Dunder pit infections

[kiwi Bruce]

Ever smelled butyric acid? That is quite a bit off (think baby puke) but can make a pretty good ester.

I have... we had a 5 gal bucket of sauerkraut go bad last month, tossed it in the compost...the whole backyard stunk of puck for a week My middle son called it Pucktyric acid...but I saved some of the juice

[RedwoodHillBilly]

Ever smelled butyric acid? That is quite a bit off (think baby puke) but can make a pretty good ester.

I have... we had a 5 gal bucket of sauerkraut go bad last month, tossed it in the compost...the whole backyard stunk of puck for a week My middle son called it Pucktyric acid...but I saved some of the juice

Might have been interesting to add some feints and H2SO4 just for the hell of it to the "bad" sauerkraut.

Another interesting experiment would be adding some of the juice to a feint run.

[kiwi Bruce]

I'm going to restart the juice in a thin malt wash and see how it "runs" If I can stand the reek of puck inside my "He Shed"...It may have to live outside.

[Shine0n]

it's amazing what a few maggots will do to a dunder pit, them little fellas ate all the shit out of it and now smells so clean and good I'd boil and drink the stuff.

each still has a different smell that I think will be better in a few months but I'm about to start another ferment and start stripping.

I think I have better control of the ferments when using the 20 gallon fermenter instead of the 55 gal drum, ph doesn't seem to be an issue then and finishes faster (3 days)

I wanna strip enough to have 30 or so gal of low wines for a couple spirit runs as I want to fill my Balcones barrels.

I did add 1 pint of potatoes infected dunder to 3 pints of some 15% tails I had and holy mole-eee it smelled like pineapple juice, I'm down to 4 gallons this particular batch but that's the one I'll do first, then start another pit this dunder and add potatoes and soil and age till next summer.

This has been a blast, I can't thank der wo enough for his guidance and links to other posts and literature I would've had a hard time finding otherwise. Also his infections!!! Priceless stuff man

[papapro]

An other excellent thread I cant stop reading someone mentioned that in the old days in Jamaica they were throwing
everything to the dunder pit I am wondering if we could try to infect the pit with tropical fruits which have natural yeast
or veggeys and maybe some native herbs to Jamaica. No I am not thinking ganja.

Regards Papapro

[der wo]

Thank you, ShineOn.
I am very curious, what you and the other interested members will find out next months. It would be great if you find something new, what exceeds the results from me and others. Unfortunately I don't have enough time to play a real active role currently. I am a bit envious because of that. I would like to start a new batch, but I need my time otherwise currently.

[papapro]

Just finished another strip run to yield 3.5 gal low wines, don't know the collective abv as they are in mostly quart jars.
Point being is that I will divide the dunder into two 5 gallon batches and infect each with different ingredients.

1- Swiss cheese culture
2- 2 cups crushed barley malt

ShineOn I think the malted barley might not work very well because when barley is malted is also desinfected for sprouting and
exposed for drying .

Regards PapaPro

[kiwi Bruce]

I am wondering if we could try to infect the pit with tropical fruits which have natural yeast
or veggeys and maybe some native herbs to Jamaica. Regards Papapro

EVERYTHING...not intentionally all bad, dunder, sugar cane trimming, the dross from the sugar pot renderings...plus the in-ground pits had contact with all the right soil bacteria...AND I just found that the ground water is quite basic with a large salt content (100 PPTs I think the USGS said) But I agree...no pot in the pot!

[zapata]

Malted barley is a known vector of contamination in breweries, often lactic bacterias. To the point beer brewers take care to not grind malt near cold-side processing (chilling, fermenting, bottling). So I think malted barley is a good source for bacteria that a whisk(e)y distillery would be full of, especially a whisky distillery.

[Shine0n]

I use the malted barley to introduce a lacto infection, has worked very well this far and a little goes a very long way.

I believe I can get away with 1/8th cup per 4.5 gallons of dunder and have a proper infection started in less than 24 hours, it starts very quickly and as long as I monitor the pH at 5.5-6 it will thrive, I tend to let the pH drop and clean up then restart again with pickling lime and within 12 hours the infection is rolling again.

Has worked with all 4 infections multiple times and now I'm curious on whether the cycles have any major affect on the amount of esters or just bringing back to life? I don't know but time will definitely tell.

[The Baker]

ShineOn said, 'it's amazing what a few maggots will do to a dunder pit'.

Maybe you could put one in each bottle, a la tequila....

Geoff

[Shine0n]

now there you have an idea. lol

Some of them you could use a fishing hook to retrieve

[OtisT]

I feel like a proud papa. I finally let some backset sit long enough to get infected. I've have some sit a month with no joy before I used it up. After a bit more than a week, this Bourbon backset has this little beauty on top. ( that small white fuzzy blob on top).

First infection.

Of course, as I discovered this little gem I have decided not to pursue infected backsets any longer. Just too many side projects, and not enough car boys. That, and I'm getting crap from my boy about all the smells in the house.

I'm still a big advocate of using backset and will continue following the threads on Infection. Otis

[Shine0n]

Sorry to hear that Otis, it's been a wonderful journey and I for one love the smells coming from the dunder but that's just me. Seems they get better by the week!

Maybe sometime in the near future it will work out for ya.

Good luck stillin,
Shine0n

[kiwi Bruce]

Panela...Have any of you used this before to make rum? So I found this at a local food discount store...Panela, is unrefined sugar cane in a hard block, it's available in the local Hispanic food stores.
It was only 45 cents a pound, normally $1.50 I got all they had...eleven pounds. It's strange finding this after starting a "Muck Pot" Someone or thing trying to tell me something?

[zapata]

Panela is famous, a good bit "lighter" than molasses though far from flavorless. I've got a whole series of rums I'm planning out now and am very interested in an infected dunder white panela as it seems a rather unique approach.
And you got a good price. $1.50 you can beat mailorder through sugardaddy, but $.45 is fantastic.

[kiwi Bruce]

I am chuffed at the price...so do you have to boil it to remove the sugar solids or did that happen when it was rendered to make the solid block?

[JoeyZR1]

There are several threads about panela. What you paid is a helluva deal.

[Shine0n]

I watched a YouTube video on sugar daddy panela or was it from his site, anyway, they get the sugar Caine juice on a series of cooking trays like you would with sorghum, it reaches a certain temp or consistency and its put in a vat that they stir and get it to where they like it and put it in moulds. Very interesting video, I'd like to try it someday but right now I'm too busy.

[ElCubanazo]

This is a ridiculously interesting thread. Just finished a small stripping run on my shitty 5 gallon still. Kept 2 gallons of dunder and I'll be hunting for a free or cheap 5 gallon bucket for an infection/culture.

Good to know you had good results with potatoes as a starter. Wonder if a couple tablespoons of yogurt would be a good starter for 5 gallons of dunder? I'm pretty sure one of the bacteria in yogurt cultures is lacto.

Thanks!

[kiwi Bruce]

If you live anywhere near a Walmart, their Baking departments uses 2, 3, and 5 gal food grade buckets for icing, with the lids. These are thrown away and you can usually get them for $1...as many as they have, for a buck. They can't give them away, because of the appearance of theft. They also have rectangular buckets and lids... not good for use as fermenters as the lids don't reseal, but OK for a good Muck pot.

[ElCubanazo]

If you live anywhere near a Walmart, their Baking departments uses 2, 3, and 5 gal food grade buckets for icing, with the lids. These are thrown away and you can usually get them for $1...as many as they have, for a buck. They can't give them away, because of the appearance of theft. They also have rectangular buckets and lids... not good for use as fermenters as the lids don't reseal, but OK for a good Muck pot.

There's no Walmart near me but here in Chicago there's plenty of "Jewel Osco's" around. Thanks for the idea kiwi! I'll check with their bakery section later tonight.

- El Cubanazo

¡Viva Cuba libre!

[Shine0n]

This thread has had me going almost all summer, I have around 13 gallons of rum aging in different ways plus I make all my apple pie with rum and we suck that stuff down like cool aid.

the thing is is not to freak out when shit starts growing and moving all around like it's alive. lol

Thanks to der wo and some advice about the pH levels I've found that for me 5.5 is the best for keeping the pit alive and thriving with the pellicle, I do let the pH drop to 3-3.5 and it goes dormant plus the critters have their way as well but like I said.... don't be skerd!!!

Each of the pits have their own characteristics and contribute to each rum, I have 4 rums with each infection and 1 is a blend of all 4, very interesting stuff.

If you read der wo's threads on infections he explains shit a whole lot better than I can as he know all the names of the actual bacteria strains, I on the other hand just call it FUNK but rest assured I know what's going on.

when it loos like shit, smells like something you've never smelled before just wait until you add it to your low wines and distill... butter, sweet, pineapple, banana with a bit of something special you just can't put your finger on.

That's rum to me!!!

Shine0n

[zapata]

So I wasn't sure which rum/dunder/muck/infection thread to throw this note in, but I suppose this will do. In case you rum heads don't stumble across it in the oat thread, I found this stuff related to carboxylic acids via beta-glucans in oats.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17522598" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Dietary supplementation with beta-glucan enriched oat bran increases faecal concentration of carboxylic acids in healthy subjects.
The subjects were given 40 g beta-glucan enriched oat bran per day...
Oat bran increased the faecal concentration of carboxylic acids... The concentration of all main acids increased, except for lactic acid, which decreased

The full text specifically focuses on butyric bacteria and acids, but the other major rum players are in there too.

And tons of other articles show that oat fiber, specifically beta-glucans are a prime food source for carboxylic acids to be produced by muck/dunder bacteria.

Might oat bran be a good thing to feed a dunder pit? Plain old quaker oat bran is full of fiber, beta-glucan and has just 1 g of sugar in 1/2 cup so hopefully wouldnt encourage yeast/alcoholic fermentation.

On the other hand when I left the nerd studies and just did casual googling I found a guy raving for pages about butyrate for health.
https://thehomeschoolingdoctor.com/butyrate-series/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
He stresses that the best thing you can feed the microherd for butryic acid production is "resistant starch". Guess what contains over 82% resistant starch by dry weight? Raw potatoes! (Per part 6 of his butyrate series).
So strangely enough, I came back full circle to what ya'll have been doing. You might have thought the potato was just supplying the soil born bacteria, but it looks like its also an ideal food source for them. But we do have a member who just made a vomit and pineapple bomb from mashing oats. So, pretty sure I'm just rambling now and should get some sleep! But give me just a sec and I'll tie it back to rum.

At least some articles say it isnt so much the beta-glucans in oats responsible for the invivo butyric acid production. This one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8391563" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow credits butyric acid production on a hemicellulose called arabinoxylan which is a fibery polymer of arabinose and xylose.
These guys have a cool site, they analyze sugar cane waste to look for co-production potential, with some poking around I found a way to see samples with a test username and login:
http://www.celignis.com/feedstock.php?value=13" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Anyway, sugar cane bagasse, the trash that we know is often thrown in the pits contains, yup a fair bit of arabinose and xylose (37% of remaining sugars), most of it polymerized.
Which gets us back to, oat bran is probably a fairly similar replacement to throwing sugar cane trash in the muck pit though raw potatoes are pretty good and come with the starter culture attached. I've been wondering what exactly these microbes eat in the sugar and alcohol free pits, apparently they love fiber.

[Shine0n]

I know that the yogurt and barley malt created the lacto
The Swiss cheese culture was somewhat different but after letting the pellicle settle and the pit mellowed some had the same smell and slightly different taste

The potatoes was off the wall nasty for 2 weeks then I let the pH drop and it settled as well, it was the one that had the pineapple flavors in the final spirit but that didn't stay after airing for a couple days. One thing that stood out to me was at 125p and showing no sign of pineapple I had a 2 Oz pour and added some ice to dilute and BAM the pineapple was right there punching me in the mouth.

Note☆ I did not drink it right away, as the ice melted it got smoother and very nice going down. That was my favorite so far!

The lacto had a nice sweet but yet sour type flavor and was also nice on the rocks.

The blend of all 4 was great and smooth and flavorful all around.

all those were sampled white and now they are aging on AO for a minimum of 6 months.

I'm going to clean my fermenters tomorrow and start 2- 20 gal ferments with my original recipe, do all the stripping runs using my thumper and do a blend of the muck pits/low wines for the spirit run.

Did I ever mention that I love making RUM

Shine0n

[ElCubanazo]

Shine0n, I love this thread. Been reading it and DerWo's and started my first pit with yogurt, potatoes, and dirt. Pellicle developing!

Fun trivia fact: as a bilingual English/Spanish speaker it just hit me that "pellicle" shares the same Latin root as "película" in Spanish which means a film (like the movie) or a film (like in your camera) but I'm sure could be used to describe this (much grosser) bacterial film as well!

Cheers!

[OtisT]

Shine0n, I love this thread. Been reading it and DerWo's and started my first pit with yogurt, potatoes, and dirt. Pellicle developing!

Fun trivia fact: as a bilingual English/Spanish speaker it just hit me that "pellicle" shares the same Latin root as "película" in Spanish which means a film (like the movie) or a film (like in your camera) but I'm sure could be used to describe this (much grosser) bacterial film as well!

Cheers!

I'd watch that. "Attack of the killer Lactobacillus Acidophilus", coming to a ferment barrel near you.

[Shine0n]

I have an empty barrel waiting for some new funky stuff!!!

[Shine0n]

Shine0n, I love this thread. Been reading it and DerWo's and started my first pit with yogurt, potatoes, and dirt. Pellicle developing!

Fun trivia fact: as a bilingual English/Spanish speaker it just hit me that "pellicle" shares the same Latin root as "película" in Spanish which means a film (like the movie) or a film (like in your camera) but I'm sure could be used to describe this (much grosser) bacterial film as well!

Cheers!

Thanks, I appreciate that!!
I'm working so much I can seem to catch a break plus I've been doing my apples and mead but I'm picking up some more brown sugar today and start the newest rum ferment and my pits have aged for a while now and smell amazing so I'm looking forward to a new rum using AGED INFECTED DUNDER.

It never gets old and new smells develop all the time, the rum on oak is getting very good and I might take a jug and proof to 100 and get drunk this weekend

[ElCubanazo]

Okay y'all, I'm doing a spirit run with the infected dunder and I'm afraid because the whole run just smells like shit especially the hearts.

Don't think I've got the tails yet but this smell is not good...

My pit was yogurt, potatoes, and dirt. Not sure why it's smelling so bad. I put about .5 gallon to my 2 gallon of low wines.

Any feedback appreciated!