All grain advice

[Midwest]

I have a couple of Questions about my second all grain mash. First here was the method that I used.
60lb corn, Dent corn milled to coarse meal with Corona mill
12lb unmalted Rye milled fine
24 gallons water
6 gallons backset (or combo of water/backset to reach proper Ph)
30ml SEBamyl GL
30ml SEBstar HTL

Place 3 gallons of water in fermenter
Fill my spare Keggle electric boiler with 15 gallons of water.
Bring the temperature of the water to 180 degrees and add it to the fermenter.
Stir in the 60Lbs of corn and 12 lb rye
Adjust the Ph to 6-6.5
Add 30ml of SEBstar HTL
Raise the temperature of the mash to 190 with steam injector. Hold temperature at 190 degrees for 90 minutes. Stirring frequently.
After 90 minutes add backset, adjust the Ph of the mash down to 5 increasing total volume to 30 gallons. ( plus the aditional water added from the steam)
Cool mash to 145 degrees
Add 30ml SEBaml GL
Cover and insulate for 90 minutes Stir occasionally
Reduce temperature to 74 degrees
Pitch 3 packages (33.5 g) US-05 hydrated yeast..

After adding the Gluco Amalys and letting it work, I let the mash cool overnight. In the AM when I checked there was a 4” grain cap on it. I'm assuming there was some wild yeast in the grain that took hold. My suspicion is it was the Rye, as that was the only different gain I used this time. The first time I used malted rye but used the same corn. The temperature was still 98 degrees at this point so I let it continue to cool to 74 degrees then I aerated with my stir paddle and added 3 packages of re-hydrated US-05. I was hoping that this yeast would take over the mash. My issue are, the ferment seems to be real slow. It is bubbling but not at the rate that first all grain I did. Should I be concerned? Did the initial yeast consume to much nutrients, oxygen? The PH is 4.6 so that should not be an issue. My initial sg reading was 1.065. I don't know if I should leave it alone and hope it fully ferments or try and adding something to get the ferment going better. What do you think has caused the slow ferment? Should I have cold crashed it so the wild yeast does not get a chance to get a foothold?

Any information would be appreciated.

[ShineRunner]

That’s very similar to the protocol that I use for steaming.

Anyways, I would agree that you have wild yeast on your rye. It’s well known for this. I had similar issues with my last bag of rye and had to chill it. The ferment came out ok but did have an interesting flavor.

I think you need more yeast in there. I usually use those US05 packets at 5-7 gallons each, so you should have probably 5-6 in there. They’re also a slow starter, so you usually have a lag phase of at least 1 day. Couple that with underpitching and you’re behind the 8 ball for sure. The wild yeast will likely be out competed by the beer yeast, but maybe not if it’s already got a foothold and the US05 is just starting out. How long has it been?

In the future, yes, cold crash if possible. Definitely, if using rye. Pitch a strong yeast. Baker’s or DADY are strong and will outcompete just about anything. Or, have a starter with enough yeast cells ready to go. If I make a big batch with US05, I will usually make a beer beforehand and reuse the yeast for whiskey. It usually starts right up.

For this batch, depending on how long the US05 has had to work, I’d pitch some more in there. If it’s been a while, I’d say screw the 05 and get some baker’s yeast in there to take command and get your ferment going.

SR

[ShineRunner]

Also, here’s a great calculator for yeast pitching rates. I usually use the 0.75 rate for whiskeys.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pit ... alculator/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Looks like you pitched about 25% of the recommended yeast cells. Remember, this is all ideal, so I usually try to get at least 50-75% of their recommendations. Plus, you’ve got to take over the wild yeasties...

SR

[Twisted Brick]

I make up a gallon starter with the same mashbill I'm going to ferment. That way the yeasties are happy when they get pitched and show activity in 2-3hrs. 1 pitch one gallon per full keggle.

[Midwest]

I pitched the 05 sunday evening about 8:00. I do have some distillers yeast at home as well as 3 more packs of 05. At this point the 05 will have been in there for two full days by the time I get home. Would you recommend pitching more 05 at this point or throw in some DADY? I will use more yeast next time at the get go.

[Midwest]

Twisted, when you make the gallon starter do you just pull off a gallon of the wash before its at pitch temperature and rapid cool that for the starter. I assume you would hydrate the yeast and make a slurry before adding to the gallon as well?

[Midwest]

ShineRunner you said to chill the rye. Does that kill the wild yeast and if so are you talking freezing it or just chilling and at what temp?

[zapata]

I think he meant chill the mash after conversion so it isn't sitting for a long period of time allowing the wild yeast to get started. Chilling doesn't kill the wild yeast, just lets you get your chosen yeast chugging along first. Wild yeast are often poor competitors with low alcohol tolerance so pitched yeast usually overtake them given a fair start.

One thing to note going forward, there are probably several notable difference between pitching yeast starters into un aerated wash vs. pitching dry yeast and aerating. Most (all?) commercial distillers go with yeast starter cultures and don't aerate the wash. On a yeast competition front, not aerating the wash makes it less hospitable for wild yeasts to multiply and using a sufficient starter eliminates the lag phase to quickly overwhelm wild yeasts. On a flavor front, not aerating the wash should enhance the pitched yeast's ester production (assuming a sufficient yeast starter is pitched, which probably was aerated).

[Midwest]

Great information Zapata. On that thought then it would make sense to limiting the stirring during the mashing process?. I use a drywall mixer on a 1/2 inch drill during the mashing process and probably stir to much. I steam cooking so I really don't have to worry about scorching I just mix it up because I think I need to. So I should limit mixing, prepare a large starter yeast, cold crash the mash and pitch quicker. The excessive aeration and long cooling time appears to be my issue. Not to mention under pitching. Do you think I should pitch more yeast at this time?

[zapata]

I don't limit stirring for that reason, and don't think you need to. Maybe if you were really trying to manipulate yeast produced esters. And remember that gas solubility in liquids is inversely proportional to temperature. Temp goes up, O2 solubility goes down. Stir and mix as much as you need to for processing the mash, but especially if you use sufficient yeast starter no need to specifically try to aerate it.

Should you pitch more yeast now? Probably. Your 05 has been in there for 48 hours as of tonight, right? It should be past the lag phase and bubbling away. What is the temp, what's the fermentation looking like now, and has the gravity dropped? I often just leave a hydrometer in my washes, it's not precise with all the solids gasses and motion, but it is good for seeing relative sg drops. If it's bubbling away and dropping SG, I'd probably just leave it to do it's thing and save the $10 worth of yeast. If it really seems like it's not fermenting as much as it should then sure, add more yeast, it can't hurt. I will say I've never been a fan of DADY, but tbh you probably can't go wrong adding more 05 or DADY at this point.

[Midwest]

All I initially used was DADY with UJSSM and it seemed to ferment fine. Then came the all grain and I'm looking for flavor profile for good bourbon. Some of the reading I did here suggested the US-05 so I though I would give it a try. What is it you do not like about the DADY? Was it off flavor, ferment issues. I only ask so I can further my own personal knowledge not trying to be critical. My experience is limited I don't know yet how the different yeasts effect a final flavor profile.

To answer your last questions. I slipped home at lunch and it is bubbling but just not very aggressively, at least not what I am used too. The temperature is 68 degree in the vessel. I have it in the basement and the temperature there is consistent. I will put the hydrometer in and see if I can get a rough feeling for how the wort is doing before I make a final decision about adding more yeast.

[zapata]

I found DADY boring, not problematic. It could entirely be my susceptibility to exoticism and nerdiness. DADY just seems like something I would use if I ran a commercial alcohol factory. Results tasted the same way, I wasn't able to taste anything that made me say "that yum came from the yeast". But so much about perception does come from what we know and what we expect. So it's entirely possible I gave DADY an undeserved bad rap. It certainly never ruined anything for me, but didn't inspire me to buy more after I chewed through my last bag.

[Twisted Brick]

Twisted, when you make the gallon starter do you just pull off a gallon of the wash before its at pitch temperature and rapid cool that for the starter. I assume you would hydrate the yeast and make a slurry before adding to the gallon as well?

My routine is to make the starter up 2 days prior to mash day. My corn comes finely ground and since it's only a gallon, it converts fast and gives the yeast 36-48 hrs to multiply and gain momentum. My starters get a 2gm slurry unless I've saved and washed a portion of yeast from the prior gallon. So far, (knock on wood) I've been able to ferment 60gal of mash (4-5 batches) from 1 packet of yeast. I also have had luck with 1.050 starters for use with 1.060-65 mashes.

My current wheated bourbon ferment auto-started during overnight cooling and smelled a bit sour. The S-04 cleaned it right up, but I'm wondering if there's a way to 'wash' adjunct grains prior to mashing in.

[Midwest]

Well I pitched some DADY no further activity. Increased temperature no activity, adjusted ph no activity. The wash will not move off 1.03. It has a real sour smell along with, some other funk I cant describe and a pucker sour taste. In my frustration I started another 30 gallon ferment. This time there was no wild yeast start, the temperature I was able to drop in a expedient manor and pitched DADY instead of US-05. I decided to use the DADY so I could get the yeast working sooner. I was able to pitch yeast at 87 degrees. The smell of this wash is awesome so far. It’s fermenting well and no issues so far.

The previous Wash is at 1.03 and I racked it off. Should I run it or dump it? It must have unfermentable sugars in it, although it has no sweet taste to it at all. I understand that long chain sugars can be harder to detect. Would running it on an electric still cause any potential scorching on the element if there is sugar in there? I have twenty five gallons of it, could I get some potential etho out of it.

[zapata]

It ain't hard to clean a boiler or element, so what's the worst that can happen if it scorches? You ruin it? That aint worse than throwin it away, and at least then you can let it sit on oak forever to see if it gets better. Id run it. But I love happy little unrepeatable accidents and never toss anything till it's sat around not drunk and not improved for years. Its what makes diy fun.

It's 4.5% abv, and tons of acid to make esters. There's booze in it. Potentially good booze.

[Midwest]

Then run it I will. I have a week or so until the next batch is ready. Hopefully by then my steam stripper will be done. Then no squeezing grain any more. Not that I have squeezed a lot of all grain, but what I have was not a lot of fun!

[Truckinbutch]

Just my opinion : Y'all complicate things too much by overthinking . I grind my grains to meal/flour texture . Cook them at high temp in a 30 gallon pot with a drill powered paddle mixer constantly stirring . You got to cook the hell out of that grain to bring the starch out for conversion .
90 min at temp with high temp enzyme and stir down to low temp enzyme level and cook another 90 minutes . Add 3/4 quart of crushed oyster shell , dump into a 32 gallon Brute and add enough water to fill/bring down to yeast pitch temp . Pitch the yeast and seal it off . It will be done when you want to use it beyond 9 days .

[ShineRunner]

Just to be clear, it’s at 1.030, not 1.003, right? I can’t imagine it’s all that sour at 1.030. You’re reading with a hydrometer, not a refractometer?

If it is at 1.030 and it’s done fermenting, then yes- run it. I’d warm it up slower than usual to try to minimize scorching. Get what you can and move on.

SR

[Midwest]

Yes 1.03 with the Hydrometer. it seemed that the initial wild yeast start just screwed me all up. At least that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. Trucking, I use about the same process you just described. I grind my corn to nearly meal and cook at high temp with enzymes for 90 minutes. I then add the back set that almost gets me to my second Enzyme temperature, ZI just have to wait an additional extra hour or two. At that point I let it rest until morning and with fans and the Ice in the gallon jugs dropped it to pitching temperature. The current batch I have is popping right along. On the last batch, the one we are talking about in this thread, I was having trouble getting it to cool. I had to leave it over night, a second night, to cool to 75 degrees so i could pitch US-05. That additional lag time gave the wild yeast a real big start there was a 6" grain cap on it in the morning. It had a real funky smell and was real sour after a week but the gravity was still reading 1.03 and no matter what I did could not get it started again. So that's when I started the new batch and just racked it. I'm gong to strip 10 gallons of it tonight ans see how it comes out.

[zapata]

If it were me I'd commit to it or not. Don't even judge the low wines. If you had a vinegar infection, could be lots of stinky ethyl acetate, no worries just deal with it via cuts on the spirit run. Or maybe you made other carboxylic acids that get entrained over in a fast stripping run, almost all of them are gross on their own, but let the magic of a double run and time have a go at them. Unless you somehow managed to make no ethanol at all, I'd just see it through. Even the strangest of brews can at least be blended later if done with care.

[TGCobb]

I had “ baby puke “ on the first run 13g water, 20 p,corn, 5 p barley 10 p sugar! Now I have added 2g backset, 12p light brown, 10 p sugar, 10 p corn (replacing spent corn) and 4 gallons of water at 140°, 6 g at 100.