Dunder Pit Safety

[Single Malt Yinzer]

With the more common use of Dunder Pits we should understand the safety aspects of using them. This thread is for research into their safe use. Please post up any questions or research you have. I will update the Wiki to include the latest information.

Wiki: https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/index.ph ... Pit_Safety" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

General Rules:

* Once a Dunder pit is left open to be infected it should be considered unsafe for direct human consumption without further processing.
* Fermentations that use infected Dunder should be considered unsafe for direct human consumption without further processing.
* It is not yet known if distillation will render the distillate or stillage fully safe though no known negative effects have been reported.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

From another thread (Thanks LWTCS): http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0380.x/pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow - Microbial flora of rum fermentation media

[OtisT]

* Fermentations that use infected Dunder should be considered unsafe for direct human consumption without further processing.

Oops! Guess I should have read this before tasting my ferment (for sweetness) this morning. I'm running my first ferment with live infection, where I did not boil my backset first, and have been thinking about this very subject the last two days. Guess I may want to stop tasting and just measure more often if I am curious.

I sure hope no alien is growing in me right now, but if one bursts out of my chest anytime soon you folks know I will take pics and post about it here first. Otis

[BlackStrap]

Haha OtisT... Just imagine how much you've strengthened your immune system.
Ever wonder how they came up with what mushrooms are good to eat and which ones aren't?

[Single Malt Yinzer]

I should have written this a long time ago. I'm one of the ones that have encouraged its use so I should be responsible for safe usage practices.

[jonnys_spirit]

Would boiling and sterilizing a test sample of a live infected wash specifically for tasting be safe?

Thx,
j

[Single Malt Yinzer]

So my biggest worry is Botulism toxin from Clostridium botulinum. It is incredibly deadly at low levels. It is common and hardy to heat and cold. Luckily for us it seams to be of low concern to us once distilled:

Although the spores are highly resistant to heat, the toxin is rendered harmless when exposed to a temperature of at least 85°C for 5 minutes.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/ve ... inum-toxin" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Would boiling and sterilizing a test sample of a live infected wash specifically for tasting be safe?

Thx,
j

I am not going to say yes as I don't know. That is something that should be tested scientifically by people that know what they are doing.

[cede]

Clostridium botulinum grows under certain circumstances and is a risk when you can your food. But in food caning if something goes wrong, you'll know it, and most of the time the pH is taken low.
At low pH the risk of infection is lowered as I read.
Well, we must distinct 2 things: spores and toxin.
Spores require hotter that boiling point of water to be killed > 250˚F / 121˚C, while toxins can be destroyed at lower temperatures >185˚F / 85˚C for 5 minutes or more, or lower in temp but longer in time.

Honey can contains spores, that's why it's not safe for babies. Toxins can be developed in their gut.
Potatoes baked in aluminium can help germinate spores.
Garlic can also develop toxins.
Those spores are everywhere around us and if we help them a bit, they can develop toxins.

I'm not sure the dunder pit would be the best place for toxins to develop as it should be low pH and some other bacterias would proliferate at first place and would not let place for clostridium botulinum.
I don't think there's a great biohazard risk but I'm no expert at all, and the best would be to take a sample to a lab for analysis.

[butterpants]

This thread makes me happy. Good things to be pondering.

[Mike6090]

So how long should I wait before I add the goat head? Is fresh dead ok or Should it be left in the sun to rot for a day or week?

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Put the goat head on a stake above the pit. The pieces will fall in when they are ready.

On a more serious note I think that meat is one of the no go things to put in a pit. So no goat heads, no matter how tempting.

[durty_dunderpants]

glad you started this thread, it's something i've considered a lot - especially as i don't have a nice out of the way place to leave it where i can keep the temperature warm enough... spent so many a night scraping online for info on things like c. botulinium and others i should really be able to write a chemistry dissertation!!! in the end i've gone with the standard "it's worked for others so what the hell"

guess i'm still not clear on all bacteria habits. i know i wouldn't drink the muck, or let it contact with open wounds at least.

some possible questions for those that know for sure:

differentiate spores and toxins... as i understand it the bacteria produces toxins as it reproduces? and it's the toxins not the spores that are the danger?
so i know in cede's example honey isn't recommended for babies as it contains spores... is this because babies immune systems cannot destroy the spores before they produce toxins?
if we were to consume spores is that an issue with certain bacteria? if so which?
how to spores transmit? in the air i think? what about toxins? i'm thinking in relation to not tasting the muck... but sniffing it, or even being around it too often...

I'm not sure the dunder pit would be the best place for toxins to develop as it should be low pH and some other bacterias would proliferate at first place and would not let place for clostridium botulinum.

true about the bacteria, but muckpits are specifically treated to raise pH to get the bacteria working. is c.botulinun known to be a weaker bacteria compared to others or do you mean if it is not added intentionally? your knowledge is appreciated!

[butterpants]

glad you started this thread, it's something i've considered a lot - especially as i don't have a nice out of the way place to leave it where i can keep the temperature warm enough... spent so many a night scraping online for info on things like c. botulinium and others i should really be able to write a chemistry dissertation!!! in the end i've gone with the standard "it's worked for others so what the hell"

guess i'm still not clear on all bacteria habits. i know i wouldn't drink the muck, or let it contact with open wounds at least.

some possible questions for those that know for sure:

differentiate spores and toxins... as i understand it the bacteria produces toxins as it reproduces? and it's the toxins not the spores that are the danger?
so i know in cede's example honey isn't recommended for babies as it contains spores... is this because babies immune systems cannot destroy the spores before they produce toxins?
if we were to consume spores is that an issue with certain bacteria? if so which?
how to spores transmit? in the air i think? what about toxins? i'm thinking in relation to not tasting the muck... but sniffing it, or even being around it too often...

I'm not sure the dunder pit would be the best place for toxins to develop as it should be low pH and some other bacterias would proliferate at first place and would not let place for clostridium botulinum.

true about the bacteria, but muckpits are specifically treated to raise pH to get the bacteria working. is c.botulinun known to be a weaker bacteria compared to others or do you mean if it is not added intentionally? your knowledge is appreciated!

The toxins referred to here are generally small-ish protien products that biologically interfere with other life and cause deleterious effects. The bacteria use them to assist in outcompeting other life on certain substrates/growth environments.

It's like me spraying a pesticide down in an area that I want to go camping on. Kill everything off so nothing bothers my fun.

Spores are a reproductive method of survival. They are usually very hardy and can withstand extended periods of heat and dessication.

These are like little super egg babies that only wake up when conditions are right for growth but you have to go through extreme methods to kill

[Shine0n]

It's nice to see this type of thread, some know I love to play with the funk of my muck pits and have had great success with the addition of dunder to my spirit runs.

I now have 4 active pits going but I think 2 are lacto just because of the material added, Swiss cheese culture and malted barley.

One is 6 gallons with soil and potatoes and now my newest one is whatever the good lord put there (10gals)

der wo and I were on an infection kick a good part of last year, he kept better notes and documented in detail of his experiments and of his findings and I... well I'm not that detailed but I did have nice results.

I know the risks and I'm pretty sure if I put my finger in the pits and taste I'll get sick as hell and I ain't gunna do it.

The one thing that stood out to me was the pellicle dropping once the ph had gotten into the 3.6 range and would only re appear after the ph was raised to above 4.8
with the right conditions. I did most of my really funky shit during the heat of summer playing around with ph levels, the rum is a fine sipper and I'll continue to use the dunder for my spirit runs trying to find the best ratios and for now it's at 25% muck to 75% low wines at 35%abv.

I'll keep a close eye on this thread and chime in as needed as I hope der wo will too because he's a freaking mad genius with this stuff and has the knowledge to share in detail more so than me.

Shine0n

[Reverend Newer]

Pressure cook some muck, then test it for safety of taste'n.

I wonder about Candida albicans infections, that shit is the bane of human health so keep that in mind.

[Shine0n]

I don't wish any harm on anyone and I take every precaution I know in the distillation process but as everyone knows, shits happens!!! I just pray I don't have to be the one found dead because of malpractice of my own doing.
der wo has kindly posted in his and my threads of links about infections and the reasoning and I've read them but I'm not educated enough to understand the most of it so I use the dictionary ALOT so I know what the hell I'm doing. At least I hope so but so far so good.

I will say that if someone wants to start a muck pit to do plenty of research. I have and I know quite a bit although I can't even pronounce half the shit I know about. lol

Its not worth loosing life trying to replicate a spirit or myth of one. A little research will go a long way and if I can make a rum like this... anyone can who is willing to do the homework and really try to understand the reasoning of what their trying to accomplish.

I'll say this in closing, the myth of if it smells bad don't run it is so far off, expecially with rum because my muck smells of vomit but when mixed with low wines it turns to pineapple. Even the lacto that smells like super sour milk, when ran through the still makes a really fine rum.

Please folks, do ALOT of research before playing with muck pits and such. If you know the planned infection, the results can be rewarding but if doing something on a whim because you read the first few lines of a study then you might be flirting with disaster.

Be safe as it very rewarding!
Shine0n

[AlChemE]

I thought this was worth sharing. It's a short read. After having some concern over accidentally creating mycotoxins in a dunder pit and then concentrating them in the product further from distillation, I came across this article. According to this study, mycotoxins do not carry over into the distillate of a "unpolluted barley shochu mash (that) was spiked with 13 mycotoxins to cause it to be artificially contaminated". However, everyone has a different still, method and ingredients that could cause different results than these.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.110639" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[kiwi Bruce]

So my biggest worry is Botulism toxin from Clostridium botulinum.

Botulism toxin is destroyed at 176F (80C)...so no sweat
"The botulinum toxin itself is inactivated (denatured) rapidly at temperatures greater than 80°C ." from https://www.fsai.ie/faq/botulism.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow