Breakfast Cereals

[Alphadog007]

I got ahold of a ton of organic, health breakfast cereals that are (mostly) all natural. They seem that they would be completing (alone) but I would/could add white or brown sugar if necessary. I plan to bring to boil two (same) boxes of cereal for a 5 gallon mash believing they already have the enzymes, vitamins, and nutrients for the eventual EC1118. I've read all the posts in this section and can verify that any/all flour are grain flours and to allow for a vigorous ferment. Below are 5 of the 15 kinds of cereals I acquired. What am I missing? What can you suggest?

#1) Organic 'corn puffs' - Ingredients: Whole grain corn meal, corn meal, cane sugar, and sea salt.

#2) Organic 'crunchy maple' - Ingredients: Whole grain corn meal, cane sugar, brown rice flour, corn meal, yellow corn flour, inulin, quinoa, maple syrup, flax seeds, natural maple flavor, buckwheat flour, sea salt, amaranth, molasses, tocopherols (vitamin E).

#3) Organic 'naked' - Ingredients: Whole burgundy sorghum, rice, whole wheat, toasted coconut almond granola clusters (whole oats, cane sugar, brown rice syrup, toasted coconut, whole oat flour. almonds, quinoa, expeller pressed sunflower oil, brown rice flour, molasses, salt, rosemary extract for freshness) toasted coconut, cane sugar, whole oats, sea salt, rosemary extract for freshness.

#4) Organic 'hemp granola' - Ingredients: Rolled oats, cane sugar, soy oil, brown rice flour, flax seeds, hemp seeds, oat syrup solids )oat syrup solids, tocopherols) sea salt, molasses.

#5) Organic 'pumpkin granola' - Ingredients: Rolled oats, cane sugar, soy oil, brown rice flour, pumpkin seeds, flax seeds, oat srup solids (oat syrup solids, tocopherols) sea salt, molasses.

Most of the ingredients are similar but some random various additional ingredients are: wheat bran, honey, vanilla flavor, gelatin, yellow corn grits, invert cane syrup, soy lecithin, canola oil, chocolate chips, cocoa, yogurt chunks, rice starch, freeze dried blueberries/berry blend/strawberries/raspberies, chia seeds, degerminated yellow corn meal, oat fiber, expeller pressed canola oil, concord grape juice concentrate, apple powder, vegetable glycerin, and raspberry/strawberry puree concentrate.

Lastly, regular Cheerios; and a pasta noodle with Ingredients: All-organic spouted wheat, sprouted barley, spouted millet, sprouted lentils, sprouted soybeans, and sprouted spelt.

I know this is a long post. Cost would normally be prohibitive except all this stuff was past 'expiration' or 'best if used by' dates. Thanks in advance for any comments!

[NZChris]

Look up Rad's All Bran.

I have done a mixed breakfast cereal using the UJSSM method. It worked well, oaked well, and I used it mostly in Baileys style liqueurs.

Boiling is probably a mistake.

Unless you really believe they are a good match, don't mix different boxes in the fermenter as mistakes are not easily undone. You can blend the different makes later, even after aging.

[Teddysad]

Where do you see the enzymes coming from. Unless there are malted grains in there, you will not be turning the cereal starches into the fermentable sugars.
You will have to A) add enzymes (liquid hitemp are best) and run through the correct process or
B) add sugar and use the grains for flavouring/ nutrients and treat as standard cereal mash as per All-bran and many others.

Your third option would be to use a yeast with included enzyme.

[still_stirrin]

Remember this thread: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p7307996

Brings back memories.
ss

[Skipper1953]

Using a processed breakfast cereal, even if it contains malted grains, you are not likely to have any enzymes that will do anything to convert starches to sugar. Any enzymes that may have been present will most likely have been denatured by the heat used during processing. If there are any present, you will denature them if you boil your mash. Plan on using some malt or liquid enzymes.

[Alphadog007]

Poster's update: Okay, so I (generally) followed Rad's (Gerber) recipe with the organic breakfast cereals. Bringing to boil the cereal, adding sugar, then adding 6 row malted barley at 170 degrees. Cooled overnight then added yeast. A whopping 1.1 OG/SG and the yeast took off REALLY strong but then virtually stopped at 1.09 after a week. Another, similar batch had the 1.1 OG/SG and was still going strong at 1.06 after a week (so far). Do I just wait out for the lower FG, add more yeast (which I did), or something else? I'm reading a lot where many don't want their OG/SG over 1.07 due to time and congeners. Thoughts?

[still_stirrin]

...then adding 6 row malted barley at 170 degrees. Cooled overnight then added yeast. A whopping 1.1 OG/SG and the yeast took off REALLY strong but then virtually stopped at 1.09 after a week....Thoughts?

Putting malted barley in a 170*F bath will completely denature all of its enzymes....and quickly...within a few minutes. I bet you measured a lot of non-fermentable material in your wash and therefore you really only had a little bit of fermentables in it. Repitching fresh yeast won't do you any good. It's done! And there's not much alcohol in it either.
ss

[fizzix]

Here's a handy chart I refer to. You can see the trend to 170°F results in quick denaturing as still_stirrin said.

[Alphadog007]

Okay, I read at least a dozen posts stating 170 degrees was the barley temp. That sucks.

So how do I 'restart' the batch? Add some correct temped barley?

[rgreen2002]

Like SS was saying... I don't think there is anything to "restart". Most likely the SG was high due to unferemtnables in the wash so the small change you did get (1.1 to 1.06) was probably due to the cane sugar you mentioned in the ingredients. It's like a sugar wash with less sugar.

I always found that unless you're using some wildly flavorful cereal (see Froot Loops above) the breakfast cereal did not carry over flavor. What it did do was prevent pH crashes of my sugarhead washes. Rad's All-Bran makes one of the best neutrals I make, Deathwish Wheat germ recipe was similar. This is just my experience.

As far as temps for grain conversions go this has always been my go to graph:

Gelatinization temps

[still_stirrin]

Okay, I read at least a dozen posts stating 170 degrees was the barley temp. That sucks.

So how do I 'restart' the batch? Add some correct temped barley?

Gelatinizing corn is done at a higher temperature (probably what you read). But all alpha and beta amylase enzymes denature around 160-165*F.

In fact, when brewing beer I “mash out” at 165*F for 15 minutes to stop all enzyme activity to retain body in the beer when fermented. And as the sparge water gets to 170*F, it’ll start to wash tanins out of the barley husks which will make the finished beer astringent and “dusty” tasting.

So, I advise going to do some reading on mashing grains, including corn. There is a great (technical) link on mashing in my signature...start there. Read it a few times...it helps to understand better.

What to do with your beer? Well, get some liquid gluco-amylase enzymes and put in the proper amount (0.36ml/lb. of mashed grains) and swirl it into the ferment. Don’t stir it aggressively...just agitate slowly to homogenize gently....at this time you don’t want to oxygenate the wash.

The gluco-amylase will begin to reduce the non-fermentable sugars to fermentable. But, at fermentation temperatures it will be a slow process. Do not heat the wash as that will kill the yeast in it...just let the enzymes work at the ferment temperatures...which they will.

Doing this will allow fermentation of any non-fermentable sugars you have in the wash, which could be significant. Also, dissolved starches will be reduced and made fermentable too...but this will take time. It won’t ferment dry in days...more likely it will take weeks...so be patient with it.

Otherwise, dump it...and start over...and chalk this up to “learning”.
ss

[Alphadog007]

Poster's update: First, thanks guys. Second, I've ordered and waiting for the liquid gluco-amylase enzymes. Third, while I'm waiting to try and recover the mash, help me understand: We all agree I cooked the enzymes to death ... but assuming the dissolved sugar was sufficient, can't I just add some additional (properly prepared) barley or tomato paste ... and some new yeast? Then with the pot still I can get the alcohol from the sugar and the push/taste from the cereal flavor?

[NZChris]

It's hard enough trying to make good liquor from one protocol at a time, so why try to complicate it by trying to do two at the same time in the same fermenter?

Breakfast cereal can be used to make very nice UJSSM style liquor without any of the complications from boiling, conversion, mashing, etc.

[bilgriss]

You already have a ton of nutrients from the vitamins added to the cereals. No need for tomato paste.
If you really want to try to finish this ferment, maybe warm it up (if it's cool this time of year) and pitch some tolerant yeast. Maybe some champagne yeast. Don't add more sugar or malt if you started at 1.1. That's already pretty much pushing the upper boundary. It's also possible that the pH might have dropped very low in a high gravity sugar wash. You'd need a buffer if that's the case.

Use the search, Luke.