Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Distillation methods and improvements.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby Spriit Tisler » Sat May 27, 2017 4:36 am

Stripped low wines diluted to approx 20-30%. Packing height 900mm, diameter 50mm. Was going to increase packing height to 1.4m soon as I get the column welded.
Spriit Tisler
Swill Maker
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:35 pm

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby Klein » Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:27 pm

I have now build a 4" x 61" (room for 60" of packing) column :D
it holds 40 pounds (18.18kg) of 14mm marbles and has a total weight of 55 pounds (25kg).
i made a copper plate for a piece of type L pipe that sits on top of the ferrule, trimmed two sides so it can be removed if i ever want to take it out. I got the idea from Bobbywolf :wave:
Klein
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:03 am
Location: Canada

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby Klein » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:38 am

Well I’m getting prepared to do an experiment with marbles.
I will be testing the effects of: different size marbles, at different to power inputs, to column sizes.
I currently have 14mm marbles from hobby lobby and am looking for places online to buy other sizes (online would be the best as long as they ship to the United States or Canada)
I can’t seem to find anything other than ~14mm at any store I have gone to.
Any links to online stores would be great
thanks
Klein
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:03 am
Location: Canada

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby Klein » Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:32 pm

well i have not even had a chance to think about doing test with marbles. i am now home for a day after being gone for 8 days and have a shit ton of birdwatchers to run (150l of wash to strip ~3 stripping runs as well as 70l of low wines). started well, cold column at the start ups the abv to 90% and then quickly drops to normal.

started my spirit run ~52l 40%abv i have my 2" ccvm head on my 4" column, turns out it cant put in into full reflux at full power :thumbdown:
after a few failed attempts on fixing it i took a copper disk with random holes in it,that was in my scrap box and used it to block part of my take off in the tee.
i then used my notes from when i ran the 2" to scale my take off rate to the higher power input. this should give me a fairly similar reflux ratio.
my 2" would give me 96.5abv my 4" with the same marbles and 12" longer column gave me 94-95%abv :think:

i think this is because the reaction between the vapour and reflux is not as violent do to the fact i have not scaled my power input to my increased column size.
Klein
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:03 am
Location: Canada

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby Uncle Jesse » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:28 pm

I've always used marbles for packing. Perfectly happy with them.

I have one 6 gallon still which I packed with copper mesh. It actually puts out too high a proof for my taste, since I like to make whiskies.
If only the best birds sang, the woods would be silent.
User avatar
Uncle Jesse
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3288
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:00 pm

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby casper the Irish » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:44 pm

Uncle Jesse wrote:I've always used marbles for packing. Perfectly happy with them.

I have one 6 gallon still which I packed with copper mesh. It actually puts out too high a proof for my taste, since I like to make whiskies.


Same here,
I ran with 4 sizes of marbles
I ran with scrubbies, with copper mesh and with SS mesh

in a 3" x36" ccvm column
Marbles drop my ABV% by about 7% and will not tweak with adjustments to power nor TO ratios. Sits there at 85% from start to finish.
My marbles are 14mm. Thats optimum. Smaller marbles ABV drops and just floods so power reduced. Larger diameter, ABV drops and the RC needs turned up, and power reduced.

Scrubbies do work better if more tightly packed, or rolled mesh is best if I want to get above 92%

I know Odin claims a great whiskey at 96% but as UJ says anything that pure does indeed taste different, good for vodka and gin but distinctly lighter, too thin for my whiskey or rum.

In fact since I strip run all my beers I get a better whiskey by potstilling the low wines back with each stripping run and keeping the tight hearts. I am increasingly using reflux to blend with the potstill spirits. Mature each of the hearts separately before blending.
casper the Irish
Swill Maker
 
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:06 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby Rod » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:21 pm

casper the Irish wrote:
Uncle Jesse wrote:I've always used marbles for packing. Perfectly happy with them.

I have one 6 gallon still which I packed with copper mesh. It actually puts out too high a proof for my taste, since I like to make whiskies.


Same here,
I ran with 4 sizes of marbles
I ran with scrubbies, with copper mesh and with SS mesh

in a 3" x36" ccvm column
Marbles drop my ABV% by about 7% and will not tweak with adjustments to power nor TO ratios. Sits there at 85% from start to finish.
My marbles are 14mm. Thats optimum. Smaller marbles ABV drops and just floods so power reduced. Larger diameter, ABV drops and the RC needs turned up, and power reduced.

Scrubbies do work better if more tightly packed, or rolled mesh is best if I want to get above 92%

I know Odin claims a great whiskey at 96% but as UJ says anything that pure does indeed taste different, good for vodka and gin but distinctly lighter, too thin for my whiskey or rum.

In fact since I strip run all my beers I get a better whiskey by potstilling the low wines back with each stripping run and keeping the tight hearts. I am increasingly using reflux to blend with the potstill spirits. Mature each of the hearts separately before blending.


I make a drop of brandy made from red wine and I am happy with what I get

with the marbles my purity is down a little , but when I dilute to 40% which is what I want for my brandy I am not sure if my yield of 40% is that much different

I normally add some caramel to colour , a handful of raisins and some wood chips and let it sit for about 6 months ,

by that time I do not know how much I have got :D , I find with the marbles my spirit is cleaner

I suppose my question is although you are down 7% on what the amount of distillate you get are you that much down on what you drink
The Friendly Spirit
User avatar
Rod
Swill Maker
 
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:28 pm
Location: Aussie

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby casper the Irish » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:48 am

I am down 7% Alcohol By Volume, not a lower yield by volume. I should have written 7%ABV
casper the Irish
Swill Maker
 
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:06 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby Rod » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:30 pm

casper the Irish wrote:I am down 7% Alcohol By Volume, not a lower yield by volume. I should have written 7%ABV


I understood that you spirit was down in strenght

my question was are you down in final volume after cutting to 40 %

that is , say , you were getting 10 litres @ 80 %

are you now getting 10 litres @ 73 %

or approx 11 litres @ 73% which will give you the same volume @ 40 % , cut
The Friendly Spirit
User avatar
Rod
Swill Maker
 
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:28 pm
Location: Aussie

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby Cletus_Spuckler » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:56 am

Hi guys,

Just thought Id check in here before I order packing for my soon to be completed 4"x60" LM column build.

As with most people on this thread topic, I will be aiming to pull neutral spirit as fast as possible whilst maintaining azeo (or near to it). Do we still reckon marbles are better than copper packing for this purpose? If so, is 14mm still the recommended size for a 4" column?

I have now build a 4" x 61" (room for 60" of packing) column :D
it holds 40 pounds (18.18kg) of 14mm marbles and has a total weight of 55 pounds (25kg).


Thanks for posting that info Klein. Very useful.

CS :thumbup:
My 4" Modular Bubbler Build:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=69904

Welcome Centre:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=69903
User avatar
Cletus_Spuckler
Novice
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:10 pm
Location: strayya / knew zelund

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby still_stirrin » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:28 am

Cletus_Spuckler wrote:...Do we still reckon marbles are better than copper packing for this purpose? If so, is 14mm still the recommended size for a 4" column?

You’ll spend a lot more for copper mesh/scrubbies to fill your 4” x 60” column, that’s for sure.

And, marbles can be easily cleaned by rinsing in a bucket of water, whereas cleaning copper mesh will be a little more tedious.

I don’t foresee you having any difficulty attaining azeotropic purity with either form of packing...but the marbles will be more “user friendly”.

If your rig was stainless (which I know it’s not), then the copper packing would help scrub sulfur from the vapors. But, your copper tower will do that just fine and you certainly could use the glass packing.

But...YMMV.
ss
Attention new distillers: Cranky's spoon feed info
What is a Proof & Traille hydrometer: Alcohol-meter
Enzyme info: SebStar
HD Google search info: HD Google-how to
All about mashing grains: Braukaiser
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 5711
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby Klein » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:16 pm

The marbles are very easy to clean, :thumbup: the column is awkward to put on/off the boiler. So I kept it on the boiler all summer, I just ran water down the column after each run to clean it out. I kept the still covered with two sheets sewn end to end. That way it would still be able to breath as I did not want to seal the column. When I emptied the column at the end of the summer everything was perfectly clean.
Klein
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:03 am
Location: Canada

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby Cletus_Spuckler » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:06 am

Thanks again for another good tip Klein.

still_stirrin wrote:You’ll spend a lot more for copper mesh/scrubbies to fill your 4” x 60” column, that’s for sure.


That was my second reason for exploring marbles. In saying that, I just received my first quote for 14mm marbles from an Alibaba supplier; $7 (USD) per kilo. Thats $133!
Cheaper than copper mesh (from what Ive seen), but still not what you'd call cheap!
The borosilicate quote from the same supplier was $300 (USD). :crazy:

Ive been particular to clarify that there is to be no lead is in the glass. The above quote was for soda-lime glass, which I think is ok. I believe lead is only used for crystal.

From my build post:
still_stirrin wrote:For you, I believe the 12mm marbles would be better for 2 reasons....1) price, they’re cheaper per pound and you’ll need a bunch. The 2nd reason, 2) the open area between marbles is less, thereby increasing the surface area to open area ratio throughout your larger column. This will increase heat transfer from the vapors to the condensate, improving efficiency. More (smaller) marbles is more efficient than fewer (larger) marbles.


I need to get some quotes for the 12mm also.

Does anyone know a good online supplier?

CS
My 4" Modular Bubbler Build:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=69904

Welcome Centre:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=69903
User avatar
Cletus_Spuckler
Novice
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:10 pm
Location: strayya / knew zelund

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby still_stirrin » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:02 am

Cletus_Spuckler wrote:I need to get some quotes for the 12mm also. Does anyone know a good online supplier?
CS

These are what I use: https://www.hobbylobby.com/Floral-Weddi ... 4mm/p/3504

Cheap enough to throw in the trash when they fracture...which I’ve had happen to a few. Otherwise, you can “pour” them into the column easy enough. And just tip the column into a bucket of warm water to empty them out. My column is 2” x 39” and holds a little less than 6 lb. worth. No flooding and capable of pushing out 96%ABV.
ss
Attention new distillers: Cranky's spoon feed info
What is a Proof & Traille hydrometer: Alcohol-meter
Enzyme info: SebStar
HD Google search info: HD Google-how to
All about mashing grains: Braukaiser
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 5711
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby Cletus_Spuckler » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:50 am

still_stirrin wrote:
Cletus_Spuckler wrote:I need to get some quotes for the 12mm also. Does anyone know a good online supplier?
CS

These are what I use: https://www.hobbylobby.com/Floral-Weddi ... 4mm/p/3504
ss


Thanks SS (again!), I had checked out those guys, as they have been mentioned a few times. Sadly, they dont ship to AU, so Im going to keep looking. Shame as they are really cheap!

CS
My 4" Modular Bubbler Build:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=69904

Welcome Centre:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=69903
User avatar
Cletus_Spuckler
Novice
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:10 pm
Location: strayya / knew zelund

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby Bagasso » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:30 am

Cletus_Spuckler wrote:Sadly, they dont ship to AU, so Im going to keep looking. Shame as they are really cheap!

How about here: Koch & Co
Bagasso
Distiller
 
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:09 pm

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby StillerBoy » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:34 pm

Cletus_Spuckler wrote:From my build post:
still_stirrin wrote:
For you, I believe the 12mm marbles would be better for 2 reasons....

still_stirrin wrote:These are what I use: https://www.hobbylobby.com/Floral-Weddi ... 4mm/p/3504

SS.. You stated that 12mm size marbles would be best for a 2" column.. then you posted where you have bought yours from.. but those are 14mm size..

So the question is what size are you using, 12 or 14mm.. because the site does not have 12mm for sale..

Mars
StillerBoy
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 608
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby Rod » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:49 pm

I got mine from

https://www.koch.com.au/location-trading-hours

13 mm

what's a mm between friends

Rod
The Friendly Spirit
User avatar
Rod
Swill Maker
 
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:28 pm
Location: Aussie

Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Postby Cletus_Spuckler » Tue May 01, 2018 2:27 am

Rod, that's the best price I have come across for AU so far. $115 delivered for 18kg. So thanks! I'm still hoping I can get them cheaper. Know anyone around these parts that makes SPP? :D
My 4" Modular Bubbler Build:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=69904

Welcome Centre:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=69903
User avatar
Cletus_Spuckler
Novice
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:10 pm
Location: strayya / knew zelund

Previous

Return to Research and Theory



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests