Malt Extract

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Pikey
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by Pikey »

In honesty - I've never had a "dreadful" one :o

But as an old winemaker, I don't have an issue :)

time nd tide cure most things :wink:
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by nerdybrewer »

kiwi Bruce wrote:
Pikey wrote:You have to do a ferment and follow an idea, then distill and taste, age and adjust the next protocol from where you got to , to where you want to go flavour wise. Otherwise use one of the "Tried and True" recipes.
Never a truer word spoken/written :lol: Your right...work with the results of your last effort...make the adjustments that you think will move your effort in the right direction...make a new wash, ferment and distill...age, taste :- repeat

To any nu-bees reading this...you MUST keep damned good notes. If you don't you'll end up repeating yourself...wasting your time and coin and drinking your mistakes. Most of these were, for me anyway, not that terrible...however some were like sucking canal water through a straw. You can keep these to a minimum and keep moving forward, if you keep good note.
It can still be up to chance, you still have to avoid making the same mistakes over and over.
Not that I know anything about that... ;)
Cranky's spoonfeeding:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52975

Time and Oak will sort it out.
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by doktorno »

Dear Pikey and friends,

We did everything according to your recipe, but with double qty. of LME.
It was 2 weeks ago. SG was 1080.
We are fermenting in old vine cellar, air temperature is 15 C. Fermentation is going slowly.

Temperature of the liquid is 16 C.
Now is 1050. Smell just fantastic. Beautifull smell. We used Bayanus Yeast - it can work at minimum 5 C. Doing his job but I think too slow? Added 100g of yeast to 200 litres of wash. 45 kg of sugar in 200l of water.

Is it necessary to heat the liquid, and how? Or let it go on this way - in cooler conditions.

I know that some extra-class beers are made in cooler enviroment.

Maybe we can use hot water in plasic bottles to warm the liquid?
Or to add extra DAP.

DrNo
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by kiwi Bruce »

doktorno, the higher you can get your temp, within reason, the better the chances are for ester production and a really fantastic whisky. I don't know if you can get this where you are, you may have to use e-bay, the hardware stores here sell long electric heating cords to heat and de-ice gutters in winter, this should be long enough to rap around a 200 liter barrel twice or more. Try and get your temp up to 25 C or as close to it as you can...you can even drop an aquarium heater into it. It will work the way you have it...it will just take some time to come down...and remember you'll not get to a 1.001 end point, LME has a fair amount of unfermentable malt sugars, so 1.010 or a little lower would be good.
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by goose eye »

Get you a hot water heater element.
Wire it right with way to control temp an just drop it in your barrels


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Re: Malt Extract

Post by Pikey »

doktorno wrote:Dear Pikey and friends,

We did everything according to your recipe, but with double qty. of LME.
It was 2 weeks ago. SG was 1080.
We are fermenting in old vine cellar, air temperature is 15 C. Fermentation is going slowly.

Temperature of the liquid is 16 C.
Now is 1050. Smell just fantastic. Beautifull smell. We used Bayanus Yeast - it can work at minimum 5 C. Doing his job but I think too slow? Added 100g of yeast to 200 litres of wash. 45 kg of sugar in 200l of water.

Is it necessary to heat the liquid, and how? Or let it go on this way - in cooler conditions.

I know that some extra-class beers are made in cooler enviroment.

Maybe we can use hot water in plasic bottles to warm the liquid?
Or to add extra DAP.

DrNo
Hi DrNo, I've got one going too and it's been about 5 weeks now. Dropped my hydrometer, but the taste is getting bitter, so won't be long now. This time of year, it's slower due to tempertures of course. I'm going to build a fermentation cabinet to hold a couple of fermenters.

Yeah bring your temps up if you can, but mine always take a fair while. I think it may be the fairly high abv's I'm aiming for in the wash.

I toy with the idea of doing lower abv's to speed it up, and double distil - but I've no idea how much flavout I'd need to start off with - quite a lot I reckon. Your idea about doubling LME might be a way forward - and then using wash to bring the first distill down to around 15% (for my setup) might do it.
Are you going to double distil ? or 1.5 ? or single ?

Hope it goes well for you - I'm sure it'll be fine.
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by thecroweater »

What do you guys think the malt extract is extracted from :lol:
Add sugar, don't add sugar and adjunct don't add adjunct doesn't matter it will affect the yield but it depends what ya happy with. As far as semantics goes with home made stuff for personal use we are not locked to marketing strategies. That said if some ones says something like if sugar is added its a rum they are a delusional tool. Whisky by the way is a term used to describe more than Scotch whisky, for instance Tasmanian whisky and if ya really want to get pedantic no drink aged less than two years in a barrel is deemed to be whiskey or whisky but that is just regulatory bullshit. If the primary flavour is grain and the result is the characteristics associated with whiskey then for all intended purposes what you produced it whiskey.
Another interesting fact, all alcohol is from fermented sugars, no sugar no buzz juice, that simple. OK so not all sugars are equal but they seen well will be when the yeast gets hold of them because if the yeast can't break down what ever long chain sugars you have into simple short chain sugars.... no buzz juice. Different sugars will sometimes give ya different results but that will likely have more to do with how a given yeast breaks it down and what can't be fermented. Is AG better than a sugar head? Long term yes most of the time in my opinion anyway is a sugar bump better than a purely AG? hmm now that can depend and can get subjective, is any AG better than the other two? Ha not nearly
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by Pikey »

thecroweater wrote:What do you guys think the malt extract is extracted from :lol:
Add sugar, don't add sugar and adjunct don't add adjunct doesn't matter it will affect the yield but it depends what ya happy with. As far as semantics goes with home made stuff for personal use we are not locked to marketing strategies. That said if some ones says something like if sugar is added its a rum they are a delusional tool. Whisky by the way is a term used to describe more than Scotch whisky, for instance Tasmanian whisky and if ya really want to get pedantic no drink aged less than two years in a barrel is deemed to be whiskey or whisky but that is just regulatory bullshit. If the primary flavour is grain and the result is the characteristics associated with whiskey then for all intended purposes what you produced it whiskey.
Another interesting fact, all alcohol is from fermented sugars, no sugar no buzz juice, that simple. OK so not all sugars are equal but they seen well will be when the yeast gets hold of them because if the yeast can't break down what ever long chain sugars you have into simple short chain sugars.... no buzz juice. Different sugars will sometimes give ya different results but that will likely have more to do with how a given yeast breaks it down and what can't be fermented. Is AG better than a sugar head? Long term yes most of the time in my opinion anyway is a sugar bump better than a purely AG? hmm now that can depend and can get subjective, is any AG better than the other two? Ha not nearly
Yep - that about nails it I think - My opinion of LME is it's a flavour ! - Yes we've been through all the other stuff on this thread, but my fake "Glenm...." is quite acceptable to me - but my still is a little better than straight pot - and I use fairly high abv washes.

That means this time of year I spend a lot of time " waiting ...."

Then I read of people fermenting out in 3 days - F*** knows how that happens - but I'd like to get a lot closer !
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by doktorno »

Hi Pikey,

We made it in two barrels with two different types of LME.
I think that we will try single and double distillation, so we can judge the results,
After distiling, and also after aging.

Fermentation is going slowly this year, i heard that from some other grape-vine makers.

I added some DAP and little bit of mixing-aeration, and liquid is bubbling again

Thank you friends!
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by doktorno »

Pikey hello! Hope you are doing well!

I have some further questions:

- What is you method of diluting spirit to drinking ABV, after aging with oak? Single dilution or "in stages". Which kind of water is best for you? Distilled, demineralised or spring water from the store?

- Do You lose some of the taste and color after diluting, and do you correct it bu re-turning the oak?

- Do you filter your whisky through some paper before bottling. What is your drinking ABV and do you have cloud (haze) problem when water or ice is added?

Many thanks.

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Re: Malt Extract

Post by kiwi Bruce »

doktorno wrote:Pikey hello! Hope you are doing well!

I have some further questions:

- What is you method of diluting spirit to drinking ABV, after aging with oak? Single dilution or "in stages". Which kind of water is best for you? Distilled, demineralised or spring water from the store?

If you run your still way past any tails that are left and your getting almost totally distilled water...this last distillate is sweet ( it's called sweet water) and can be saved to use as part, or all, of the cut liquid used to dilute the spirit...even if it's been on oak and you dilute it, it can go back on the wood, if you think it's not to your liking. You can dilute in stages if you want...I don't, but I have a pretty good idea where I'm going when I dilute.

- Do You lose some of the taste and color after diluting, and do you correct it bu re-turning the oak?

Yes and Yes...I tend to over oak as the "character" seems to weaken over time...the over oaked spirit seems to come about right after diluting

- Do you filter your whisky through some paper before bottling. What is your drinking ABV and do you have cloud (haze) problem when water or ice is added?

No and No...if there is any charcoal in the bottle it's from the charred oak I age with and it's a very small amount. I bottle at 80 proof.. 40% ABV... (tradition,I guess) never had a hazing problem in a spirit where I didn't want it.

Many thanks.DrNo

Your Welcome... Kiwi Bruce
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by doktorno »

Thanks Kiwi,

4 days ago, we did distillation of LME fermented beer, according to Pikey's recipe. We used dark LME (I bought it by mistake). We did double distillation in copper alembic still. Taste of the "white dog" is nice, little bit honey taste, sweet, but also with the character of dark malt. Little bit of toasted sugar taste.

Fresh spirit taste is not even close to finall whisky taste. We put it on the oak sticks, 65ABV, one half on the chared oak and second half on the toasted oak. Just to see the difference in oaking.

Color is very nice after 3 days, but the taste is very far away from the single malt wiskeys. It taste very harsh now, like combination of grain alcohol and oak. It still taste sweet, but harsh, oaky and undefined.

Is it going to be better after 3-4 weeks? Or 3-4 month? I read some experiences - some people were disapointed with fresh disttilled whisky spirits, but after few months on the oak, they were delighted!

We have second batch of light LME beer just finishing fermentation. Maybe the results will be better. We have many experience in producing of fruit brandies, but we just don't know how to judge the taste and the potential quality of the "fresh distilled whisky" Do you call it White Dog?

Your comments are welcomed!

P.s. Our oak sticks are very good, made from very old wood, many years exposed to outside weather. Toasted and charred according to "homedistiller" instructions. Added 140 square cm/liter, it is near 20 square inches / liter.
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by zapata »

I recently looked into the grains that makeup a typical dark malt extract, and they seem to be in similar ratios to what one would use in a whiskey. But the specialty grains are often thought to need more time to age out. So no one can say for sure, but you are probably looking at 6 months to a year or more for the dark malt.

The light malt will typically be better as a white dog, though the younger you want to drink it, the tighter the cuts should be. A single cut blend is rarely stellar both young and aged, tight cuts are a bit boring oaked and aged, while wide cuts are rough when young.

Knowing how a young whisky will age is just part of the art, there are few words that will help, and few tricks to speed up the learning curve.

You could try taking the oak from your dark malt and using it on the light malt for a round of microwave aging. It is the best shortuct to aging I've found yet and is best done with used oak. It isnt a perfect shortcut to aging by any means, but does get you a head start. I would toast/char a new batch of sticks to continue aging the dark malt on.

But to a certain extent, you might want to start with how long you are willing to age your whisky and make cuts accordingly. Once the cuts are made and blended, it is out of your control, it takes however long it takes.
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by doktorno »

Pikey wrote:
Easy peasey - cheap and give it 3-4 weeks on toasted charred oak, 25 ml of cream sherry and a couple drops of vanilla extract. You'll be getting close to a Glenmorangie.

T-Pee wrote: » Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:56 pm
Yup. It's working. I age at least three months before drinking.

T-Pee wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:14 pm
At two months don't expect a miracle. Check it at six months for one.

So, this recipe with LME, is HQ product, after only 3-4 weeks on oak? And after the bottling of that nice drink, is it going to be stable in the bottle (to keep the same taste after few month)?

Pikey, please give us your comment or explanation. How can you get such good flavour in just 3-4 weeks? Is it because of your LME recipe? Some members had to age 9 month or even 1 year to get tasty drinks. They aged some sugarheads, and corn whiskeys, bourbons and UJ.
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by Appalachian spirits »

I have used DME in some grain bills over 20 years with zero issues. DME or LME uses higher temps and i prepare it in my large brew pot and then put that into the fermenter with the grain and sugar . Ive never done a pure ME wash due to the cost but im sure it can be done. Im not a scientist and i just write down what im using and if its good i do the same thing again. Simple right?
Its fermented alcohol that you are extracting through distillation. Nothing more. Cleanliness and consistency are the most important aspects of this craft and at the end of the day its ALL about what comes out the spout and is it GOOD. There seems to be a lot of opinionated users here who love to spray a lot of nonsense but who makes anyone the expert? And do you honestly think yours is better because you tested the starting gravity or some other book learned nonsense?
If it doesnt work for you does not mean it doesnt work and if thats "not the way you do it" doesnt mean any other way is wrong. To all the snobs who honestly think they produce a better product than the next guy ive got some news for you. YOU DONT.
Bottom line, stop bashing people because they dont use the same process or equipment that you do. Im sick of reading comments about how having a fractioning column is " the only way to make the best whiskey "or "poor yield with that bill" why is yield so important? How is that relevent to flavor or smoothness? Its quality not quantity correct? Another one is "i only use the finest ingredients" or the best one "i only use a pure grain bill because its far superior"... superior? Really? If you develop a pure grain bill thats awesome gives you no right to say its superior to other mash recipes with other ingredients. Im being perfectly honest when i say some of you sound so smug i bet you put your heads down and smell your own farts. ... I joined to try to learn something about the craft ive loved most of my life but most of what ive seen are a bunch of book educated snobs who watch too many videos and have limited experience on a tiny store bought still bastardizing this time honored tradition with a hell of a lot of scientific nonsense. If its all the same to everyone im going to stick to the basics and keep producing a consistantly good product. Btw this isnt entirely directed towards this thread if you hadnt figured that out
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by HDNB »

if i could direct to the thread, what do you mean you "prepare" and higher temps?

are you saying you need to cook dme for a period? does it require enzymes to convert maltodextrins?

i only ever added a pound to a ujssm with favourable results
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by kiwi Bruce »

HDNB wrote:if i could direct to the thread, what do you mean you "prepare" and higher temps?
are you saying you need to cook dme for a period? does it require enzymes to convert maltodextrins?
i only ever added a pound to a ujssm with favourable results
I boil malt extracts to get a "hot break" I think it lowers the foaming. I cool it to "cold break" and remove the trub, I think this helps it aging...a lot of the "off" tails taste is reduced.
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by fizzix »

kiwi Bruce wrote:I boil malt extracts to get a "hot break" I think it lowers the foaming. I cool it to "cold break" and remove the trub, I think this helps it aging...a lot of the "off" tails taste is reduced.
I don't use malt extracts, but that's also what I take from beer brewing techniques (except for tails of course).
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by kiwi Bruce »

It's just the same...in whisky stilling, I can get a PDQ ferment going and get excellent results.
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by HDNB »

so you are saying boil it while mixing, then cool to yeast pitching temps?

i wonder if seb flo and seb gl would reduce the unfermentables to fermentables and reduce foaming too?
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by kiwi Bruce »

I add a little dextrose to the wash to off set any loss to unfermentables - sometimes...other times I add a little more extract...but most times I just don't give a shi#...I don't use enzymes...After the boil I let the wash settle and cool, I rack the wash off the proteins---trub---that fall out and then pitch.
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by fizzix »

WARNING: That DME is hygroscopic. Consider pouring in cold and heating up.
Otherwise the steam from a boil will give you a sticky gluey failed pour.
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by kiwi Bruce »

That's a good safety point...I use hot water but not boiling, Thanks fizzix!
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by still_stirrin »

fizzix wrote:WARNING: That DME is hygroscopic. Consider pouring in cold and heating up.
Otherwise the steam from a boil will give you a sticky gluey failed pour.
Been there...done that. I have some wheat DME and it will turn into a chuck of extract from the humidity in the air if left open very long. Then, I have to chisel it out of the container to add to the wort.

I keep it in a room temperature cabinet so it doesn’t get wet. But, as I pour it from the measuring cup into a rolling boil wort, it very quickly becomes a sticky mess...kind of like taffy candy. Then, I have to scrape it out of the measuring cup and stir the wort like crazy to get the “goop” to dissolve.

As fizzix suggested, always add the DME to the cold water, stir and then heat up. Much more success that way.
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by Pikey »

still_stirrin wrote:
fizzix wrote:WARNING: That DME is hygroscopic. Consider pouring in cold and heating up.
Otherwise the steam from a boil will give you a sticky gluey failed pour.
Been there...done that. I have some wheat DME and it will turn into a chuck of extract from the humidity in the air if left open very long. Then, I have to chisel it out of the container to add to the wort.

I keep it in a room temperature cabinet so it doesn’t get wet. But, as I pour it from the measuring cup into a rolling boil wort, it very quickly becomes a sticky mess...kind of like taffy candy. Then, I have to scrape it out of the measuring cup and stir the wort like crazy to get the “goop” to dissolve.

As fizzix suggested, always add the DME to the cold water, stir and then heat up. Much more success that way.
ss
Or just use LME as flavour for a sugar wash !
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by RNaka »

I posted this on another thread........

"Thought I'd share my results from my recent foray into all DME no boil "Whisky".

I ordered 50 lbs of Briess Pilsen DME ($150 shipped). Filled four fermenting buckets (would have done more but is all I have) with about 4 gallons of tap water (about 103 degrees).

Added 8 lbs of DME to each using drill/paint stirrer and topped off each bucket to about 6 gallons (about 5.5% ABV.) and sprinkled in 18 grams Safpirit Malt yeast. Started bubbling almost immediately

Total time less than an hour.

Fermented dry in about 5 days and ran my first batch through my 8 gallon pot still. No Puking and got 1 gallon of low wines at about 28% abv. Smells and taste like whisky.

Going to do 6 batches and then a spirit run with 6 gallons of low wines and age in a 3 gallon Gibbs barrel.

Obviously more costly than all grain but, given that it would have taken me weeks to do the same via all grain, well worth the time savings, at least to me.

The proof however will be in the results and won't know that for months

Reed"

It's been in 3 gallon barrel now for 3 month and tastes really nice. Kinda like Oban
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by Durhommer »

So I just ran my last lme ferment today and my first half gallon of low wines look like tea it puked so bad lol maybe time to think about a thumper keg build
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by thecroweater »

Don't that shit ya, I use to get that sorta mess with rum with the pot back in the day. That said it always scrubbed up just dandy in the spirit run.
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Re: Malt Extract

Post by Durhommer »

Yeah I know it will it just su ks having to break down and clean you know.side note I just toasted the oak chips in the oven at 390 for 2.5 hours and oh wow its got a nice rich color and the smell is amazing! Gonna be great in about 2 years!
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