High Ester Rum

[OtisT]

Gen 2 Ferment @ 13 hours

Already this is bubbling faster and stronger than my previous ferment was at 24 hours. I think this faster start may be because this new yeast has a higher desired temp range and I am fermenting more than 10 deg F hotter than Gen 1. I will be able to compare conversion rates at 48 hours in.

@ 13 hours:
My temp is up to 86 F, from a low of 85 F about 6 hours ago.
Lots of bubbles, lots of CO2 in the barrel
PH has dropped a little from 5.6 to 5.3
SG has barely moved, from 11 03 to 10 97. No surprise at this early stage in yeast development.

I finally read the entire data sheet on this new yeast (after buying it and under-pitching because I plan to pitch a second yeast) and realize I likely would not need a second pitch of a different yeast. I plan to pitch the second yeast anyway because I intentionally under pitched this one. Oops! At least by also pitching some bakers with this run, it will more closely match Gen 1 and I can more definitively compare the effects of this Belle Saison to the Safebrew WB-06 I used last time. This Belle Saison yeast says it like to ferment relatively hot, will tolerate up to 15% ABV, and should finish dry in 4 days. Damn!

Otis

PS. The house smells so nice right now.

[zapata]

I like the idea of mixing dunder into low wines for storage, you are adding up lots of "little" things like that , should make for a very unique and nuanced brew. Sounds fun!

[distiller_dresden]

Hey Otis any reason you used potassium carbonate to lower acidity instead of calcium hydroxide, some effect on the mash or ferment that you knew ahead of time, or something to do with lime, or was pot-ca just what you use instead of cal-hy, and it doesn't make a difference?

I'm using your experiences as a model for when I get back to my rum in a month or so and so I'm planning on what I'll need to get - I need to get something to lower acidity quickly

[OtisT]

Hey Otis any reason you used potassium carbonate to lower acidity instead of calcium hydroxide, some effect on the mash or ferment that you knew ahead of time, or something to do with lime, or was pot-ca just what you use instead of cal-hy, and it doesn't make a difference?

My reasoning for using it is very unscientific. It is what the local brew shop had on hand for raising PH. I tried it and liked how it performed, so I use it now. Not sure if/what it does to my flavor profile. Has not ruined anything yet, as far as I can tell.

Otis.

[distiller_dresden]

How is the ferment roiling?

[zapata]

I'm sure you know it otis, but potassium carbonate raises ph. (It does of course lower acidity the way Dresden phrased it.) Just commenting for any future readers.

[OtisT]

I'm sure you know it otis, but potassium carbonate raises ph. (It does of course lower acidity the way Dresden phrased it.) Just commenting for any future readers.

Yes. thanks for clarifying that. Just a momentary lapse in logic on my part. Good Catch. I was able to edit/correct the mentioned post. Otis

[butterpants]

There are issues using the sodium version of carbonate, sulfate or chloride due to a salty taste emerging in your beer but for distilling purposes, I think the point is moot.

[distiller_dresden]

Hey Otis what do you think of this

White Labs Cabernet Red Liquid Yeast White Labs

WLP 760

Species : Wine
Fermentation Temp Range (°F) : 60-90
Apparent Attenuation Range (%) : 80-100
Flocculation : Low
Alcohol Tolerance : up to 15%

Pitching/Fermentation : High temperature tolerance. Moderate fermentation speed.

Notes : Excellent for full-bodied red wines, ester production complements flavor.

[OtisT]

Dresden, I don't know. Have not tried that type before, but give it a try. Good that it is high ABV tolerant. Personally, I would ferment in the top of that temp range.

Good Luck.

[OtisT]

HER Gen 2 - Ferment Complete

Here is the raw data.

Hours Temp PH SG ABV Notes
0 88 5.6 11 03 0.0 Pitched 44 g Belle Saison
13 86 5.3 10 97 0.8 fast bubbling
18 92 5.1 10 92 1.4 rolling bubbles (super fast)
24 102 4.75 10 65 4.9 fast bubbling
37 90 4.75 10 43 7.7 medium bubbling
41 90 4.75 10 40 8.13 Add Dunder (6L infected, 4.45PH)
Add 40g BRM Yeast rehydrated into 1 gal H2O. stir.
44 86 4.75 10 40 8.13 med bubbles
48 86 barely bubbling. It looks done
96 ?? 10 37 8.5 done done. No activity for days

I have decided that the second pitch is a PITA. In the future I plan to stick to yeast (high ester producing yeast) proven to finish well rather than add a second yeast. I think mucking with the second pitch was what stopped this ferment, by introducing too much Oxygen with the fresh yeast. Adding dunder was a non-event, but adding the rehydrated yeast released tons of bubbles from the ferment. I think there was way too much O in the new yeast starter and that was bad for the yeast already there.

I like the yeast I just used and next time I will simply pitch more up front and call it good. My Bad!

Luckily, I followed BadMotivator’s advice and did not 2nd pitch or add dunder until I was happy with the ABV I had already achieved in the ferment.

I now have 33 gallons of ferment at 8.5 ABV. Smells/looks normal (wonderful).

Otis

[EDIT - Sorry. That table of data looks nice in edit mode. Weird!]

[distiller_dresden]

Can't wait to read about the cook and notes from the worm!

[OtisT]

HER Gen 2 Strip and Dunder Care


Stripping
The Strips went off w/o a hitch. I did a slow warmup on each, taking approx one hour to start the boil. I had copper bits in my boiler as a catalyst for any Fischer esterification that may be happening. Once a batch reached boiling I cranked up the heat and stripped them fast and hot at 5500 Watts. The strip rate at 5500W is 6 minutes/liter. (I did a brief test and determined that 3500W takes 10 minutes/liter.) My 33 gallons of wash resulted in 33 Liters of low wines with an average ABV of 33%. (Are there any numerologist on HD who can tell me what all those 3s mean?)

Once again, I was teased by a wonderful banana aroma throughout my low wines. Sadly, I know it will not last.

Dunder Care
The first two strips used clear ferment (siphoned off of the top) while the third strip included all the yeast trubb and muck from the bottom of my ferment barrel. [I did not notice any difference in the last batch of low wines versus the first two "clear" batches.] As suggested, I took my dunder this time from this mucky run. I saved 4.5 gallons of dunder and I put this dunder into a clean carboy. I do not intend to infect this batch, as I have some tests planned for my next rum that do not involve using infected dunder. I did save a quart of infected dunder from the old pit, as a starter for my next infection. Because I am not infecting this batch of dunder, I am also not adjusting PH up in my dunder like I would normally do to encourage infection growth.

Otis

[OtisT]

HER Gen 2 - Spirit Run

Distillation Mode
After doing some research on other threads I find that many rum makers think having Dunder only one distillation away from the finished product is too close for their tastes. My previous rums have been pot stilled, and I used a small amount of dunder in the charge, ~10%. While I really liked my last rum, I decided that on this batch I would clean my spirit up a bit with some light fractioning so I can compare these results with my pot stilled Gen 1 rum. This spirit run charge will has about 15% dunder in it.

I'm using my 2" fractioning VM short column still. I placed two roles of copper mesh in my column for this run and planned to use only a light reflux. Even with my 3/4" VM gate valve open full, I knew I would need to starve my reflux condenser a bit to get a low reflux ratio and force a descent production rate.

Spirit Run Results

HER Gen 2 Spirit Run.pdf

Spirit Run Stats

(468.71 KiB) Downloaded 296 times

Warmup
I did a one hour warm up with Cu bits in the boiler. I heated it up quickly at full power then backed off to around 800W for the remainder of the time

Foreshots
I pulled foreshots at about 1 drip/sec for 90 minutes. I was not getting good separation at first and think maybe my reflux was not hitting the center of my packing. I started at 11 A (1230 W) yet my column temp was only 166 F. I backed power down one amp at a time until I landed on ~7.5 A/650 W for a column temp of 163, which is where I ran for most of the time.

Some Foreshots Collection Math
Last time I calculated efficiency, I found my boiler was roughly 70% efficient (based on time from cold to boil. HD Calcs page.)

Power(A) / Power (W) / 70% Power (W) / Vapor Speed (in/s) / Column Temp (F)
11A / 1230W / 861W / 12.5"/s / 166 F
9A / 850W / 595W / 8.8"/s / 165 F
8A / 700W / 490W / 7.3"/s / 164 F
7.5A / 650W / 455W / 6.6"/s / 163 F

Main Run
I landed on 13Amps/1800 Watts with a starved reflux condenser and my VP wide open to get a ratio around 2:1 to 3:1. In the end, my ABV was roughly 10% higher than what I normally get pot stilling a similar charge.

Airing
Airing has begun. I will report back in three days on my cuts.

[distiller_dresden]

First, Otis, tell me you didn't sample anything from the worm at all, nothing? Come ON man... Even if it isn't really indicative I can't believe you weren't tempted.

Second, I don't know what your rig is but you and maybe everyone might be running wAYYYY more Farscape to my original series Trek... I have a 5 gallon copper pot still, a 1 gallon thump keg, and copper tubing, then my heat source is a propane tank. I couldn't possibly produce any of these kinds of information, other than the temperature in the middle of my still (liquid). I usually get my still up to temp and the worm dripping within an hour to an hour and ten minutes though, and then I slow her down good.

Usually charge my thump with 32oz of liquid before I run, that's my joker card for any run. Anybody feel free to submit tips RE thumper and rums.

But man I'm dying to hear about flavor notes on this batch/cook of your rum...

[OtisT]

First, Otis, tell me you didn't sample anything from the worm at all, nothing? Come ON man... Even if it isn't really indicative I can't believe you weren't tempted.

Second, I don't know what your rig is but you and maybe everyone might be running wAYYYY more Farscape to my original series Trek... I have a 5 gallon copper pot still, a 1 gallon thump keg, and a worm with copper tubing running through/connecting everything, then my heat source is a propane tank and a camp cooker setup thingy you can buy at the outdoorsy type stores. I couldn't possibly produce any of these kinds of numbers or information, other than the temperature in the middle of my still (liquid) when I'm cooking as I have a thermometer that slides into a slot/hole that's set to deep into the middle of her. No vapor/head thermo, or parrot or anything else. I usually get my still up to temp and the worm dripping within an hour to an hour and ten minutes though, and then I slow her down good.

Usually charge my thump with 32oz of liquid before I run, that's my joker card for any run. Plus, I can run a full 5 gal in my pot because it's got a tall collar up to a vertical neck so I've never had any issue with bubbling/whatchacallit (coughing, I know the word but the brain won't spit it out at the moment). Anybody feel free to submit tips to me in one of my threads or PM me, I just started in Jan, and I'm a humble cook.

But man I'm dying to hear about flavor notes on this batch/cook of your rum...

Lots of nice smells, but nothing surprising that made me look closer at this time. With so many jars and recording everything as I went, there was no time to dilute samples for tasting. Any urge I had to sample was met with a fresh glass of my white rum on ice from my previous batch.

Making good spirits is a long game, so no sense rushing the cuts. A few days of airing will allow some of the nastier smells/tastes to evaporate off and make sampling much more enjoyable and more accurate/productive. When I do cuts, I most often do the process twice. My first pass is on undiluted jars and by nose only, and I simply make notes on smells and where I think cuts should be. Then I wait another 24 hours and do a more in depth process involving dilution of samples and then smell/taste samples before making any final decisions. On my second pass, I typically only dilute samples that are near my previous first pass (nose only) cut. You will have to wait 3+ days to hear how this batch turned out.

Don't bother trying to compare any of my stats/measures to what you do. You have a PotnThumper and I have a fractioning column. Two different animals, neither being better or worse, just different. I record the level of details I do to help me learn, remember, and prepare for future runs.

Be patient and in a few day's I'll share the results of my cut process. Otis

[distiller_dresden]

What do you do with your hearts jars you don't use? I have 'hearts' jars for rum and corn, big 2.5-3 gallon barrel shaped jars I got at Kroger. Once I make cuts and come up with a solid batch, the rest of my heads and tails get dumped together for a future run, the rest of my hearts get dumped into my rum or corn 'hearts' jar, which when it has enough I'll then drop some wood into, and say for rum a vanilla bean and a satchel with a few naturally dried apricots, prunes, dark and gold raisins, part of an orange peel, some panella, (when I say 'few' I mean 3-4 of each for at least 1.5 gallons of 120 rum hearts) and then let it sit for a month.

That's turned out beautiful for me once, looking forward to my next batch, I know it's kind of a 'cheat' way to make complex rum, but I don't include enough of anything to pick out any individual fruit tastes.

[OtisT]

What do you do with your hearts jars you don't use? I have 'hearts' jars for rum and corn, big 2.5-3 gallon barrel shaped jars I got at Kroger. Once I make cuts and come up with a solid batch, the rest of my heads and tails get dumped together for a future run, the rest of my hearts get dumped into my rum or corn 'hearts' jar, which when it has enough I'll then drop some wood into, and say for rum a vanilla bean and a satchel with a few naturally dried apricots, prunes, dark and gold raisins, part of an orange peel, some panella, (when I say 'few' I mean 3-4 of each for at least 1.5 gallons of 120 rum hearts) and then let it sit for a month.

That's turned out beautiful for me once, looking forward to my next batch, I know it's kind of a 'cheat' way to make complex rum, but I don't include enough of anything to pick out any individual fruit tastes.

Hearts that don't get used? Ha!

Look back to see what I did with Gen 1 of my HER. Stay tuned to see what I will do with this Gen 2 of my HER Otis

[distiller_dresden]

Oh boy did I misunderstand with my fast read thru... I have a 5 gallon still, so I don't get more than a gallon total off the worm, you can do the math... I typically do my cuts making a 'sweet' pot that is the core of my favorites from my hearts jars, often not all of all my favorites, I guess 'pretending' I'm carefully blending like a centuries old scotch distillery. Then the rest/leftovers of my hearts hit the hearts jar, and I typically have a half gallon give/take of 90 proof sweet pot from whatever the batch I just did was. Since I don't have any 'fans' or my friends all across the country, nowhere near, I'm on my lonesome and I'm stacking up liquor lol.

I see what you did now though!

[OtisT]

Somehow, I screwed up the cut. It's been a while since I screwed the pooch on cuts, so I guess I was due.

I thought all was well with my cut and I diluted the whole thing down to 62% for my barrel. Beautiful. I took a small amount and diluted that to 40% for drinking white, and I got the Dreaded Blue Distillate. Mother Fu@*&@! I tasted the mix again and am getting more bitter taste than I recall getting while making cuts, I can only assume I went too far into the bottoms. Just for a test I proofed the sample up until it was clear, at 42.5%.

Advice please......

My gut tells me to dilute the whole thing down (just my cuts) and do one more run, in my pot still this time. I've never re-distilled just cuts before (most Heads/Tails removed.) I am curious how the non-ethanol alcohols will be distributed throughout the next collection, and am concerned that I will be cutting out a lot of ethanol on the end just to get rid of what I believe to be a little amount of bottoms. Maybe I can't avoid that.

An alternative would be to run the whole thing again in pot still mode and to start compressing just before the tails hit. That may be more work/risk than it is worth.

Thought or recommendations on how to re-run this? I'm just a little too upset now to trust my gut, and thought I would ask for some help.

Thanks. Otis

[distiller_dresden]

I found this

"To recover "blue distillate":
Add from 5 to 10g of citric acid per liter of blue distillate. This will react with the ammonia and produce ammonium citrate. This will precipitate out along with the copper.
Use a coffee filter to remove the precipitated crystals from the alcohol. If the alcohol remain blue, add just enough citric acid until it clears. If the alcohol smells a bit like "rotten eggs" afterwards, re-distill it with clean copper scrubbers to get rid of the H2S (that formed during the chemical process). "

Same article said, sure u know, had excess nitro in the wash unused by the yeast?

[zapata]

I don't think that's what he means by blue. That blue is like a bright cobalt blue as freakin blue gets.
I'm guessing he's got a hazy / cloudy blue-ish from stuff coming out of suspension on dilution.

Otis, did you see the thread on cellulose adsorbing haze a month or so back? I played with it just a bit, and there is something to it. I didn't get perfectly definitive results, because I drank all the cloudy whiskey! But there was at least some improvement on some samples. If it tastes good and you just want to get rid of the haze, try letting a sample sit on some tissue paper and see if it clears up.

[der wo]

If you decide to rerun it, think carefully about diluting. The more you dilute the finer the taste will be. Nothing wrong with that. But don't expect a really strong taste after you have diluted it.

If you have feints, I would pour them into your hearts before distilling. If not, you will probably be able to run the boiler almost dry without cutting tails. If your still is heated with an element, you have to dilute.

Are you sure, that the product condenser wasn't dirty?
Just for sure I would acidify the Rum before redistilling.

[OtisT]

I don't think that's what he means by blue. That blue is like a bright cobalt blue as freakin blue gets.
I'm guessing he's got a hazy / cloudy blue-ish from stuff coming out of suspension on dilution.

Otis, did you see the thread on cellulose adsorbing haze a month or so back? I played with it just a bit, and there is something to it. I didn't get perfectly definitive results, because I drank all the cloudy whiskey! But there was at least some improvement on some samples. If it tastes good and you just want to get rid of the haze, try letting a sample sit on some tissue paper and see if it clears up.

Correct, I have a bluish haze like you see in the bottoms, but not so cloudy.

I'll check out that thread on tissue paper/cellulose. I do vaguely remember it, but since I have not had this issue in a while I did not commit to memory.

I may not go this route, considering I now detect bitter in my product. Not sure how I missed that when tasting for cuts, but I know I need to spend more time tasting next time, and maybe taste those last cut jars twice.

Thanks,
Otis

[OtisT]

If you decide to rerun it, think carefully about diluting. The more you dilute the finer the taste will be. Nothing wrong with that. But don't expect a really strong taste after you have diluted it.

Ya, this is why I am so upset. Loosing flavor after doing everything I could to to create and keep flavor is disappointing. But looking on the bright side, this should make some fine white rum.

If you have feints, I would pour them into your hearts before distilling. If not, you will probably be able to run the boiler almost dry without cutting tails. If your still is heated with an element, you have to dilute.

Yes, I have my feints. Are you referring to both Heads and Tails, or just Tails. Makes sense putting them back and re-distilling to separate again so that I retain more flavor. If I go this route, I may leave out the first jar as well as a few of the last ones, just to clean it up a bit. I already diluted my 80% ABV cut down to 62%, and adding 80% ABV feints to that means I would be near 70% ABV. I could use my old hotplate and boiler pan for this so I don't need to dilute further. I may go this route. I will likely just pot still this last run.

Are you sure, that the product condenser wasn't dirty?
Just for sure I would acidify the Rum before redistilling.

It was clean before I started, and also 4 liters of 85%+ heads went through it before anything that made the cut, so I am very sure that was not the cause.

Thanks Der Wo. Otis

[der wo]

Diluting cleans the tails, not the heads. And high ester is about heads. You loose depth and aftertaste, not fruit.

I would use the heads and tails again, fores perhaps not. But without heads it's good too I think.

It's an inofficial rule here, not to have more than 40% in the boiler. IMO in a few cases a bad rule. The cases I mean are the spirit run of triple distilled aromatic spirits and repair runs.

[distiller_dresden]

Hey Otis, could the blue have been formed and hung around in the background then showed up from the DAP and the copper in your carboy during ferment? The N and the copper interacting during that process?

[OtisT]

Hey Otis, could the blue have been formed and hung around in the background then showed up from the DAP and the copper in your carboy during ferment? The N and the copper interacting during that process?

I am fairly certain it is oil and not some copper reaction. It looks like what you see in mid tails jars of a pot still run, just less cloudy white so you can see the blue of the oil.

[OtisT]

Diluting cleans the tails, not the heads. And high ester is about heads. You loose depth and aftertaste, not fruit.

I would use the heads and tails again, fores perhaps not. But without heads it's good too I think.

All right, I see the logic and will use both heads and tails, and the fores were poured out already. This run had a lot of feints from previous runs put into it, so I have quite a bit of feints to pull out. I spent a lot of time compressing the heads in this so I think I will still keep jar 1 out of this next run.

It's an inofficial rule here, not to have more than 40% in the boiler. IMO in a few cases a bad rule. The cases I mean are the spirit run of triple distilled aromatic spirits and repair runs.

+1 on this. I was thinking the same thing, and in this case I just won't talk about it in detail here.

Thanks again for your help Der Wo. When my rum comes of age I'll be PMing you for an address to send a bottle to.

Otis

[ElCubanazo]

Diluting cleans the tails, not the heads. And high ester is about heads. You loose depth and aftertaste, not fruit.

Wait, so does that mean that if we recycle a tight cut of heads (like PugiRum "Rum Oils" in the tails) we'll get higher ester in the hearts?

Or is this a dumb assumption?