Banned but not forgotten

[goinbroke2]

Never said anything about it, just stopped going to the novice forum after helping a few which turned into arguments. Couldn't be banned as it was all PM's but the point is the same, after a while you get tired of fighting with people. If you want to learn, then listen, if you want to fight, find someone else.
Add on top of that all the other stuff I'm involved in which isn't whisky related (racing/engines/head work/welding and roll cage work/etc) and I get phone calls at all hours from people seeking advice on several topics. I love to help, but not if they won't listen.

If someone gets banned, well, they broke the rules and got a time out. If it happens again, they obviously didn't learn the first time, so, buh bye.

While I am opinionated, I don't think I'm argumentative by nature. If I know what I'm talking about, I won't back down. However, I've started to debate some and see either (1) they are clueless and will not change their mind even if the truth is beat over their head, or (2) can't be bothered explaining my stance on something because it would take too long to get them to the level required to debate. I then either shake my head and say "I'm done" or get quite rude.

My point is, it's the internet and people say stuff here they wouldn't dare say face to face. As such, we have rules and if they are broken then the mod has the responsibility to step in.
Anybody crying about a moderator moderating should check out yellowbullet which is a dragracing site. Some of these guys do go to the same tracks and fights do break out due to stuff written.
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=11

If you're banned, its on you.

[DAD300]

+1 goinbroke2

Please keep in sight why forums exists! To help people get into your hobby, to explore new techniques and announce new developments,...

Anything else is babble. Not all babble is bad. People post about cats, I just don't click on it. People post about marbles (a packing researched for the last thirty years) and I read it (without responding) hoping for something new. If I said, "You Fing morons. Marbles have been done to death. Go read all the marbles posts." It would be offensive. Some people get banned for babbling in an offensive manner. Some people do nothing but babble in an offensive manner. If you offend enough people...you should get banned. Especially after you've been told, warned and gained a rep as an idiot!

Do you really want distilling advice from idiots or just looking for the entertainment value of a fight? There are forums for rude entertainment.

[OtisT]

...... I have the right to change my opinion on any subject, regardless of how adamant was about it at the time.

+1. I frequently prove myself wrong, but have grown to accept this.

[der wo]

If I know what I'm talking about, I won't back down. However, I've started to debate some and see either (1) they are clueless and will not change their mind even if the truth is beat over their head, or (2) can't be bothered explaining my stance on something because it would take too long to get them to the level required to debate.

Like with the global warming discussion?

If someone gets banned, well, they broke the rules and got a time out. If it happens again, they obviously didn't learn the first time, so, buh bye.

...says someone who should have get more than one warning IMO for political posting.

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=11

Oh, this precious website is your playground. I see there you can post what you really think:
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showt ... 3&page=164
"Black privilege. The ability to be racist against white people." Great, goinbroke, great.
...and what he thinks about jews:
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showt ... 434&page=2
No comment.

[Tater]

If I know what I'm talking about, I won't back down. However, I've started to debate some and see either (1) they are clueless and will not change their mind even if the truth is beat over their head, or (2) can't be bothered explaining my stance on something because it would take too long to get them to the level required to debate.

Like with the global warming discussion?

If someone gets banned, well, they broke the rules and got a time out. If it happens again, they obviously didn't learn the first time, so, buh bye.

...says someone who should have get more than one warning IMO for political posting.

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=11

Oh, this precious website is your playground. I see there you can post what you really think:
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showt ... 3&page=164
"Black privilege. The ability to be racist against white people." Great, goinbroke, great.
...and what he thinks about jews:
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showt ... 434&page=2
No comment.

Now you are the one bringing this shit to HD .Seems your having a problem with way this site is being ran .And its showing up in posts.Maybe you should take a break from here or maybe find a site that suits your needs better.

[Kareltje]

@ Kareltje please please please come over to the bench and tell us how ya got banned from the cat lovers forum I'll play ya red newt song twice over

Especially without owning a cat! Banned but not forgotten, yes we want to read your story!

It seems off topic, but maybe it is on topic after all.
For some reasons I was a member of a catlovers forum. And you know how it goes: you post here and there and you get friends and foes. I did (and do) not own a cat, but for some arguments I kind of borrowed the cat of a friend, the one I posted before. And of course I sometimes can give advise, because I can think and feel.

One day my friend called me: Kareltje just died in her arms, screaming of pain. After autopsy the internal organs were totally destroyed. Whether by a tumor, bacteria or parasites I forgot, but the case was hopeless anyway: she was eaten alive.
More or less in honour of this tragic loss, I made a topic on the forum, saying that my cat had died in a horrible way. Than to my surprise from all over the forum people I had never seen were sending messages. Well, I am glad to get some sympathy from people I know, but I do not care much for comfort from people I have never seen. They are just comforting themselves, not me. Truckinbutch has a very good story about that kind of people.
Than one of the two socalled friends who knew I did not really have a cat, turned around and made a topic: Do not trust him! telling everybody I did not really have a cat. Then the mob started! From the darkest pits of the forum people came to offend, insult and threaten me. Even one of my foes defended me, by saying I had done nothing against the rules. While asking for a ban, insulting and threatening were expressly forbidden on this forum, it was done to me. A whole sunday I was defending myself against this vomit from my screen. As I am raised by catholic parents, I had the feeling of one day Hosanna! and the other day Crucify him!. People who were in tears talking about their dear childs, were now saying they would gladly have ripped me apart with their bare hands if they could.
I am a bit proud that I kept my stand, answering as good as I could and not shout back.
The owner of the forum had a day off and I still smile secretly when I think of how he found it when he returned late in the evening. All the hens flapping around in the den, because there was a fox in the house. He asked me to call him. I did and he asked me to apologize.
“Apologize??? For what? Not having a cat? And still have the nerve to write about it??”
“Yes: apologize or you get an IP-ban!”
“I do not know for what and to whom I should apologize? I did not hurt, insult or offend anyone, let alone threaten someone! They threatened me!”
Than, at 0:00 mondaymorning, I was disconnected.

The experience teached me a few things. But I think you can draw your own conclusions.

[Swedish Pride]

wow, what a hateful forum that is, straight up discussing carry on by some of the members there

[Truckinbutch]

Time out here ! Each individual posts what he/she thinks is right for them . I came here with an honorable idea and a lot of enthusiasm .
Learned the correct way to achieve my goals . Took a radical stance once I got grounded here .
To what end ? Rightly being offered 'Read Only' status .
Kind of isolates me from the friends I have made .
Figured out that I'm having a fist fight with my keyboard that makes me the loser .
So, there you are ; if I talk to you I'm trying to help .
If I don't respond : either you need to do more research or you are asking questions outside my realm of experience .
I did not take you to raise and it is not incumbent upon me to cater to your needs .

[MichiganCornhusker]

Just curious, K, where did you find the pics of the still you pretend is yours?

[Truckinbutch]

Just curious, K, where did you find the pics of the still you pretend is yours?

Interesting question .
Waiting to see where this goes .

[RedwoodHillBilly]

OK, I've got my popcorn and a beer.

[Kareltje]

Just curious, K, where did you find the pics of the still you pretend is yours?

Good one!
I swear to Octopus Paul, vuvuzela be His name, luckily He does not care, that I made these pictures myself.
But on the other hand: what is the problem?

This is a forum about distilling as a hobby. So the only really interesting contributions are about this subject.
All other remarks are for fun, originating from liking each other. Or they are about disagreements.
Maybe a waste of time or serverspace, but they are bonding to make a community.
Being rude to each other is a waste of time too. Speaking for myself: I do not care and can be quite rude too. But it rips up the feeling of a community.
So I understand why there is a limit on being rude.

But pretending to have a still or a cat or a car is not important, as long as you have a sound contribution about the real subject: home distilling. Again speaking for myself: I made more calculations than runs. Maybe my friend has a still and I cite his results. So what?
As long as my contributions make sense, why not accept them?

To be on topic again: Rad could be very rude against newbies. And apparently newbies have a very thin skin. So maybe they should be protected against him. I do not want to discuss that, it does not interest me.
But he had a great experience in distilling and was willing to share that with us.
So: he is banned. Maybe for good reasons. But he is not forgotten. Maybe for good reasons too.

[Kareltje]

Just curious, K, where did you find the pics of the still you pretend is yours?

Interesting question .
Waiting to see where this goes .

Maybe you see this, although you blocked me.
While writing about my banning I had to think of you.

You told about the funeral of your father (if I remember correctly) and about the folks that were telling you to call them if you needed something. And you took them apart and told them you needed 15.000 dollars for the funeral. And how they fled as fast as they could.
That is how I felt about the posts of empathy of people I never did hear about before. Void.
Later the same kind of people came to rip me apart.
Hosanna! Crucify him!
By the way: I very much like your action at the funeral and my friends do too.

[thecroweater]

@ Kareltje sorry to hear you or anyone copping that sort of disgusting behaviour on a forum but it does with clarity bring to point something very relevant to this thread. Every time some not unanimously popular decision is taken by the admin team others a bit of a backlash and some that point out forums that run with little or no moderation. Well I think we've had a good glimpse at what that looks like and its pretty damn ugly and you got to ask how useful would such a forum be. Now I'm not keen on talking too much about ppl unable to post here when they can neither collaborate or refute what's posted. To me that is like kicking a man when he's down and insults my sense of decency, that said I'm darn sure the two mentioned above (both ex mods) are well aware and support the importance of moderating. Do the mods and admin always get it right? Probably not but they do what they believe is in the best interests of the forum at the time, ain't hindsight grand. You can be very certain Rad moderated and posted in a way he believed was in the forums interest, no doubt some agree and many don't.
On comments about new members, being treated a bit different : Well yes actually as most are just starting out and all are new to the group. Many have no experience with forums and are naturally excited about their new hobby, this group and the wealth of knowledge suddenly laid at their feet. No one likes to move into a click only to get snobbed or belittled by any group they are looking to associate with. It didn't happen to me but it has happened to many and its pretty ungracious, we were all new once and no one knows everything. Hell I've picked up ideas from full rank greenhorns that had an idea I never contemplated, its how this knowledge sharing works and just because you feel someone is a fool in one field does not mean they ain't a maverick on another with a trick or two to teach you. Newbies come here with a lot of erroneous ideas and that is to be expected and can be corrected in a frank and honest way without being condescending or belittling beliefs they may have got from people they hold in regard. Imagine walking into a pub convo and getting told ya Pa and Grandpa were dipsticks and full a shit, bet that bar would get rowdy fast, treat this as the same situation and we'll get along just dandy fine most of the time. I've confronted keyboard warriors in person and its generally a very very different story face to face.

[Yummyrum]

Nicely expressed @Crow . .....and that is why you are such a well respected Mod .

[Uncle Jesse]

This web site is for sharing and learning about distillation. Period.

The rules exist for a reason. As I've always said, if we start talking politics, I'll be the first one most of you hate. This just isn't the place for it. Plenty of places on the net for people to argue and bicker and try to prove they are smarter or more well informed than everyone else. This isn't the place. Period.

I don't want to see any more stalking people on other sites to "expose" their beliefs. I don't care what you think about politics, or why. This isn't the place for it. If you want to make enemies, or talk to people who think like you about how right you all are, there are many places for it on the net. This isn't one.

The users who have been banned or made read-only were warned many times. They went against the rules repeatedly and were asked, warned, warned again. Then a group consensus of people who help run this site was reached.

I can't tell you how many emails I get from people who are angered or hurt because they are new and asked a newbie question or exposed their lack of knowledge and were shot down and/or ridiculed for it. Many of them give up and don't come back. THIS IS NOT THE SPIRIT OF THIS SITE. I won't allow it. I was a newbie too once, and had nobody to ask because there was no online community. I read books and asked anyone I could, and read more, and sifted through conflicting nonsense, and called distilleries which refused to speak to me, and finally figured it out myself. One of the big goals of this site is to help newbies and to teach them how to do things safely and properly, not to drive them away and make them feel like idiots because they are at a stage we were all at once upon a time.

This is not to say we need to spoon feed people who refuse to put in the effort to learn. It's a fine line, I admit.

I like Rad. He's a great guy and has contributed some unbelievably great content to this site and has helped further this hobby more than 90+ percent of people ever will. If anyone thinks it was an easy decision then you are not only wrong but are also assuming that we know nothing and/or care nothing about this site, its content, its users, and the tone of this community.

As far as it depends on me, this site will remain a friendly and open and welcoming place for distillers of all skill levels. The only thing we have in common to unite us is our love of the art of distillation. We have all races and religions and political beliefs and it will stay that way.

[Oldvine Zin]

Thanks Uncle Jesse for hosting this site and keeping it real and user friendly.
In a way I'm sorry to have started this thread, but it did bring up some valid points.I do miss the contributions that both rad and shed brought to this forum and I also understand the need to follow the rules. It's a tough to keep things civil here and I applaud you and all the mods for keeping it that way. If you want to lock this thread so it doesn't continue the path it was running - please do.

Thanks for all you do

OVZ

[Kareltje]

@croweater: Oh, in hindsight it taught me a valuable lesson. Nowadays when someone attacks me with words, in my mind I take a step back and try to listen to what he is saying, letting the harsh wind go past me.
And when the puke does not stop, I will quit.
And it indeed made the role of good moderators very clear.

Thanks to Uncle Jesse, Tater and other mods for keeping this forum clean.

[Tater]

Just curious, K, where did you find the pics of the still you pretend is yours?

Good one!
I swear to Octopus Paul, vuvuzela be His name, luckily He does not care, that I made these pictures myself.
But on the other hand: what is the problem?

This is a forum about distilling as a hobby. So the only really interesting contributions are about this subject.
All other remarks are for fun, originating from liking each other. Or they are about disagreements.
Maybe a waste of time or serverspace, but they are bonding to make a community.
Being rude to each other is a waste of time too. Speaking for myself: I do not care and can be quite rude too. But it rips up the feeling of a community.
So I understand why there is a limit on being rude.

But pretending to have a still or a cat or a car is not important, as long as you have a sound contribution about the real subject: home distilling. Again speaking for myself: I made more calculations than runs. Maybe my friend has a still and I cite his results. So what?
As long as my contributions make sense, why not accept them?

To be on topic again: Rad could be very rude against newbies. And apparently newbies have a very thin skin. So maybe they should be protected against him. I do not want to discuss that, it does not interest me.
But he had a great experience in distilling and was willing to share that with us.
So: he is banned. Maybe for good reasons. But he is not forgotten. Maybe for good reasons too.

Never could see where telling a lie or living a lie was not important.If your willing to lie that easy on one thing why believe you about anything way I see it. Just another form of trolling

[Kareltje]

This can lead to very deep philosophical discussion.

On a forum like this, where everybody uses a nickname and a funny picture as an avatar we can never really be sure if a member is real. For all I know you all can be robots or fakepersons.
I learned you can never blindly believe someone. If only because he can be mistaken or in turn been lied to. And than knowledge changes time and time again.
We all thought some years ago that methanol could be removed by throwing away the fores and the heads, but now we know that is not true. Not because someone lied, but because we did not know better in that time and it seemed too logical to discuss. When in those days someone would have said that methanol could not fully be removed, he would have been treated here the same as someone using plastic is treated now.

For practical reasons it is best to act as if I, you and the other members of this forum are real people and that we all talk honestly over our doings and that we are nice to each other. Until proven otherwise. Only than it is time to change your mind and take measures.
To me this forum is a nice place to be: I can learn a lot, get some new ideas, have some fun, can talk freely about my hobby, can help some people now and than, discuss things, generate new ideas etc..

Or at least I please myself by thinking that.

[JellybeanCorncob]

Kareltje: You are a piece if work!
I like it.
JBC

[Tater]

This can lead to very deep philosophical discussion.

On a forum like this, where everybody uses a nickname and a funny picture as an avatar we can never really be sure if a member is real. For all I know you all can be robots or fakepersons.
I learned you can never blindly believe someone. If only because he can be mistaken or in turn been lied to. And than knowledge changes time and time again.
We all thought some years ago that methanol could be removed by throwing away the fores and the heads, but now we know that is not true. Not because someone lied, but because we did not know better in that time and it seemed too logical to discuss. When in those days someone would have said that methanol could not fully be removed, he would have been treated here the same as someone using plastic is treated now.

For practical reasons it is best to act as if I, you and the other members of this forum are real people and that we all talk honestly over our doings and that we are nice to each other. Until proven otherwise. Only than it is time to change your mind and take measures.
To me this forum is a nice place to be: I can learn a lot, get some new ideas, have some fun, can talk freely about my hobby, can help some people now and than, discuss things, generate new ideas etc..

Or at least I please myself by thinking that.

Utter bull shit. Telling a lie for hell of it is lot different then passing on what you believe to be true. Fact is you lied .When found out they banned you .Ive always believed when your doing the telling .You should state whether its what ya know heard or read .Now from what you have said here members will have to decide if you know what you know or just lying again .

[MichiganCornhusker]

This can lead to very deep philosophical discussion.

Blah, blah, blah...

Or at least I please myself by thinking that.

Carry on.

[Truckinbutch]

I don't think I will be making any modifications to my "Ignore"list .

[Kareltje]

Utter bull shit. Telling a lie for hell of it is lot different then passing on what you believe to be true.

You are right about that. But that is only true for the talker, not for the listener. The listener may feel betrayed, because he trusted the speaker. And he has an argument if the speaker did his best to gain that trust.
I never ever try to make someone trust me, especially not blindly. Make your own decisions, do NOT follow me!

Fact is you lied .When found out they banned you .

No, I was not banned because I lied. I was banned because there were more flapping hens than this one fox. From the point of view of the forumowner I really understood his decision: I would have done the same. But I would have hated the hens for it.

Ive always believed when your doing the telling .You should state whether its what ya know heard or read .

Oh, I fully agree with you on that! A part of my training was academical, and lieing is a capital sin in science.
But I learned too, that every science has its own set of rules, its own dogmas, its own basic laws. They can exist alongside each other, but an important argument in one science can be meaningless in another. Annealing copper does not work the same way as annealing iron. Making a flavourrich whisky is not the same as making a flavourless vodka. Both are valid, but only within its own limits.
And than there is storytelling and making jokes, sarcasm, cynism, imitation and things like that. I made up a story to honour the grieve of my friend and the pain of her cat. I did not want any of the reactions I got, I certainly did not ask for the empathy etc..

Now from what you have said here members will have to decide if you know what you know or just lying again .

Yes, but they always should be aware of the possibility that I (or anybody else!) am mistaken or misinformed. And they will correct me if they know I am wrong. I am not an allknowing god or a prophet! Do not follow me, think for yourself!
Check what I say and if I am wrong, correct me. And if I was stupid, you may laugh at me. Not that I like it, though.

Edit: I was pouring myself a new glass and the tv was showing something about Santa Claus. So every child in the USoA was lied to about Santa Claus and all the adults lied. I remember how mad I was when I found out my parents had lied about Sinterklaas.
I suppose you own a weed whacker, so it is logical you lied to your children. Or not?
For me it was a reason to doubt my parents stories about a god and all other things. Freed my mind to think on its own.

[der wo]

Now you are the one bringing this shit to HD .Seems your having a problem with way this site is being ran .And its showing up in posts.Maybe you should take a break from here or maybe find a site that suits your needs better.

Yes, I don't like how the forum is run. AFAIK it is not forbidden to write not to like how the forum is run.
The main reason is, that Tater is blind on the same eye always. But I see it harmonizes with most members. So it would be silly not to give up here.
We have a member criticizing in his "Location"-line his government for being socialistic, so he makes a political statement every single post. He has an own thread for his climate change denying stuff, posts a bit about dragsters and here and then right-extreme political statements (some condoned, some not). This sums up to 95% of his posts the last years. Tater had time and opportunity enough to stop this because of rule 5 or 7. He didn't. Seems for him everything is all right more or less.
There is a thread about applauding each other to be ready and willing to shoot a fleeing thief down. But when a member writes, that he thinks it's not all right to do that (and in many countries it is not all right to do that), everyone can get agressive against him and by the way post racist opinions without consequences.
There is a thread about thanking the Vietnam veterans for their service. But what would happen if someone would dare to write, that there is nothing at all to thank them (the main opinion worldwide) or if someone wants to thank their enemies? Tater would call it shit stirring and warn or ban the poster.
His tendentious decisions about political postings are partially responsible why from the outside hd always looks like another group of right-wing American stereotypes on the first view. This limits the forum to grow further internationally (if someone cares). Such an off-topic section damages hd. Of course I know it's not me to decide, but IMO best would be to close the whole off-topic section. Only then homedistillers from all over the world would be really welcome here. Yes, less fun and sometimes inspiration, but much less abuse of hd and btw a much more professional look, what would be better for legalizing aims. Whatever, I know, it's not me to decide and I don't think, the majority is my opinion here.
On the second view of course everyone sees how large the forum is and what an incredible amount of knowledge is assembled here. But on the third view it's obvious that it's simply the network effect that this forum is growing permanentely and other similar forums not. This forum is the largest because it was the largest, that's all. In general it looks you are happy with the lead, you don't need the progress. Perhaps you remember, Odin wrote about that just before he stopped posting here.
There will be a time after Tater. Perhaps then something changes. I fear it doesn't. For now it's better I go in read only. Luckily private circumstances/changes make this decision easier for me.

[WIski]

Another very intelligent, respectful, and insightful contributor bows out. Which one of the "hens" will fill his shoes? Better question, which one could?

[Tater]

Just callem as I see them der wo . When I go to a mans house I abide by his rules and decisions or I leave . Its his house weather I agree with way he running it or not.I dont wine about it or complain I just leave.Odd thing is Im not only mod that watches post .We have a great staff from all over the world.They have the same ability to mod threads as I do.They must not see the threads same as you either.Seem its you that see us as right wing Americans on this site not the world.And yes we do respect our vets.Dont have to agree with reasons behind a war to respect the men and woman who fought and died in it.My family has vets from Vietnam Korea and Germany .Im proud of all them. As far as me staying around . I hang around as long as uncle jessie lets me.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Nothing good ever comes from these threads.

[The Baker]

What was done had to be done.

Geoff