just did a little reading and I see it’s suggested to upload photos directly to the site so I will do that but what I posted so far are videos and I can’t see if it’s possible to upload videos? Action I see there is a 2 MB maximum for files and my videos are over 10 so I guess it’s not possible. I will take some snapshots of my videos and post them as JPEG’s later tonight and will include one of my still.

I have never actually drank 12 ounces of commercial sour mash whiskey but I have drank 12 ounces of commercial vodka to compare with my sugar wash neutral spirit and the hangover seemed about the same. Which was not nearly as bad as the one I got with my own all grain corn whiskey. And since I put my all grain corn mash through a reflux still to 91 ½% I would think it should be about the same as commercial vodka which it is not.

Perhaps no one makes all grain mashes who have read my post yet but I am curious if those that do usually run it off within 96 hours of pinching yeast like Smiley suggests to avoid the as he calls the, “dreaded esters”, from secondary fermentation and that is why I am getting hangover inducing corn whiskey because I waited six weeks or if they don’t think this is a legitimate concern?

[Pikey]

OK well if your sugar wash gives you the same hangover as "commercial", I think something is wrong !

I don't think ANY of us get the same hangover as with commercial spirit.

Please tell in detail exactly how you "cut" fores, heads, and tails, because it seems you are making far more cautious cuts than I do and 12 oz commercial will give me a real hangover. 12 oz (equivalent) of Sour mash, whiskey or Rum will not even compare.

If this is real I have to question the materials your apparatus ?

As to deciding when to run, I think most of us wait until the Gravity tells us the mash / wash is worked out before running. However running with a little sugar still in the wash happens too, if time is pressing. I don't think any of us really give it a second thought, certainly I would not run after the initial ferment, if it was still working and sometimes wait weeks before "stillin".

Which page of Smiley's book says to run early ?

[RedwoodHillBilly]

What is this "hangover" you speak of?

[robdouglas]

My suger wash at azeo is so clean that i have never had a hangover after too much consumption. My all grain is different becuase you dont run it that clean else no taste. I get a small hangover from my ag but nothing like commercial whisky.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

My suger wash at azeo is so clean that i have never had a hangover after too much consumption. My all grain is different becuase you dont run it that clean else no taste. I get a small hangover from my ag but nothing like commercial whisky.

I've given up on sugar washes (corn is cheaper than sugar and tastes better). For high ABV "neutral" spirits, I just do an enzyme converted corn mash, strip it then run it through my CCVM to make an azeo. It isn't "neutral", but it is clean. Never had a hangover from it.

[Jeff the Millwright]

Actually I should have been more specific so I will clarify that when I did my commercial hangover comparison test I did use a premium brand called Skyy Vodka which is advertised as, “Created to be the cleanest and purest vodka around, this is quadruple distilled and triple filtered.” I wanted to compare my neutral spirit to the best vodka available so perhaps just a house brand like Smirnov’s would be much inferior to my neutral spirit as far as hangovers go. It’s been so long since I’ve had to buy alcohol so I really don’t know how mine stands up against a regular commercial brand. So perhaps my neutral spirit is as clean as everyone else’s it’s just that I compared mine to the best commercial vodka available? I’m not saying that’s the way it is I’m just suggesting that.

And as far as cuts go I had two 6 gallon carboy’s with an approximately 9% mash which I ran in a stripping run which gave me about a gallon and a some at about 45%. I then did a reflux run where my hearts average 91 ½%. I usually run around 4 gallons of low wines and distill into 8 ounce Mason jars to make my cuts but because of the lesser volume I only put 4 ounces into each jar and ended up with about 24 of them. Which was about 96 ounces. I multiplied 24 times 60% which gave me 14.4. Rounded down to 14 jars that I took as my hearts so actually I took less than 60% and took the first five jars as my foreshots and heads in the last five jars as my tales. I don’t usually cut this severely but being my first all grain run I wanted to err on the side of caution. Which didn’t work out so good, LOL.

As far as materials and apparatus go I think I’m safe in that department because I spent a lot of time on this site and am well aware of all the pitfalls. My boiler is stainless I use non-lead solder and my column is copper as is my condenser and I even use is stainless needle valve instead of brass because of the small amount of lead in brass. And I only use glass as containers. I really think I follow all of the proper material and apparatus rules.

I’m really sorry to hear that people don’t give a second thought to letting mash ferment out for weeks because I was really hoping that was my problem. I am really at a bit of a loss now?

As far as Smiley’s book I am using an online PDF version and its page 73 of 114 under the heading of fermentation times and here is the link: http://www.curezone.org/upload/Members/ ... illers.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Thanks for the suggestions Pikey...

[Jeff the Millwright]

My suger wash at azeo is so clean that i have never had a hangover after too much consumption. My all grain is different becuase you dont run it that clean else no taste. I get a small hangover from my ag but nothing like commercial whisky.

I've given up on sugar washes (corn is cheaper than sugar and tastes better). For high ABV "neutral" spirits, I just do an enzyme converted corn mash, strip it then run it through my CCVM to make an azeo. It isn't "neutral", but it is clean. Never had a hangover from it.

Well I’m perplexed because I did treat my corn mash which I used malted barley to convert with as a neutral because I did it in my reflux column to 91 ½% so I figured it would be as clean as my sugar wash neutral spirit but with a smoother taste. Maybe I will just try doing the exact same thing again but running it within 96 hours like Smiley suggests.

By the way I was always curious the way people say here their home distilling doesn’t give them any hangover and I always questioned that because no matter what I do with my home stuff if I drink too much I get a hangover so I did some reading online and apparently one in six people simply don’t get hangovers no matter how much they drank so I think there is as much variation to how alcohol affects people as as the alcohol itself.

I know I used to work with his old English millwright who didn’t retire till he was 72 who was an old paratrooper also and he drank every night to the wee hours of the morning because he loved being in the bar and he would go home and get a few hours sleep and be as chipper as can be and out work the guys half his age so I think a lot of it is that some people just don’t get hangovers.

[robdouglas]

I use suger for neutral because it is much cheaper here. I run ccvm with 1m packed column on top of 4 plates. Clean and smooth and no hangover.
Ag on 4 plates no strip 86 to 80 percent about 15% heads cut gives full flavour and mild hangover. I ferment warm abo ut 25C using all malted grains inc barley and wheat but mainly just barley.
I ultrasound all white spirit after dilution air well.

I keep all my ag heads and add them to a suger wash for a neutral run. Add back all ag tails to next ag run.

[Pikey]

The only other thing I can think of is that you may be using bread yeast to go too high in abv and at too low a temperature.

Try buying Lalvin ec1118 which is well known as one of the cleanest yeasts and is happy at lower temperatures. It is not as fast, but is very clean.

I think you're going to have to buy a bottle of "bourbon" or whatever it is you're trying to emulate and do us taste tests against that.

At the end of the day, we don't compare with "Super vodka" - just "commercial" because basically they're all junk !

I need to see that picture of your still - (use "paint" to "Resize" your pic and set the maximum dimension to 800 pixels )

You say you were here 5 years ago ? You need to pm one of the mods to get your old ID back

[robdouglas]

The only other thing I can think of is that you may be using bread yeast to go too high in abv and at too low a temperature.

Try buying Lalvin ec1118 which is well known as one of the cleanest yeasts and is happy at lower temperatures. It is not as fast, but is very clean.

I think you're going to have to buy a bottle of "bourbon" or whatever it is you're trying to emulate and do us taste tests against that.

At the end of the day, we don't compare with "Super vodka" - just "commercial" because basically they're all junk !

I need to see that picture of your still - (use "paint" to "Resize" your pic and set the maximum dimension to 800 pixels )

You say you were here 5 years ago ? You need to pm one of the mods to get your old ID back

+1 for EC118 for suger.

[still_stirrin]

...no matter what I do with my home stuff if I drink too much I get a hangover...

Patient to doctor, "doc, it always hurts when I do this...."
Doctor to patient, "then stop doing that!"

Point is, if you're drinking too much...and you know it...don't drink so much. Your body is telling you that you're damaging it. A hangover, often aggravated by dehydration will cause joint damage, organ damage, nausea, and many other symptoms. If it hurts...don't do it.

Here's a suggestion....drink lots of water. It'll help your liver and kidneys tolerate the poison a little better. Sometimes an NSAID (non-steroidal anti-inflamatory drug) will help reduce the consequences of over-indulgence.

And remember, you're not as young and invincible as you might think you are. The body just can't manage the high toxin levels as well.
ss

[Pikey]

.....I keep all my ag heads and add them to a suger wash for a neutral run. Add back all ag tails to next ag run.

In Europe, we are less "fussed" about heads, Have you tried tasting them ? - I find much of the "alcohol nature" in there - some "bite" which I personally like.

WHen I do 'er "Bacardi(ish) " I often keep the heads bottle (Not Fores) for my own consumption and when "whiskeying" I am becoming more and more willing to add a good portion of them back into the hearts for the final product. - just a thought

[Jeff the Millwright]

When you do an all grain Rob Douglas how long do you let it ferment before you run it? If you let it ferment for months you get a change in hangovers? I was hoping that was my problem but it looks like maybe it isn’t.

I don’t know Pikey if I am going too high and abv with the bread yeast because I am only going to nine or 10% but that is definitely worth considering and any way I don’t like the sweet taste that bread yeast is supposed to give so I was thinking of changing yeast anyways so I will try the 1118. I have used it before with apple cider to make hard cider and that’s how I got into this hobby. I will definitely give that a try.

I figured out how to post pictures by uploading them as attachments but so far I can only get them at the bottom of my post so that’s where they will be and I have included one of my still but only in pot still mode because that’s the only photo I have. For reflux I just put a longer column in and fill it with copper scrubbers.

[Jeff the Millwright]

...no matter what I do with my home stuff if I drink too much I get a hangover...

Patient to doctor, "doc, it always hurts when I do this...."
Doctor to patient, "then stop doing that!"

Point is, if you're drinking too much...and you know it...don't drink so much. Your body is telling you that you're damaging it. A hangover, often aggravated by dehydration will cause joint damage, organ damage, nausea, and many other symptoms. If it hurts...don't do it.

Here's a suggestion....drink lots of water. It'll help your liver and kidneys tolerate the poison a little better. Sometimes an NSAID (non-steroidal anti-inflamatory drug) will help reduce the consequences of over-indulgence.

And remember, you're not as young and invincible as you might think you are. The body just can't manage the high toxin levels as well.
ss

Point well taken but actually I do generally keep my drinking under the limit where I will have a hangover. The only time I get hangovers is when I test the limits were I know I will start to get one to check out the quality of my product. But the problem with this stuff is I’m getting a hangover drinking half as much as what gives me a hangover with my neutral sugar washes.

It’s really unfortunate there aren’t labs that will test alcohol for impurities like congeners fusil oils for the public. It would nice to really know how different procedures affect the quality precisely without the need of a hangover, LOL. There is actually a local college in my area that has a winemaking school and apparently recently they just started a distilling school and once I retire in a few years I am hoping I can take a few classes and maybe they have a lab where I could test things out.

[Jeff the Millwright]

You say you were here 5 years ago ? You need to pm one of the mods to get your old ID back

My old username was Wanker which I thought was pretty humorous but unfortunately no one else seemed to so maybe I will stick with this one. Maybe you have to be Canadian to appreciate the humor in that name, LOL.

[Pikey]

......Point is, if you're drinking too much...and you know it...don't drink so much. Your body is telling you that you're damaging it. A hangover, often aggravated by dehydration will cause joint damage, organ damage, nausea, and many other symptoms. If it hurts...don't do it.....s

Point is he's making good cuts and still getting the same level of headaches as with commercial -

Does your stuff give you the same level of headaches as commercial ?

I'm worried this lad may have some REAL poison coming through here, which needs finding !

[Pikey]

......My old username was Wanker .............

Well I suppose age catches up with us all.
Perhaps when you get the prostate seen to, you'll be able to do it again

[edit - It worked for me ]

[Jeff the Millwright]

Point is he's making good cuts and still getting the same level of headaches as with commercial -

Does your stuff give you the same level of headaches as commercial ?

I'm worried this lad may have some REAL poison coming through here, which needs finding !

Well now you have me questioning everything because quite honestly for years I figured everyone was just exaggerating about how insignificant their hangovers were with their own product because I was definitely always getting hangovers if I drank too much of my own product which I must say I don’t do often so I don’t get lectured again about overconsumption, LOL.

But like I said previously Pikey I have never done a real comparison with regular quality commercial vodka and have only compared my neutral sugar wash to that premium stuff that was supposed to be extra clean which seemed about the same as my neutral.

But the corn whiskey I made from all grain definitely took about half as much as my sugar wash to give me a hangover. I drank the equivalent of four beers in alcohol with my all grain corn whiskey and had a bit of a hangover all the next day which really pissed me off because I usually don’t get that unless I drink the equivalent of 8 beers with my neutral spirit sugar wash.

So I don’t know if I’m getting some poison coming through on my neutral but there’s definitely something wrong with my all grain corn. Which is a shame because it is smooth and tastes great compared to the sugar wash.

[Pikey]

How often and how do you clean your still out ?

Get a bottle of cheap bourbon and do your 12 oz test - or 6 oz if that's all it takes. PLEASE !

[Jeff the Millwright]

How often and how do you clean your still out ?

Get a bottle of cheap bourbon and do your 12 oz test - or 6 oz if that's all it takes. PLEASE !

I clean my still out after every run and I have never had any kind of bacterial infection in my washes or anything like that.

I really think I should get a cheap vodka to do my 12 ounce test because although I am making corn whiskey I am distilling it as if it were a neutral doing a highly refluxed run taking it to 91 ½%.

I do think my neutrals are probably the same quality as everyone else’s but I will know better once I try some cheap vodka as a comparison. But unless anyone comes up with a better solution I think my next all grain mash I will pinch with E-1118 instead of bakers yeast and distill it after four days as Smiley suggests and hopefully that may solve my problems. I did let that settle for two months before I ran it so that might be my problem. But I am open to any more suggestions of course.

[Pikey]

No we're not exaggerating mate !

Our stuff is clean and enjoyable without the "price to pay" - even my missus hates it when I run out of her "bacardi(ish)" - because the "Real stuff" means she has to be really careful how much she drinks !!

[Pikey]

I'm not bothered about "Bacterial infection" - the cooker will take care of that !

My worry is about chemical poisoning - If your cuts are right as you say - then another form of poison seems like the only answer.